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Flood myth

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  • Flood myth

    For those who may be interested.

    According to archaeological investigations it would appear that incessant rain caused the Euphrates River to rise, overflow the levees, and flood Shuruppak and a few other cities in Sumer. A layer of yellow sediment deposited by this flood has been archaeologically attested, and artefacts at this sediment level have been radiocarbon dated.

    Two accounts of this event occur, one is in Sumerian and the other is in the Akkadian language, which is one of the ancient tongues of the Semitic language group to which Hebrew and the Arabic dialects belong. These accounts tells of the legend of a Sumerian king named Ziusudra who was chief executive of the city-state Shuruppak at the end of the Jemdet Nasr period about 2900 BC. It is generally accepted that the Epic of Gilgamesh derived from these two earlier sources of flood stories.

    The Gilgamesh Epic was among the famous collection of texts in the great library at Ninevah, founded by Ashurbanipal, at the end of the Assyrian Empire (668-626 BCE). The legend tells of Gilgamesh, the founder of the city of Uruk or Erech (modern day Tall al Warka in present day Iraq). According to the legend Gilgamesh made a long a difficult journey to discover how Utnapishtim (connected with the Biblical Noah) had acquired eternal life. In answer to Gilgamesh’s questions, Utnapishtim tells the following story. Once upon a time, the gods destroyed the ancient city of Shuruppah in a great flood. However, Utnapishtim is forewarned by Ea (the patron god of music) and manages to survive by building a great ship. Utnapishtim’s immortality was a gift bestowed by the repentant gods in recognition of his ingenuity and his faithfulness in reinstituting the sacrifice.

    I would also point out the oldest existing Sumerian versions of this poem date to c 2000 BCE.

    Christian apologists may squirm and wriggle all they wish, the evidence is quite clear. The Hebrew flood myth has its origins in Mesopotamia.
    On the evidence:

    If there were no Patriarchs, no Exodus, no conquest of Canaan, no united monarchy under David and Solomon. Can the early biblical Israel described in the books of Moses, Judges, Joshua, and Samuel, ever have existed at all?

  • #2
    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    For those who may be interested.

    According to archaeological investigations it would appear that incessant rain caused the Euphrates River to rise, overflow the levees, and flood Shuruppak and a few other cities in Sumer. A layer of yellow sediment deposited by this flood has been archaeologically attested, and artefacts at this sediment level have been radiocarbon dated.

    Two accounts of this event occur, one is in Sumerian and the other is in the Akkadian language, which is one of the ancient tongues of the Semitic language group to which Hebrew and the Arabic dialects belong. These accounts tells of the legend of a Sumerian king named Ziusudra who was chief executive of the city-state Shuruppak at the end of the Jemdet Nasr period about 2900 BC. It is generally accepted that the Epic of Gilgamesh derived from these two earlier sources of flood stories.

    The Gilgamesh Epic was among the famous collection of texts in the great library at Ninevah, founded by Ashurbanipal, at the end of the Assyrian Empire (668-626 BCE). The legend tells of Gilgamesh, the founder of the city of Uruk or Erech (modern day Tall al Warka in present day Iraq). According to the legend Gilgamesh made a long a difficult journey to discover how Utnapishtim (connected with the Biblical Noah) had acquired eternal life. In answer to Gilgamesh’s questions, Utnapishtim tells the following story. Once upon a time, the gods destroyed the ancient city of Shuruppah in a great flood. However, Utnapishtim is forewarned by Ea (the patron god of music) and manages to survive by building a great ship. Utnapishtim’s immortality was a gift bestowed by the repentant gods in recognition of his ingenuity and his faithfulness in reinstituting the sacrifice.

    I would also point out the oldest existing Sumerian versions of this poem date to c 2000 BCE.

    Christian apologists may squirm and wriggle all they wish, the evidence is quite clear. The Hebrew flood myth has its origins in Mesopotamia.
    Does this mean that Noah's Flood was local and not global? If so, that would be in line more with the Gap Theory of God's re-construction and further creation of heaven and earth.

    Mythology is usually based on something truthful and then twisted to satisfy pagan lusts.
    "But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ."

    2 Cor. 11:3

    Comment


    • #3
      Yes!! Satan wants to try to copy God and satan was witness to the great flood that rid the world of millions of his blinded sin lovers.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Exetazo View Post
        Does this mean that Noah's Flood was local and not global? If so, that would be in line more with the Gap Theory of God's re-construction and further creation of heaven and earth.

        Mythology is usually based on something truthful and then twisted to satisfy pagan lusts.
        I stated quite clearly the archaeological evidence of localised flooding in the Euphrates river that affected cities in Sumer.


        I think you are confusing myth and legend. Myths are generally held to be sacred stories explaining phenomena like the creation of the world, the origins of man, the origins of suffering (aka 'evil') and the origin of death. The early Greek theory of Euhemerism (derived from the mythographer Euemeros circa 400 BCE) was the first attempt to rationalise myths in a historical context by maintaining that the characters of myth had been real people whose deeds, abilities, and lives had been exaggerated and elaborated upon over time. Various Greek writers including Herodotus and Xenophanes took this view in some of their writings.

        Legends are stories that have built up around real people or are elaborated accounts of possible real people. In some ways similar to Euhemerism but deriving from the idea that the story is real if not actually authenticated.
        On the evidence:

        If there were no Patriarchs, no Exodus, no conquest of Canaan, no united monarchy under David and Solomon. Can the early biblical Israel described in the books of Moses, Judges, Joshua, and Samuel, ever have existed at all?

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by GISMYS View Post
          Yes!! Satan wants to try to copy God and satan was witness to the great flood that rid the world of millions of his blinded sin lovers.
          You need to re-read your OT. The Satan of the OT is god's prosecutor general sent to test the faithful to see if they will fall away from their religious beliefs.
          On the evidence:

          If there were no Patriarchs, no Exodus, no conquest of Canaan, no united monarchy under David and Solomon. Can the early biblical Israel described in the books of Moses, Judges, Joshua, and Samuel, ever have existed at all?

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
            You need to re-read your OT. The Satan of the OT is god's prosecutor general sent to test the faithful to see if they will fall away from their religious beliefs.
            That is his role in the book of Job, and genesis if Satan = serpent. Is that true of the rest of the OT?
            Can you cite verses please?

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Keith C View Post
              That is his role in the book of Job, and genesis if Satan = serpent. Is that true of the rest of the OT?
              Can you cite verses please?
              Firstly, no Satan in Genesis. It is the snake/serpent. Again this harks back to the Epic of Gilgamesh. In the second half of the epic Gilgamesh visits Utnapishtim (with whom the Biblical Noah is identified). Utnapishtim tells Gilgamesh of a plant that grows in the sea that will grant him immortality. After succeeding in getting the plant, Gilgamesh returns home and on his way stops to bathe. He leaves the plant on the edge of the water and it is stolen by a serpent that immediately sheds it skin. The snake has long been a symbol of immortality because of this ability to 'renew' itself.

              I don't want to reinvent the wheel so these may prove of interest.

              http://www.shamash.org/lists/scj-faq...faq/12-35.html

              http://www.jewishanswers.org/ask-the...-satan/?p=2566

              http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/13219-satan

              In the post-exilic period we begin to see Satan in Judaism becoming identified with the evil entity in Zorastrianism Angra Mainyu who is in a cosmic battle with the good entity Ahura Mazda. However, although dualistic Zorastrianism does have a monotheistic eschatology where, eventually in a final cosmic battle Ahura Mazda will overcome Angra Mainyu.

              It is clearly evident from where the Christian belief in Armageddon and the cosmic End Time conflict between God and Satan has developed.
              On the evidence:

              If there were no Patriarchs, no Exodus, no conquest of Canaan, no united monarchy under David and Solomon. Can the early biblical Israel described in the books of Moses, Judges, Joshua, and Samuel, ever have existed at all?

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                I stated quite clearly the archaeological evidence of localised flooding in the Euphrates river that affected cities in Sumer.


                I think you are confusing myth and legend. Myths are generally held to be sacred stories explaining phenomena like the creation of the world, the origins of man, the origins of suffering (aka 'evil') and the origin of death. The early Greek theory of Euhemerism (derived from the mythographer Euemeros circa 400 BCE) was the first attempt to rationalise myths in a historical context by maintaining that the characters of myth had been real people whose deeds, abilities, and lives had been exaggerated and elaborated upon over time. Various Greek writers including Herodotus and Xenophanes took this view in some of their writings.

                Legends are stories that have built up around real people or are elaborated accounts of possible real people. In some ways similar to Euhemerism but deriving from the idea that the story is real if not actually authenticated.
                Jesus rose from the dead. Is He myth or legend?
                "But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ."

                2 Cor. 11:3

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by GISMYS View Post
                  Yes!! Satan wants to try to copy God and satan was witness to the great flood that rid the world of millions of his blinded sin lovers.
                  Where does the bible say that Noah had millions of relatives who drowned, apart from Noah's sinful grandfather (Gen 5:27) and Noah's sinful mother (Gen 5:31) and Noah's sinful aunts & uncles & cousins (Gen 5:26) and Noah's sinful brothers & sisters (Gen 5:30) and Noah's hundreds of sinful children (Gen 5:32)? Maybe there were a few hundred of Noah's sinful family who drowned, but what is your evidence that Noah had millions of sinful relatives, or even thousands? Have you ever actually read the bible?
                  Last edited by juglans1; 12-02-15, 05:22 PM.
                  ... always look on the bright side of life - Idle Cleese

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                    Firstly, no Satan in Genesis.
                    "So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him." Rev. 12:7-9.

                    This scenario happened before Genesis 1:2b. Satan was already on earth before man was even created in God's image. Before any myths or legends.
                    "But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ."

                    2 Cor. 11:3

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Exetazo View Post
                      Jesus rose from the dead. Is He myth or legend?
                      And rotting corpses clambered out of their graves too and paraded in downtown Jerusalem (Matt 27:52-53). Is that myth or legend since there is no evidence of that happening either?
                      ... always look on the bright side of life - Idle Cleese

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Exetazo View Post
                        "So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him." Rev. 12:7-9.

                        This scenario happened before Genesis 1:2b. Satan was already on earth before man was even created in God's image. Before any myths or legends.
                        Although the scenario may well predate Genesis as you claim, given that Revelation post dates Genesis by anything from six to eight hundred years, this scarcely seems to strengthen the argument for references to Satan as Satan, not only in Genesis, but also in the OT as a whole.
                        Solidarité.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Exetazo View Post
                          Jesus rose from the dead. Is He myth or legend?
                          The first century Galilean Jewish holy man was, most scholars accept, real. The Christ Lord Jesus of Pauline Christianity is a theological construct.
                          On the evidence:

                          If there were no Patriarchs, no Exodus, no conquest of Canaan, no united monarchy under David and Solomon. Can the early biblical Israel described in the books of Moses, Judges, Joshua, and Samuel, ever have existed at all?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Leonardo View Post
                            Although the scenario may well predate Genesis as you claim, given that Revelation post dates Genesis by anything from six to eight hundred years, this scarcely seems to strengthen the argument for references to Satan as Satan, not only in Genesis, but also in the OT as a whole.
                            Well Revelation always has been a happy hunting ground for mystics and prophets!
                            On the evidence:

                            If there were no Patriarchs, no Exodus, no conquest of Canaan, no united monarchy under David and Solomon. Can the early biblical Israel described in the books of Moses, Judges, Joshua, and Samuel, ever have existed at all?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                              For those who may be interested.

                              According to archaeological investigations it would appear that incessant rain caused the Euphrates River to rise, overflow the levees, and flood Shuruppak and a few other cities in Sumer. A layer of yellow sediment deposited by this flood has been archaeologically attested, and artefacts at this sediment level have been radiocarbon dated.

                              Two accounts of this event occur, one is in Sumerian and the other is in the Akkadian language, which is one of the ancient tongues of the Semitic language group to which Hebrew and the Arabic dialects belong. These accounts tells of the legend of a Sumerian king named Ziusudra who was chief executive of the city-state Shuruppak at the end of the Jemdet Nasr period about 2900 BC. It is generally accepted that the Epic of Gilgamesh derived from these two earlier sources of flood stories.

                              The Gilgamesh Epic was among the famous collection of texts in the great library at Ninevah, founded by Ashurbanipal, at the end of the Assyrian Empire (668-626 BCE). The legend tells of Gilgamesh, the founder of the city of Uruk or Erech (modern day Tall al Warka in present day Iraq). According to the legend Gilgamesh made a long a difficult journey to discover how Utnapishtim (connected with the Biblical Noah) had acquired eternal life. In answer to Gilgamesh’s questions, Utnapishtim tells the following story. Once upon a time, the gods destroyed the ancient city of Shuruppah in a great flood. However, Utnapishtim is forewarned by Ea (the patron god of music) and manages to survive by building a great ship. Utnapishtim’s immortality was a gift bestowed by the repentant gods in recognition of his ingenuity and his faithfulness in reinstituting the sacrifice.

                              I would also point out the oldest existing Sumerian versions of this poem date to c 2000 BCE.

                              Christian apologists may squirm and wriggle all they wish, the evidence is quite clear. The Hebrew flood myth has its origins in Mesopotamia.
                              Sumer was motherland of Abraham.
                              AT-FIRST-IN-PRINCIPLE, he-created, AElohim (he caused to be, he brought forth in principle, HE-the-Gods, the Being-of-beings), the-selfsameness-of-heavens, and-the-selfsameness-of-earth. Translation of Genesis by Fabre d'Olivet.

                              Comment

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