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Challenge for anyone who wants to prevent our German lady from having to eat crow

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  • Challenge for anyone who wants to prevent our German lady from having to eat crow

    She had claimed that Calvin and Luther justified Christians killing Muslims and pagans. Thus far she has been unable to provide evidence for this. Can anyone help her out?

    Signature? You want a signature? I'll show you a signature!
    John Hancock

  • #2
    Originally posted by stiggywiggy View Post
    She had claimed that Calvin and Luther justified Christians killing Muslims and pagans. Thus far she has been unable to provide evidence for this. Can anyone help her out?
    And killing and persecuting Jews and anti-Semitism too

    ... always look on the bright side of life - Idle Cleese

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by stiggywiggy View Post
      She had claimed that Calvin and Luther justified Christians killing Muslims and pagans. Thus far she has been unable to provide evidence for this. Can anyone help her out?
      Both Luther and Calvin supported witchcraft trials.

      In Christianity, so-called witches are usually deemed to be "pagans".
      Howlers:
      Ancient Literacy "Paper, writing utensils, the very act of writing was rare and dear."

      Romantic Love "I
      did not say that romantic love is endemic to all human beings. I said it's endemic to humanity."

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
        Both Luther and Calvin supported witchcraft trials.
        Unsupported - still no evidence for your claims.
        "darwin/nature is an ever-receding pocket of scientific ignorance"óme

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by juglans1 View Post
          And killing and persecuting Jews and anti-Semitism too
          This has as much evidence as your claim "creation is a myth".
          "darwin/nature is an ever-receding pocket of scientific ignorance"óme

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by ferengi View Post

            This has as much evidence as your claim "creation is a myth".
            Here you are ferengi. Martin Luther (translated) from his The Jews and their Lies

            Now just behold these miserable, blind, and senseless people ... their blindness and arrogance are as solid as an iron mountain.

            Learn from this, dear Christian, what you are doing if you permit the blind Jews to mislead you. Then the saying will truly apply, "When a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into the pit" [cf. Luke 6:39]. You cannot learn anything from them except how to misunderstand the divine commandments...


            Therefore be on your guard against the Jews knowing that wherever they have their synagogues, nothing is found but a den of devils in which sheer self *glory, conceit, lies, blasphemy, and defaming of God and men are practiced most maliciously and veheming his eyes on them.

            Moreover, they are nothing but thieves and robbers who daily eat no morsel and wear no thread of clothing which they have not stolen and pilfered from us by means of their accursed usury. Thus they live from day to day, together with wife and child, by theft and robbery, as arch*thieves and robbers, in the most impenitent security.

            However, they have not acquired a perfect mastery of the art of lying; they lie so clumsily and ineptly that anyone who is just a little observant can easily detect it. But for us Christians they stand as a terrifying example of God's wrath.

            If I had to refute all the other articles of the Jewish faith, I should be obliged to write against them as much and for as long a time as they have used for inventing their lies** that is, longer than two thousand years.

            ...Christ and his word can hardly be recognized because of the great vermin of human ordinances. However, let this suffice for the time being on their lies against doctrine or faith. What shall we Christians do with this rejected and condemned people, the Jews? Since they live among us, we dare not tolerate their conduct, now that we are aware of their lying and reviling and blaspheming. If we do, we become sharers in their lies, cursing and blasphemy. Thus we cannot extinguish the unquenchable fire of divine wrath, of which the prophets speak, nor can we convert the Jews. With prayer and the fear of God we must practice a sharp mercy to see whether we might save at least a few from the glowing flames. We dare not avenge ourselves. Vengeance a thousand times worse than we could wish them already has them by the throat. I shall give you my sincere advice:

            First to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians, and do not condone or knowingly tolerate such public lying, cursing, and blaspheming of his Son and of his Christians. For whatever we tolerated in the past unknowingly * and I myself was unaware of it * will be pardoned by God. But if we, now that we are informed, were to protect and shield such a house for the Jews existing right before our very nose, in which they lie about, blaspheme, curse, vilify, and defame Christ and us (as was heard above), it would be the same as if we were doing all this and even worse ourselves, as we very well know.

            Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed. For they pursue in them the same aims as in their synagogues. Instead they might be lodged under a roof or in a barn, like the gypsies. This will bring home to them that they are not masters in our country, as they boast, but that they are living in exile and in captivity, as they incessantly wail and lament about us before God.

            Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them. [...]

            Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb. For they have justly forfeited the right to such an office by holding the poor Jews captive with the saying of Moses (Deuteronomy 17 [:10 ff.]) in which he commands them to obey their teachers on penalty of death, although Moses clearly adds: "what they teach you in accord with the law of the Lord." Those villains ignore that. They wantonly employ the poor people's obedience contrary to the law of the Lord and infuse them with this poison, cursing, and blasphemy. In the same way the pope also held us captive with the declaration in Matthew 16 **:18], "You are Peter," etc, inducing us to believe all the lies and deceptions that issued from his devilish mind. He did not teach in accord with the word of God, and therefore he forfeited the right to teach.

            Fifth, I advise that safe*conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews For they have no business in the countryside, since they are not lords, officials, tradesmen, or the like. Let they stay at home.[...]

            Sixth, I advise that usury be prohibited to them, and that all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them and put aside for safekeeping. The reason for such a measure is that, as said above, they have no other means of earning a livelihood than usury, and by it they have stolen and robbed from us all they possess. Such money should now be used in no other way than the following: Whenever a Jew is sincerely converted, he should be handed one hundred, two hundred, or three hundred florins, as personal circumstances may suggest. With this he could set himself up in some occupation for the support of his poor wife and children, and the maintenance of the old or feeble. For such evil gains are cursed if they are not put to use with God's blessing in a good and worthy cause.

            Seventh, I commend putting a flail, an ax, a hoe, a spade, a distaff, or a spindle into the hands of young, strong Jews and Jewesses and letting them earn their bread in the sweat of their brow, as was imposed on the children of Adam (Gen 3[:19]}. For it is not fitting that they should let us accursed Goyim toil in the sweat of our faces while they, the holy people, idle away their time behind the stove, feasting and farting, and on top of all, boasting blasphemously of their lordship over the Christians by means of our sweat. No, one should toss out these lazy rogues by the seat of their pants.

            [...]

            But what will happen even if we do burn down the Jews synagogues and forbid them publicly to praise God, to pray, to teach, to utter God's name? They will still keep doing it in secret. If we know that they are doing this in secret, it is the same as if they were doing it publicly. for our knowledge of their secret doings and our toleration of them implies that they are not secret after all and thus our conscience is encumbered with it before God. [...]

            Accordingly, it must and dare not be considered a trifling matter but a most serious one to seek counsel against this and to save our souls from the Jews that is, from the devil and from eternal death. My advice, as I said earlier, is:

            First, that their synagogues be burned down, and that all who are able toss in sulphur and pitch; it would be good if someone could also throw in some hellfire. That would demonstrate to God our serious resolve and be evidence to all the world that it was in ignorance that we tolerated such houses, in which the Jews have reviled God, our dear Creator and Father, and his Son most shamefully up till now but that we have now given them their due reward.

            I wish and I ask that our rulers who have Jewish subjects exercise a sharp mercy toward these wretched people, as suggested above, to see whether this might not help (though it is doubtful). They must act like a good physician who, when gangrene has set in, proceeds without mercy to cut, saw, and burn flesh, veins, bone, and marrow. Such a procedure must also be followed in this instance. Burn down their synagogues, forbid all that I enumerated earlier, force them to work, and deal harshly with them, as Moses did in the wilderness, slaying three thousand lest the whole people perish. They surely do not know what they are doing; moreover, as people possessed, they do not wish to know it, hear it, or learn it. There it would be wrong to be merciful and confirm them in their conduct. If this does not help we must drive them out like mad dogs, so that we do not become partakers of their abominable blasphemy and all their other vices and thus merit God's wrath and be damned with them. I have done my duty. Now let everyone see to his. I am exonerated. "

            [,,,]My essay, I hope, will furnish a Christian (who in any case has no desire to become a Jew) with enough material not only to defend himself against the blind, venomous Jews but also to become the foe of the Jews malice, lying, and cursing, and to understand not only that their belief is false but that they are surely possessed by all devils. May Christ, our dear Lord, convert them mercifully and preserve us steadfastly and immovably in the knowledge of him, which is eternal life. Amen.


            Howlers:
            Ancient Literacy "Paper, writing utensils, the very act of writing was rare and dear."

            Romantic Love "I
            did not say that romantic love is endemic to all human beings. I said it's endemic to humanity."

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by ferengi View Post

              Unsupported - still no evidence for your claims.
              Luther, in his 1522 sermon, charged the "witches" with a litany of supernatural behaviors, including transformation into different animals, accusations which, to the rationally thinking mind, would be ludicrous indeed. This further demonstrates that Luther's motive for breaking away from the Catholic Church was not to defend freedom of individual thought, but to establish a religious orthodoxy of his own.

              Luther, in addition to his intense anti-Semitism, strived to encourage the adoption of his version of Protestantism as the state-sponsored religion of numerous German principalities, at the expense of the religious freedoms of those principalities' citizens. His intolerance extended even to the Zwinglians in Switzerland, with whom he exhibited only a minor disagreement over transubstantiation. Luther would undoubtedly have been eager to use the fear of witches as yet another weapon to direct mass hostility against those whose views diverged with his own.

              John Calvin's description of witches in the Institutes of the Christian Religion even more transparently revealed his true motives of combating dissension from his version of Protestantism. Calvin draws, from his passage on witchcraft, the conclusion that "we have to wage war against an infinite number of enemies." Calvin might have included under this category anyone who did not conform to the dicta of his strict church government in Geneva.

              Calvin's policy was to stringently oversee people's private lives, church attendance, and intellectual expression, and ensure that nothing they said or did would displease God. It should therefore come as no surprise that Geneva experienced a far larger number of witch hunts than most other major European cities.
              Howlers:
              Ancient Literacy "Paper, writing utensils, the very act of writing was rare and dear."

              Romantic Love "I
              did not say that romantic love is endemic to all human beings. I said it's endemic to humanity."

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                Here you are ferengi. Martin Luther (translated) from his The Jews and their Lies
                Unsupported. No references or proof Luther ever said this.
                Still can't present evidence your claims are true.
                "darwin/nature is an ever-receding pocket of scientific ignorance"óme

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                  Luther, in his 1522 sermon....
                  Unsupported. No references or proof Luther ever said this.
                  Still can't present evidence your claims are true.
                  "darwin/nature is an ever-receding pocket of scientific ignorance"óme

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by ferengi

                    Still can't present evidence your claims are true.
                    Well if the man's own words do not convince you, there is nothing that will.
                    Howlers:
                    Ancient Literacy "Paper, writing utensils, the very act of writing was rare and dear."

                    Romantic Love "I
                    did not say that romantic love is endemic to all human beings. I said it's endemic to humanity."

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                      Well if the man's own words.....
                      Still no evidence those were his words.
                      "darwin/nature is an ever-receding pocket of scientific ignorance"óme

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by ferengi View Post

                        Still no evidence those were his words.
                        So whose words were they?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                          Well if the man's own words do not convince you, there is nothing that will.
                          Amazing how this poster doesn't subject their own beliefs to the same level of hyper-skepticism. I wonder if they have any idea (or even care) how they appear to others.
                          Last edited by dneh; 01-10-17, 05:11 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by ferengi View Post

                            Still no evidence those were his words.
                            Nor that the NT contains the words of Jesus of Nazareth.

                            Yet you believe a translation from the Greek to be accurately reporting the words of a Galilean Jew. How very droll.
                            Howlers:
                            Ancient Literacy "Paper, writing utensils, the very act of writing was rare and dear."

                            Romantic Love "I
                            did not say that romantic love is endemic to all human beings. I said it's endemic to humanity."

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by dneh View Post
                              So whose words were they?
                              Shifting the burden.
                              "darwin/nature is an ever-receding pocket of scientific ignorance"óme

                              Comment

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