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Challenge to edit Atheists who Blame Christianity for Atrocities

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  • #46
    Originally posted by MarkUK View Post

    The OT has nothing to do with actual Christianity?
    Incorrect. Houses have foundations, but no one lives in the foundation.

    Signature? You want a signature? I'll show you a signature!
    John Hancock

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    • #47
      Originally posted by MarkUK View Post

      Matthew 5:18 - "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

      That's Jesus talking.

      Heaven and earth have not passed, so all the laws are still in effect. This means OT laws, so the OT is now fair game, and we can draw verses from anywhere we like.
      This is the problem with these gospel texts. In them we start to see the gradual split of Christianity from its parent religion and the different ideas among those early Christians, as the gospel of John makes clear.

      The gospel that carries the name of Matthew is generally dated to no earlier than 80 CE by which time the schism between the God-fearers and their fellow Jewish congregationalists was having its effect and by the end of the first century the two religions had split. However, it would take several more centuries for the Jewish Galilean holy man to be completely replaced by the theological construct that is first outlined in the writings of Paul.

      To really understand these texts we need to dig far deeper than what an English Bible translation gives us.

      And as a final comment, when we get the sort of literalist comments that we have seen by particular theists, you realise how well fitting the blinkers are.
      A CARM poster on the 1st century Hellenised world:

      "Paper, writing utensils, the very act of writing was rare and dear."

      "If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament"

      Gloria Steinem

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Kastewart View Post

        Those verses don't exist. Why then does Christianity have a bloody history?
        The guvernments took ownership of the churches and used the churches to extend their power.

        No different that a perp taking a gun from a cop and shooting the cop.

        The nation owned the church. The nations used the churches. You don't see atheists blame the country.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by stiggywiggy View Post

          Incorrect. Houses have foundations, but no one lives in the foundation.
          They live on the foundation.
          Dillahunty said it - that settles it.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by stiggywiggy View Post
            What Christian leaders? Give me a name or two.
            Pope Urban II

            Christian IV of Denmark

            Pope Sixtus IV

            Pope Innocent III

            Martin Luther

            John Calvin

            Charles the Great

            James I of England

            Their Most Catholic Majesties Ferdinand & Isabella of Spain

            Heinrich Kramer


            Just a few to be "going on with"!

            A CARM poster on the 1st century Hellenised world:

            "Paper, writing utensils, the very act of writing was rare and dear."

            "If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament"

            Gloria Steinem

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Kastewart View Post
              There isn't one.
              Correct.

              Originally posted by Kastewart View Post
              So what justification...
              There isn't any.

              Originally posted by Kastewart View Post
              Jesus Christ certainly didn't give this kind of 'direction', even non Christians know that. The Christians who justified war and murderousness made it all up. They sort of had to, as Jesus Christ provided relatively little direction except for an individual's proper relationship to him and/or God and your brethren. Over time, Christians have had to put a TON of stuff in Jesus's mouth to justify many things, and they continue to do so. This shouldn't be a revelation.
              It is not a revelation.

              Originally posted by Kastewart View Post
              The lack of 'direction' in the New Testament to kill enemies or infidels doesn't 'erase' that enemies and infidels are/were killed in the name of Christ.
              One simply cannot do something in Christ's name He never commanded to do in His name.

              One can claim it, yes.

              Originally posted by Kastewart View Post
              This is not a question to demand of non Christians, it's a question for Christians to ask themselves! As if not finding a scripture in the NT means Christianity is off the hook! As if modern Christians (well, True ones ) can dismiss past slaughter committed as being done by Untrue Christian Christians.

              Modern Christians have their own problems, no one here is 'blaming' past slaughterings done in the name of Christ on modern Christians.
              I have no issue saying the Roman Catholic church is awash with evil deeds, for example.
              "The beautiful cry of 'Death to America' unites our nation."
              Hassan Rouhani, President of Iran

              “An atheist has to know a lot more than I know. An atheist is someone who knows there is no God.”
              Carl Sagan

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              • #52
                Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                Pope Urban II

                Christian IV of Denmark

                Pope Sixtus IV

                Pope Innocent III

                Martin Luther

                John Calvin

                Charles the Great

                James I of England

                Their Most Catholic Majesties Ferdinand & Isabella of Spain

                Heinrich Kramer


                Just a few to be "going on with"!
                Whoops. You forgot two things. First give your evidence that these people advocated slaughtering people, and then for those who did, give your evidence that they were Christians.

                Signature? You want a signature? I'll show you a signature!
                John Hancock

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by MarkUK View Post

                  They live on the foundation.
                  You're saying that the house is synonymous with its foundation?
                  Signature? You want a signature? I'll show you a signature!
                  John Hancock

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by stiggywiggy View Post

                    Whoops. You forgot two things. First give your evidence that these people advocated slaughtering people, and then for those who did, give your evidence that they were Christians.
                    I have given you the names - do your own research.
                    A CARM poster on the 1st century Hellenised world:

                    "Paper, writing utensils, the very act of writing was rare and dear."

                    "If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament"

                    Gloria Steinem

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                      I have given you the names - do your own research.
                      I did. I found no Christian listed advocating slaughtering people. So why did you lie?
                      Signature? You want a signature? I'll show you a signature!
                      John Hancock

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by stiggywiggy View Post

                        I did. I found no Christian listed advocating slaughtering people. So why did you lie?
                        Really? So Luther and Calvin were not Christians?

                        How about three Popes? Or James I of England? You do not consider them Christians either? They thought they were.
                        A CARM poster on the 1st century Hellenised world:

                        "Paper, writing utensils, the very act of writing was rare and dear."

                        "If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament"

                        Gloria Steinem

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                          Really? So Luther and Calvin were not Christians?.
                          Nope. I believe they were. Therefore get busy searching for those quotes from them which you claim exist, advocating the slaughter of infidels.
                          Signature? You want a signature? I'll show you a signature!
                          John Hancock

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Kastewart View Post

                            They sure did. And Christianity continues to be politicized. Most major world religions are, depending on the native religion of the nation in question. In America today, modern conservatism is basically married to Christianity, Christians even divide themselves into 'liberal' vs 'conservative' Christians without a second thought. I'd like to know what scripture(s) in the NT tell Christians to identify with conservative politics vs liberal politics? I wonder what scriptures in the NT direct Christians to deny human-caused climate change and which scriptures support nationalism, or protest against taxation, or involving themselves in any way in the World's scramble to elect presidents and senators?

                            There aren't any scriptures in the NT that support the Christian Right's endeavors to use the government to enforce certain Christian religious doctrines against same sex marriage either.

                            So demanding the skeptics and atheists to come up with a scripture from the NT that directed Christianity's past war mongering and slaughter of heretics and infidels is looking kind of ridiculous at this point. Christians, including modern ones, don't take their direction from the NT for ways of being Christian they take completely for granted. Lets' see those scriptures telling Christians to vote. How about scriptures that direct Christians to get law degrees and become politicians? How about a scripture that directs Christians to support or refuse support for a presidential candidate, or attempt to undermine, even verbally, a current president? This whole thread is a joke.
                            Christ Jesus was making a point about His teaching to be detatched from this world, kind of like Buddhism.
                            AT-FIRST-IN-PRINCIPLE, he-created, AElohim (he caused to be, he brought forth in principle, HE-the-Gods, the Being-of-beings), the-selfsameness-of-heavens, and-the-selfsameness-of-earth. Translation of Genesis by Fabre d'Olivet.

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by stiggywiggy View Post

                              Read the epistle to the Romans and the Hebrews. Educate yourself on the difference between the Old Covenant and the New. Then maybe you'll understand why Jesus quoted the OT and followed it up with, "BUT I say unto you."

                              Then you can go back to muttering idiotic comments about Abraham's meals and Adam's cloning.
                              What on earth has Romans or Hebrews got to do with what Jesus said in Matt 5:17-18, that OT law applies until heaven and earth pass. Educate yourself on the difference between what Jesus said and what Paul said since they never met and Jesus wrote nothing.
                              ... always look on the bright side of life - Idle Cleese

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by juglans1 View Post
                                Matt 5:17-18, that OT law applies until heaven and earth pass.
                                Your evidence is?
                                "darwin/nature is an ever-receding pocket of scientific ignorance"óme

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