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The race to Mars is on

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  • inertia
    started a topic The race to Mars is on

    The race to Mars is on

    Lockheed Martin and NASA


  • inertia
    replied
    Originally posted by Rockson View Post
    .....<snip>....And well I think it's fair that these moral and ethical snags should exist. Carrying out such experimentation might sound great as long as the end result is positive. Problem is though if it isn't the devastation that humanity would feel would be enormous. Shouldn't any human being (a fetus) have the right to decide if they want to be subjected to possible danger? If it was stamped acceptable to experiment with fetuses how could experimenters ever forgive themselves if things went amuck. Perhaps a Dr Frankenstein could but most people? I wouldn't think so.....
    Historically, I am betting that women have gone to battle willingly even though their developing human being within their bodies did not have a say whatsoever. Explorers will probably have similar characteristics.

    Technically speaking a strong magnetic field around Martian living quarters could shield from charged particles. We could even build them using robots.

    Last edited by inertia; 03-08-19, 11:58 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Rockson
    replied
    Originally posted by inertia View Post
    I cannot get past the first step above.

    - High-energy particles bombarding the Martian surface would almost certainly sterilize any fetus conceived.

    - Even low doses of radiation can kill or damage sperm, possibly leading to infertility. We already know that ionizing radiation can induce permanent genetic damage in stem cells.

    - Solar flares and galactic cosmic rays streaming charged particles can blow apart biological molecules such as DNA.
    Well that's interesting. I wonder how many people who have adventurists notions about living on Mars even are aware of this.


    Clearly, prisoners on Earth feel as if they are imprisoned. They learn how to deal with their environment.
    But of course prisoners on Earth are there because they deserve to be penalized or have their freedoms taken away. How could it be fair to subject an innocent person to such a diminished lifestyle that Mars would present?


    From National Geographic: Ethics and embryos
    A very interesting article.


    Performing that first experiment is technically simple enough, although mired in potential ethical snags. And while studying the precise effects of a space environment on human embryos is more difficult, it could feasibly be done today, except for an even bigger pile of moral and ethical snags.
    And well I think it's fair that these moral and ethical snags should exist. Carrying out such experimentation might sound great as long as the end result is positive. Problem is though if it isn't the devastation that humanity would feel would be enormous. Shouldn't any human being (a fetus) have the right to decide if they want to be subjected to possible danger? If it was stamped acceptable to experiment with fetuses how could experimenters ever forgive themselves if things went amuck. Perhaps a Dr Frankenstein could but most people? I wouldn't think so.

    Leave a comment:


  • inertia
    replied
    Originally posted by Rockson View Post
    ...<snip>....It's acknowledged for one thing that any candidates for the colony would have to pass through multiple stress tests to ensure they're psychologically capable. Because they're deemed able would that mean they're offspring would be? ...
    Good question

    One step at a time.

    You will probably agree that it is prudent for researchers to understand reproductive hazards long before the need to determine potential psychological stressors with children in future colonization.

    Tests with a variety of animals may help us understand the physical issues of Mars exploration.

    Originally posted by Rockson View Post
    ...<snip>....Imagine such a child born and years later begins to break under the grief of not being able to enjoy the many freedoms and pleasures of Earth. Freedoms of just like not having to wear protective suits with your breathable air attached to your back and a great many other enjoyments the people of Earth have. It's one thing for their parents to have signed on to this.....but the kids had no choice? What if they begin to wish they never had been born?...<snip>...
    I cannot get past the first step above.

    - High-energy particles bombarding the Martian surface would almost certainly sterilize any fetus conceived.

    - Even low doses of radiation can kill or damage sperm, possibly leading to infertility. We already know that ionizing radiation can induce permanent genetic damage in stem cells.

    - Solar flares and galactic cosmic rays streaming charged particles can blow apart biological molecules such as DNA.

    Originally posted by Rockson View Post
    ...<snip>....What if their mental state became one of complete depression even to the point where they wanted to end their existence? Could we the people of Earth ever forgive ourselves for putting other human beings in such a position? Now some might say when the explorers came to the "New World" of the west, North America children had to accept their fate, however wouldn't that be far different from asking human offspring to adopt to an existence of living on a dead, cold, airless world? (not of the breathable type anyway) No matter how big you could make these habitation places on Mars I contend you'd still feel you're living in a prison...<snip>...
    Clearly, prisoners on Earth feel as if they are imprisoned. They learn how to deal with their environment.

    From National Geographic: Ethics and embryos


    But deciding which experiment to perform depends on the goal posts, Nodler says, and whether we’re thinking a bit outside the frame of “normal” reproduction and potentially leaning on assisted technologies to produce a generation of Martians.

    “Is our end point to see if we send up a man and a woman, and they have sex, can they have a baby?” he asks. “Or do we want to say, can we take a whole bunch of embryos, freeze them on Earth, send them to Mars and thaw them?”

    Performing that first experiment is technically simple enough, although mired in potential ethical snags. And while studying the precise effects of a space environment on human embryos is more difficult, it could feasibly be done today, except for an even bigger pile of moral and ethical snags.

    Leave a comment:


  • Rockson
    replied
    Originally posted by inertia View Post
    Fast data collection from robotic resources is by definition, fragmentary, and this type of sampling alone cannot resolve the need for confirmed modelsto prevent wasting money and placing resources where they are needed most. Remember, it took fieldwork on the moon using men to personally inspect local terrainand geology to produce a model that we can count on.
    What that could be said of robotic systems in the late 60's and 70's....But what about today? And then there's the advancement of robotics in just the very short future.

    Let me ask you a question a few years ago some friends of mine were pondering over. It's more of a situation ethics type question in regard to setting up manned colonies on Mars. We were asking if this eventually goes ahead and some go to permanently inhabitant the Red Planet....should there not be a requirement that both male and females so going would have to be fixed so as neither male or female could ever produce children. Here's why. It's acknowledged for one thing that any candidates for the colony would have to pass through multiple stress tests to ensure they're psychologically capable. Because they're deemed able would that mean they're offspring would be?

    Imagine such a child born and years later begins to break under the grief of not being able to enjoy the many freedoms and pleasures of Earth. Freedoms of just like not having to wear protective suits with your breathable air attached to your back and a great many other enjoyments the people of Earth have. It's one thing for their parents to have signed on to this.....but the kids had no choice? What if they begin to wish they never had been born?

    What if their mental state became one of complete depression even to the point where they wanted to end their existence? Could we the people of Earth ever forgive ourselves for putting other human beings in such a position? Now some might say when the explorers came to the "New World" of the west, North America children had to accept their fate, however wouldn't that be far different from asking human offspring to adopt to an existence of living on a dead, cold, airless world? (not of the breathable type anyway) No matter how big you could make these habitation places on Mars I contend you'd still feel you're living in a prison.

    Leave a comment:


  • inertia
    replied
    Originally posted by Rockson View Post

    Enjoyed the video watched it twice. But this is what I mean Inertia. Instead of using manned spacecrafts and the enormous cost in that for even one manned mission to Mars, just think of how many robotic missions could be sent off all throughout the solar system, doing mining or even somehow re-directing asteroids possibly Earth bound.


    Oh yes. We agree that robotic exploration is necessary - even critical. This is especially true for deep solar system exploration. Even so, future commercial space transportation and exploration requires gaining enough understanding to validate precise models. Fast data collection from robotic resources is by definition, fragmentary, and this type of sampling alone cannot resolve the need for confirmed models to prevent wasting money and placing resources where they are needed most. Remember, it took fieldwork on the moon using men to personally inspect local terrain and geology to produce a model that we can count on.
    Last edited by inertia; 03-08-19, 01:15 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Rockson
    replied
    Originally posted by inertia View Post

    One step at a time. Exploration comes first:



    Mining next ---> Planetary Resources
    Enjoyed the video watched it twice. But this is what I mean Inertia. Instead of using manned spacecrafts and the enormous cost in that for even one manned mission to Mars, just think of how many robotic missions could be sent off all throughout the solar system, doing mining or even somehow re-directing asteroids possibly Earth bound.



    Leave a comment:


  • inertia
    replied
    Originally posted by Rockson View Post

    Well it's hard to say but whoever does they better have food that's out of this world! It's a long way to go for a lousy meal!
    One step at a time. Exploration comes first:



    Mining next ---> Planetary Resources

    Leave a comment:


  • inertia
    replied
    Originally posted by Rockson View Post

    I originally had to look up what STEM education meant which I did....

    Science, Technology, Engineering and Mathematics

    I felt my answer from 3) pretty well covered that in a sense so I left that out.



    We are different here. Manned space flight is becoming a commercial venture where exploration and innovation will thrive. At this juncture in history, it looks like NASA will not require the past funding responsibility leaving it more and more to the private sector. Don’t get me wrong here, robotic exploration will continue as a necessary element in space.

    Leave a comment:


  • Rockson
    replied
    Originally posted by inertia View Post
    I noticed that there was no comment about number 4 on the list.
    I originally had to look up what STEM education meant which I did....

    Science, Technology, Engineering and Mathematics

    I felt my answer from 3) pretty well covered that in a sense so I left that out.




    Leave a comment:


  • inertia
    replied
    Originally posted by Rockson View Post

    To adapt on Mars would be however an enormous undertaking. And how can you truly really adopt in a atmosphere that's not breathable and such very low air pressure. Plus the cold is colder than Antarctica. Just google psychological effect of living in Antarctica. People getting stressed out there do so even being able to go outside and breath the air and also knowing if things got real bad within days or a few short months they can be on their way back home. Not really so on Mars.



    I'd still settle up on robots to do that and robotics are getting more advanced with each passing day.



    I guess I can't buy that you couldn't be so inspired to push technology to it's limits and still stay around the Earth.



    Well we know it's possible now to go to Mars. The question is do the returns justify the expense and when I'm talking about going to Mars I'm talking about from the standpoint of sending humans there.



    Getting resources all the way from Mars wouldn't be worth it. One could probably make a better argument for that in using the Moon but even that has major problems.



    I'd say there's always ways and motivations to create jobs on the Earth.

    I'm not saying that Mars shouldn't be a part of some plan but even if your goal is some massive colonization of Mars as science fiction would portray it under big city Domes you'd still be better off letting robotics build such over the next 200 years. Or if mankind wants to just be rid of the thought that we haven't physically as people been there yet well create a mission to go there, plant a flag, do a few things and come back to the Earth. As enormous as the cost is sometimes humanity needs to do some things just for the thrill of saying we've done it.

    I noticed that there was no comment about number 4 on the list.

    Leave a comment:


  • Rockson
    replied
    Originally posted by inertia View Post

    Here is a list of reasons why humans should colonize Mars:

    1.) Survival of the species ( extinction events occur ) - Simply being elsewhere when an extinction event occurs increases our ability to readapt.
    To adapt on Mars would be however an enormous undertaking. And how can you truly really adopt in a atmosphere that's not breathable and such very low air pressure. Plus the cold is colder than Antarctica. Just google psychological effect of living in Antarctica. People getting stressed out there do so even being able to go outside and breath the air and also knowing if things got real bad within days or a few short months they can be on their way back home. Not really so on Mars.

    2.) Sentient beings ( humans ) are capable of making discoveries orders-of-magnitude faster. A discovery of current or past life on Mars, for example, would be a historic event.
    I'd still settle up on robots to do that and robotics are getting more advanced with each passing day.

    3.) Exploration used to improve the quality of life on Earth requires pushing technology to its limits and stimulates invention.
    I guess I can't buy that you couldn't be so inspired to push technology to it's limits and still stay around the Earth.

    5.) Advancing technology to do what used to be impossible provides direction for the next generation.
    Well we know it's possible now to go to Mars. The question is do the returns justify the expense and when I'm talking about going to Mars I'm talking about from the standpoint of sending humans there.

    6.) Obtaining resources that are limited on Earth instead of going to war over them is a better way to live and thrive in our solar system
    Getting resources all the way from Mars wouldn't be worth it. One could probably make a better argument for that in using the Moon but even that has major problems.

    7.) Jobs on Earth
    I'd say there's always ways and motivations to create jobs on the Earth.

    I'm not saying that Mars shouldn't be a part of some plan but even if your goal is some massive colonization of Mars as science fiction would portray it under big city Domes you'd still be better off letting robotics build such over the next 200 years. Or if mankind wants to just be rid of the thought that we haven't physically as people been there yet well create a mission to go there, plant a flag, do a few things and come back to the Earth. As enormous as the cost is sometimes humanity needs to do some things just for the thrill of saying we've done it.


    Leave a comment:


  • Rockson
    replied
    Originally posted by simplicio View Post
    But the real question is who will plant the first fast food restaurant on Mars or the moon!
    Well it's hard to say but whoever does they better have food that's out of this world! It's a long way to go for a lousy meal!

    Leave a comment:


  • inertia
    replied
    Originally posted by Rockson View Post

    I think a lot of politicians like to hit the Mars button from time to time to make it look like their being progressive. I don't think any of them are really serious about it though and I wonder if manned missions have any real purpose. Even if we were to be idealistic and dream of building Martian cities with Domes and the like well still would make a lot more sense to send out robotics to do the construction. Maybe once the Robots are done constructing such at 1/10th of the cost with no danger to human life man himself can go their and take over let's call it the Dome City. And doing all these things by robotics can get the job done a great deal faster as well.

    Actually I think this would make a good movie. Robots do all the work and build this new world and now many of them are upset man is just going to come in and take ownership. Perhaps you'd have a War take place where instead of "War of the Worlds" and Martians attacking Earth it really becomes "War of the Worlds II" humans attacking Mars! Humans become the aliens! Well a PEACE treaty would eventually take place where you end up having a Human World and a Robotic World in the solar system.
    Here is a list of reasons why humans should colonize Mars:

    1.) Survival of the species ( extinction events occur ) - Simply being elsewhere when an extinction event occurs increases our ability to readapt.

    2.) Sentient beings ( humans ) are capable of making discoveries orders-of-magnitude faster. A discovery of current or past life on Mars, for example, would be a historic event.

    3.) Exploration used to improve the quality of life on Earth requires pushing technology to its limits and stimulates invention.

    4.) Current exploration inspires people to keep seeking understanding through STEM education.

    5.) Advancing technology to do what used to be impossible provides direction for the next generation.

    6.) Obtaining resources that are limited on Earth instead of going to war over them is a better way to live and thrive in our solar system

    7.) Jobs on Earth

    Robotic exploration is needed too.

    Leave a comment:


  • simplicio
    replied
    In the sixties, the space race had two sides, US and USSR. Now there are multiple entrants in this race.

    One big difference was that before it was a project so monumental that only governments could enter the race, now there is quite a bit of private enterprise going on. And the problem becomes who owns the piece of real estate which is landed on? At one time the planted flag denoted ownership, but international treaties denied ownership of real estate beyond our atmosphere.

    But the real question is who will plant the first fast food restaurant on Mars or the moon!

    Leave a comment:

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