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Atheists thought immoral, even by fellow atheists: study

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  • #91
    Originally posted by JamesTheLesser View Post

    You should. We can explore the differences between meaning in this universe, and meaning towards pop tarts, because they remind you of your childhood.

    They aren't the same things.

    The former you won't find, the latter is conjured every day.
    Do you have any desire to respond to post #78? You have not yet defended why the bible should be considered as a moral standard in light of the examples given. No point in beginning another discussion when you are already showing me that you prefer to avoid issues that challenge your beliefs.
    Salvation belongs to God

    Comment


    • #92
      Originally posted by Bluemayskye View Post
      ...showing me that you prefer to avoid issues that challenge your beliefs.
      And you hardly present a challenge. Feel better?

      If you want to discuss naturalism, in this naturalist forum, I will. Otherwise, tootles.
      “An atheist has to know a lot more than I know. An atheist is someone who knows there is no God.”
      Carl Sagan

      God is love.

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by JamesTheLesser View Post

        And you hardly present a challenge. Feel better?

        If you want to discuss naturalism, in this naturalist forum, I will. Otherwise, tootles.
        The conversation had to do with comparing the validity of our source of morals: naturalism vs biblical. Are you suggesting we should discuss one side of the conversation here and the other side of the same conversation elsewhere? If so, I am not interested in jumping through hoops just to have a discussion that includes both sides of an argument.
        Salvation belongs to God

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        • #94
          Originally posted by Bluemayskye View Post

          The conversation had to do with comparing the validity of our source of morals: naturalism vs biblical. Are you suggesting we should discuss one side of the conversation here and the other side of the same conversation elsewhere? If so, I am not interested in jumping through hoops just to have a discussion that includes both sides of an argument.
          The conversation has to do with: Atheists thought immoral, even by fellow atheists: study

          Now, we can address it if you want, try to figure out why it may be. I have some ideas.

          I would agree it is one sided, because it is....well.....one sided.

          Yet again another opportunity for you to do a new thread, call it Spy vs Spy maybe, or Naturalism vs Christianity, I don't know, pick something.
          “An atheist has to know a lot more than I know. An atheist is someone who knows there is no God.”
          Carl Sagan

          God is love.

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by JamesTheLesser View Post

            The error in your thinking is I stated more than meaning and purpose to this universe.
            The above is ambiguous, it could mean two different things, what exactly do you mean.

            Originally posted by JamesTheLesser View Post
            Read more carefully.
            Do try to be more clear.

            Originally posted by JamesTheLesser View Post
            And yes, you've arrived.
            Well no, because I don't think the universe is devoid of meaning and purpose.


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            • #96
              Originally posted by Whatsisface View Post
              Well no, because I don't think the universe is devoid of meaning and purpose.
              For one, no objective morality equals, no objective meaning and no objective purpose.
              “An atheist has to know a lot more than I know. An atheist is someone who knows there is no God.”
              Carl Sagan

              God is love.

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by JamesTheLesser View Post

                For one, no objective morality equals, no objective meaning and no objective purpose.
                How do you get from, no objective morality, meaning and purpose, to, therefore no morality, meaning and purpose?



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                • #98
                  Originally posted by Whatsisface View Post
                  How do you get from, no objective morality, meaning and purpose, to, therefore no morality, meaning and purpose?
                  Objective is real.

                  Subjective is a nice way to say let us pretend it matters.

                  Does our Sun care whether it goes supernova and obliterates the earth? No, it does not.
                  Does the earth care if it opens wide and swallows you up. No it does not.
                  Does even a bear care if it flips its paw and knocks your head off? No, it does not.

                  Nothing in the universe cares about us, in naturalism. We invent our own meaning, our own importance, our own arrogance over our own importance.

                  What that means is you must put all your notions and thoughts into perspective. A perspective that is as small as the universe is big, it's that tiny.

                  And so it is simple logic, if there be no meaning to this universe, then there is no purpose to operate with meaning, and certainly no morality to govern it.

                  You can act like it, sure. However, it was already figured out a long time ago.

                  Meaningless, meaningless, says the Preacher.

                  To those fully persuaded there be no God, then truly, eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die.
                  “An atheist has to know a lot more than I know. An atheist is someone who knows there is no God.”
                  Carl Sagan

                  God is love.

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by JamesTheLesser View Post

                    Objective is real.
                    Yes. For example, it's objectively true the Earth orbits the Sun. But, It's also subjectively true, and real, that I prefer red wine to white.

                    Originally posted by JamesTheLesser View Post
                    Subjective is a nice way to say let us pretend it matters.

                    Does our Sun care whether it goes supernova and obliterates the earth? No, it does not.
                    Does the earth care if it opens wide and swallows you up. No it does not.
                    Does even a bear care if it flips its paw and knocks your head off? No, it does not.
                    But I, we, care. For example, if I save a life. It matters to me, it matters to the person who's life I've saved and his friends and family. We aren't pretending it matters, it does matter to us.

                    Originally posted by JamesTheLesser View Post
                    Nothing in the universe cares about us, in naturalism.
                    But we care, and on naturalism we are part of the universe.

                    Originally posted by JamesTheLesser View Post
                    We invent our own meaning, our own importance, our own arrogance over our own importance.
                    That's only half the story. A lot of what gives our lives meaning comes from our nature and we didn't invent that. For example, having children can give our lives great meaning and purpose. Then there are so many things that we find of interest that are fulfilling and satisfying to us. Learning a musical instrument can bring great satisfaction, which gives our lives purpose and meaning even if the rest of the universe doesn't care.

                    Originally posted by JamesTheLesser View Post
                    What that means is you must put all your notions and thoughts into perspective. A perspective that is as small as the universe is big, it's that tiny.
                    I disagree with your premises that lead you to this, as above.

                    Originally posted by JamesTheLesser View Post
                    And so it is simple logic, if there be no meaning to this universe, then there is no purpose to operate with meaning, and certainly no morality to govern it.
                    Your committing that fallacy again, the fallacy of division. A fallacy of division occurs when one reasons logically that something true for the whole must also be true of all or some of its parts. In other words, that because there is no meaning to the universe as a whole, that must mean there is no meaning to our lives as part of the whole. That is fallacious thinking.

                    Our nature gives us meaning and purpose, and the things our reason has given us, like music for example, curiosity, the ability to find things out about the universe we find ourselves in is enormously fulfilling and satisfying, giving our lives meaning and purpose.

                    Originally posted by JamesTheLesser View Post
                    To those fully persuaded there be no God, then truly, eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die.
                    Well, in moderation, else you would die sooner than otherwise,

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Whatsisface View Post
                      But I, we, care. For example, if I save a life. It matters to me, it matters to the person who's life I've saved and his friends and family. We aren't pretending it matters, it does matter to us.
                      But naturally, you don't care. Your interest is artificial and not cold, like an earthquake is.
                      A Tiger has no concern for the lives of your family. It eats what is handy. Naturally.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by LeoTheLibrarian View Post

                        But naturally, you don't care.
                        You can't read my mind. I do care, naturally.

                        Originally posted by LeoTheLibrarian View Post
                        Your interest is artificial and not cold, like an earthquake is.
                        A Tiger has no concern for the lives of your family. It eats what is handy. Naturally.
                        Are you a meat eater?

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by LeoTheLibrarian View Post
                          But naturally, you don't care. Your interest is artificial and not cold, like an earthquake is.
                          A Tiger has no concern for the lives of your family. It eats what is handy. Naturally.
                          What a tiger has concern for has nothing to do with the issue. Atheists care; they have purpose. That alone makes the claims that atheism=nihilism false.
                          "We've been attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of the culture." - Rev. Ray Mummert, arguing for creationism against evolutionary theory

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Whatsisface View Post

                            You can't read my mind. I do care, naturally.
                            He might have meant, "your caring isn't a natural phenomenon" rather than "of course, you don't really care."
                            I promise that if you treat me as a reasonable person -- someone who is open to good arguments and clear explanations -- I will treat you as one in return.

                            If, on the other hand, you don't consider me a reasonable person, why would you want to talk to me, and why would I want to listen to you?

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Electric Skeptic View Post
                              What a tiger has concern for has nothing to do with the issue. Atheists care; they have purpose. That alone makes the claims that atheism=nihilism false.
                              I don't see anyone claim atheism=nihilism, therefore straw argument.
                              “An atheist has to know a lot more than I know. An atheist is someone who knows there is no God.”
                              Carl Sagan

                              God is love.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Whatsisface View Post

                                Yes. For example, it's objectively true the Earth orbits the Sun. But, It's also subjectively true, and real, that I prefer red wine to white.

                                But I, we, care. For example, if I save a life. It matters to me, it matters to the person who's life I've saved and his friends and family. We aren't pretending it matters, it does matter to us.

                                But we care, and on naturalism we are part of the universe.

                                That's only half the story. A lot of what gives our lives meaning comes from our nature and we didn't invent that. For example, having children can give our lives great meaning and purpose. Then there are so many things that we find of interest that are fulfilling and satisfying to us. Learning a musical instrument can bring great satisfaction, which gives our lives purpose and meaning even if the rest of the universe doesn't care.
                                Oh the universe doesn't care, you can be sure of that.

                                Conjured meaning by a human is not objective.

                                I disagree with your premises that lead you to this, as above.

                                Your committing that fallacy again, the fallacy of division. A fallacy of division occurs when one reasons logically that something true for the whole must also be true of all or some of its parts. In other words, that because there is no meaning to the universe as a whole, that must mean there is no meaning to our lives as part of the whole. That is fallacious thinking.

                                Our nature gives us meaning and purpose, and the things our reason has given us, like music for example, curiosity, the ability to find things out about the universe we find ourselves in is enormously fulfilling and satisfying, giving our lives meaning and purpose.

                                Well, in moderation, else you would die sooner than otherwise,
                                Your "nature", while more than a bear, also falsely leads you to believe it more than a bear. That is the arrogance part your nature gives you. Perhaps the bear thinks the earth was made for him?

                                You keep claiming you care, but you give no objective reason why it matters whatsoever, as I've already told you that humans conjure meaning, and it is meaning from nothing. No matter how hard you try, you try to extract meaning from meaninglessness.

                                While atheism doesn't necessitate nihilism, it also has to differentiate itself, and you are not saying anything that helps.
                                “An atheist has to know a lot more than I know. An atheist is someone who knows there is no God.”
                                Carl Sagan

                                God is love.

                                Comment

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