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As most of you are aware, we had a crash to forums and were down for over two days a while back. We did have to do an upgrade to the vbulletin software to fix the forums and that has created changes, VB no longer provide the hybrid or threaded forums. There are some issues/changes to the forums we are not able to fix or change. Also note the link address change, please let friends and posters know of the changed link to the forums. For now this is the only link available, https://forums.carm.org/vb5/ but if clicking on forum on carm.org homepage it will now send you to this link. (edited to add https: now working.

Again, we are working through some of the posting and viewing issues to learn how to post with the changes, you will have to check and test the different features, icons that have changed. You may also want to go to profile settings,since many of the notifications, information in profile, also to update/edit your avatar by clicking on avatar space, pull down arrow next to login for user settings.

Edit to add "How to read forums, to make it easier."
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Diane S
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  • Originally posted by cas07 View Post

    Abortion is ok for learning disabled? Seriously? 1) learning disabilities arenít typically determined until school age (some earlier but many are not). And I canít even go on ton2) because that is such a ridiculous, indeed even evil, to abort.
    Do you believe that the bible is evil, given that pregnancies of adulteresses are commanded to be aborted (Numbers 5:20-28)?
    ... always look on the bright side of life - Idle Cleese

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    • Originally posted by cas07 View Post

      Abortion is ok for learning disabled? Seriously? 1) learning disabilities aren’t typically determined until school age (some earlier but many are not). And I can’t even go on ton2) because that is such a ridiculous, indeed even evil, to abort.
      I didn't make myself clear. I meant if the mother has a learning disability. This may mean that the fact she is pregnant may not come to life quickly and then there will be issues around capacity and who makes decisions for her. I didn't mean that the foetus has a learning disability.

      Most people are offered abortions when Downs syndrome is diagnosed. Whether it is taken up or not is a matter of choice, as with any other disability. I would never judge any person who felt incapable of bringing up a disabled child as evil. Even if you have been in that position yourself you have no right to judge others as their personality and circumstances will be different.
      Your belief in Julius Caesar proves the existence of God.
      CARM poster

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      • Originally posted by cas07 View Post

        So if itís not human before being born and alive, what is it? A cat? Or maybe a frog?
        It's still Homo sapiens, a human foetus. It's not my choice to use human being as a synonym for person, but there are some idiots here who think that dictionary definitions win arguments. I don't really care what you call it. The entity which inhabits the uterus and develops therein has no rights. The entity which has been safely delivered and lives outside the uterus, has rights. This remains the case whatever labels you tie on them.
        Your belief in Julius Caesar proves the existence of God.
        CARM poster

        Comment


        • Originally posted by cas07 View Post

          So if it’s not human before being born and alive, what is it? A cat? Or maybe a frog?
          If something is not "a human" (a noun), that does not imply that it is not "human" (an adjective). Examples: a human gamete, a human liver cell, a human embryo ..... It's just the sloppy English grammar which obscure the distinction between nouns and adjectives.

          But as Tolpuddlematyr tells us, labels do not really matter.


          Regards, HRG.

          "The universe doesn't care what happens to its inhabitants, but its inhabitants do" (Tyrrho).

          Comment


          • Originally posted by cas07 View Post

            So if it’s not human before being born and alive, what is it? A cat? Or maybe a frog?
            Forgive me for answering this twice. On reflection, there is more that I want to say. There is a difference between the unborn child and the born child, that is undeniable. The changes that occur at birth are not just those of location. The issue is whether or not these differences are sufficiently profound to deny rights to the unborn child that are not denied to the born child. You would argue that they are not. I would argue that they are.

            This is not primarily a religious issue. There are atheists who oppose abortion rights and Christians who support them.. Religiosity is an expansion pack to the core issue, important to some, but not an essential consideration.

            It is easy enough to identify the core problem, but reconciling the different positions, if that is even possible, is another matter. It will require, at a minimum, a recognition that there is honesty and sincerity on both sides. I know that I am guilty of making sarcastic and mocking posts towards some posters, but these tend to be those I deem hopelessly unreasonable and beyond sensible debate. Not that that is an excuse. I hope that your post is not meant to mock or that you consider me to be incapable of reasonable debate. If so, that would be disappointing, since I certainly don't regard you in that light, despite disagreeing with nearly everything you say.
            Your belief in Julius Caesar proves the existence of God.
            CARM poster

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            • Originally posted by Tolpuddlematyr View Post

              It's still Homo sapiens, a human foetus. It's not my choice to use human being as a synonym for person, but there are some idiots here who think that dictionary definitions win arguments. I don't really care what you call it. The entity which inhabits the uterus and develops therein has no rights. The entity which has been safely delivered and lives outside the uterus, has rights. This remains the case whatever labels you tie on them.
              You need to understand that there was never a law passed that said "the Human gametes lose all rights upon procreation."

              Because prior to leaving the body of the male, the sperm was not only alive, but had all the same rights as its producing adult Human.

              And you need to understand that all Humans share one flesh, and it is "Human Flesh" called "MAN." Male and Female made He them, and called their name Adam."

              And they are one flesh in Marriage;
              Gen 2: 23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. 24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

              And they are not part of any non-Human flesh:
              1 Cor 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

              And GOD decreed that all "Kinds" of created animal life would "bring forth after its own kind."

              Even the trees and grasses, and herbs replicated its own kind.Ā@

              KJV Genesis 1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

              KJV Genesis 1:12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

              KJV Genesis 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

              KJV Genesis 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

              KJV Genesis 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

              From the creation of Adam, to the birth of the latest Human, life has always been passed from one generation to the next in an unending and uninterrupted process so from Adam to You, life has always been processed from the earliest to the latest, without there being at any point "New life" introduced that was not the same life that was passed from an earlier generation all the way back to Adam.

              And there has been no law passed that can alter or change the physical facts of replication of the Human "Kind." The Egg and Sperm of procreation has every bit as much "Promise of life" as any person within the long line of Family, without break nor interruption.
              Some of this material has been posted by me on other websites.
              By law, I cannot plagiarize my own work. The burden of proof is on the accuser.
              If you accuse me of plagiarism, you will face it again at the judgment

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Tolpuddlematyr View Post

                A human is;
                a) Homo sapiens
                b) Born
                ​​​​​​c) Alive.

                So in other words I disagree that a human is killed in an abortion. 2 out of 3 is close, but no cigar.

                I also disagree that killing the foetus is the point of an abortion. The point is ending the pregnancy. Killing the foetus is collateral damage. You know, like when American air men shoot up and kill allies because they are too macho to bother learning how to recognise their vehicles. Or killing a hundred wedding guests because one of them might have been associated with the relative of a terrorist. If you want to concern yourself with deaths from collateral damage, then actual adult and children human beings are a more fitting object of your concern than an 8 week foetus.


                Perhaps, if someone was to convince you that if they lived, all these aborted foetuses would grow up to be Democrats and atheists, you would suddenly become pro-choice. Perhaps I am not quite convinced that you have any interest in discussing the matter in good faith. This is a 6 nations weekend. I have better things to do than dealing with religious people and their hang ups. If you don't like abortion, don't have one. If you don't like other people having abortions, tough.
                ​​​​​​
                I canít imagine you attempting to embarrass yourself more, but Iím sure youíll give it your best shot.

                Everyone knows that humans are being killed in abortion, thatís the entire point. The baby will be delivered either way so why does it need to be delivered DEAD?? Why canít the pregnancy be ended by delivering the baby alive versus killing it first?

                And if you donít like slavery, donít own one. What a brilliant argument.
                There are two main tenets of atheism. 1. There is no God. 2. I hate Him.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Tolpuddlematyr View Post
                  What a ridiculous statement!! No one, except possibly you, is suggesting that abortion be completely unregulated. You are erecting a strawman.
                  As recent as last week, three Democratic leaders put in for "after-birth abortion" laws. They would wait for the birth process to complete, make the baby "comfortable," after which the Mother and at least three doctors would have a conversation and decide whether to allow the baby to live, or die.

                  Some of this material has been posted by me on other websites.
                  By law, I cannot plagiarize my own work. The burden of proof is on the accuser.
                  If you accuse me of plagiarism, you will face it again at the judgment

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by HRG View Post
                    If something is not "a human" (a noun), that does not imply that it is not "human" (an adjective). Examples: a human gamete, a human liver cell, a human embryo ..... It's just the sloppy English grammar which obscure the distinction between nouns and adjectives.

                    But as Tolpuddlematyr tells us, labels do not really matter.
                    Word play will not help you. You are without excuse and demonstrably the most intellectually dishonest poster on these boards. While most are ignorant, you know exactly why your argument is fallacious.

                    You approve of and support killing humans in the womb, except strangely for some period of time late in pregnancy. Why? Why shouldnít the mother have the right to kill the ďparasiteĒ as youíve called it at 1, 10, 20, 30 or 36 weeks?

                    Will you tell us this time or run and hide?
                    There are two main tenets of atheism. 1. There is no God. 2. I hate Him.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by GatorTex View Post

                      I can’t imagine you attempting to embarrass yourself more, but I’m sure you’ll give it your best shot.

                      Everyone knows that humans are being killed in abortion, that’s the entire point. The baby will be delivered either way so why does it need to be delivered DEAD?? Why can’t the pregnancy be ended by delivering the baby alive versus killing it first?

                      And if you don’t like slavery, don’t own one. What a brilliant argument.
                      You do know what the word "terminate" means, don't you? It doesn't mean "wait until it stops naturally" If a pregnancy needs to end, the unborn child will be killed in the process. When it comes to abortion after 24 weeks I am with you entirely. Give live birth a chance.

                      I presume that you also know that, unlike slavery, abortion is legal.
                      Your belief in Julius Caesar proves the existence of God.
                      CARM poster

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by GatorTex View Post

                        Word play will not help you. You are without excuse and demonstrably the most intellectually dishonest poster on these boards. While most are ignorant, you know exactly why your argument is fallacious.

                        You approve of and support killing humans in the womb, except strangely for some period of time late in pregnancy. Why? Why shouldn’t the mother have the right to kill the “parasite” as you’ve called it at 1, 10, 20, 30 or 36 weeks?

                        Will you tell us this time or run and hide?
                        Because at 30 or 36 weeks the "parasite" is capable of living independently of the placenta. Terminating the pregnancy need not result in its death.
                        Your belief in Julius Caesar proves the existence of God.
                        CARM poster

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Theo Book View Post

                          As recent as last week, three Democratic leaders put in for "after-birth abortion" laws. They would wait for the birth process to complete, make the baby "comfortable," after which the Mother and at least three doctors would have a conversation and decide whether to allow the baby to live, or die.
                          Well they aren't posting here and those views are hardly mainstream. There are loonies on every side and a wide spectrum of positions, not just two. I suspect that the inability of your country to come to a sensible compromise is that the extremists on both sides refuse to cede a single step. Frankly your current abortion laws are appalling, only marginally better than the proposal to abolish them in toto. Other countries have solved this 50 years ago.
                          ​​​​
                          Your belief in Julius Caesar proves the existence of God.
                          CARM poster

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Tolpuddlematyr View Post

                            Well they aren't posting here and those views are hardly mainstream. There are loonies on every side and a wide spectrum of positions, not just two. I suspect that the inability of your country to come to a sensible compromise is that the extremists on both sides refuse to cede a single step. Frankly your current abortion laws are appalling, only marginally better than the proposal to abolish them in toto. Other countries have solved this 50 years ago.
                            ​​​​
                            Thank you for identifying yourself as our judge.

                            I was wondering to whom I should explain my errors of morality.

                            As for those views not being mainstream, when three leaders of the Democrat party take it as a position to introduce into the next Presidential Election, It has become as "MAINSTREAM" as it gets.
                            Some of this material has been posted by me on other websites.
                            By law, I cannot plagiarize my own work. The burden of proof is on the accuser.
                            If you accuse me of plagiarism, you will face it again at the judgment

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Tolpuddlematyr View Post

                              A human is;
                              a) Homo sapiens
                              b) Born
                              ​​​​​​c) Alive.

                              So in other words I disagree that a human is killed in an abortion. 2 out of 3 is close, but no cigar.

                              I also disagree that killing the foetus is the point of an abortion. The point is ending the pregnancy. Killing the foetus is collateral damage. You know, like when American air men shoot up and kill allies because they are too macho to bother learning how to recognise their vehicles. Or killing a hundred wedding guests because one of them might have been associated with the relative of a terrorist. If you want to concern yourself with deaths from collateral damage, then actual adult and children human beings are a more fitting object of your concern than an 8 week foetus.


                              Perhaps, if someone was to convince you that if they lived, all these aborted foetuses would grow up to be Democrats and atheists, you would suddenly become pro-choice. Perhaps I am not quite convinced that you have any interest in discussing the matter in good faith. This is a 6 nations weekend. I have better things to do than dealing with religious people and their hang ups. If you don't like abortion, don't have one. If you don't like other people having abortions, tough.
                              ​​​​​​
                              n>Wow. Looks somewhat like this sciency individual:

                              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josef_Mengele


                              .
                              Mouser Larry Roy: "yippee ki yay"
                              ď... see the loonies in their cagesÖ are they not wittyÖ how much amusement they affordÖ ours is a human world, theirs is a bestial worldÖ " Bedlam

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Theo Book View Post

                                You need to understand that there was never a law passed that said "the Human gametes lose all rights upon procreation"
                                You need to understand that human gametes have no more rights than human blood, human snot or human tears. All the parts of a human body, squishy and non-squishy, have unique functions. Gametes are part of the reproductive process. Whoopdeedoo. Faeces are part of the digestive process. Neither gametes nor faeces have rights.

                                You also need to understand that burying your argument in huge swathes of biblical verses is worse than useless I don't even bother to read them, and I doubt I am alone. I have quoted all of your text that I read. This one sentence was enough. When I stopped laughing, I deleted the rest to avoid wasting bandwidth. This is a secular subject on a secular discussion board. I understand that your views are shaped by the Bible, but mine are not, and never will be. You arent trying to persuade Bible readers. You are trying to persuade me and people like me. So I suggest you start by writing posts that I'm going to read.


                                Your belief in Julius Caesar proves the existence of God.
                                CARM poster

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