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Why did Jesus die?

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  • Originally posted by highrigger View Post
    The reason why God sent Jesus is that someone had to teach us the Gospel Message of Gods Love and Forgiveness.
    Nope. No one had to do anything. God is omnipotent and makes the rules. No one can tell God he has to send his son to Earth. God could have appeared and told us himself. He could have sent Jesus as a teacher but not demanded his bloody sacrifice. God could have taught us about love any way he wanted to because he's God!

    God chose to send his son to be tortured to death. I'm sorry but there is no other way to see that once you claim God is omnipotent.
    Humata, Hukhta, Huvarshta (Good Thoughts, Good Words, Good Deeds) - Zoroaster

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Lighthearted Athiest View Post

      The God required the blood of his own son. That is not a God of love. That's a psychopath.
      Not a valid interpretation. God sent Jesus to provide to us the Gospel Message of His love and forgiveness.

      You are trying to read some intent by God other than what Jesus taught. Jesus gave His life to get that Gospel Message across to us.

      Col. 1:15 "Jesus is the image of the Hidden God."

      Jesus did not teach that God is omnipotent as you claim.

      Funny thing is that my friend Nietzsche understands Jesus to teach just the opposite.

      "And an image of God was spread which was as far removed
      as possible from the image of the most powerful --
      the god on the cross."
      Nietzsche, Notes (1884)

      As I continue to say, my friend Nietzsche understands quite well what Jesus taught. You do not.

      I continue to urge you to understand God through the life and teachings of Jesus and not what someone told you.

      As you must understand by now, neither I nor Nietzsche consider the God of Jesus to be omnipotent.

      In fact I will quote my friend Paul on that. "Divine folly is wiser than man and divine weakness stronger than man's strength"

      1 Cor. 1:25. God is NOT omnipotent. Rather He appears weak and foolish. His strength is of another nature.

      You may easily reject Him and cast away that Holy strength He offers you. He urges you not to do that.

      JohnR
      Last edited by highrigger; 12-06-18, 12:21 PM.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by highrigger View Post

        Not unique, rather very traditional. For example the most famous bible guys and Christians in history who taught the same thing.

        Gods Law - "You shall have no other gods to rival me" Exodus 20:3

        Jesus - " Where your treasure is, there is your heart also." "God is Spirit"

        Paul - "Indeed, there are many gods and many lords" 1 Cor. 8:5

        Martin Luther - "Trust and faith of the heart alone make god and idol ...Whatever then thy heart clings to and relies upon, that is properly your god."

        Linus of Peanuts - A god is all we have to keep us going."

        My own Methodist church teaches One True God meaning there are many but only ONE is worthy of your devotion. ALL the others will destroy you.

        This is classic Christian teaching. My friend Nietzsche agrees in many gods. (An idol is a false god)

        "There are more idols than realities in the world....
        there are no more puffed-up idols and none more hollow.
        That does not prevent them from being those in which
        people have the most faith; nor does one ever say
        'idol' especially not in the most distinguished
        instance.
        Nietzsche, Twilight of the Idols.

        Nobody wants to admit they have idols.

        JohnR

        Great post. Thank you. I always thought the talk of many Gods contradicted the Biblical idea of one God. What are the other gods that Christians believe in? Did the Christian God create them since he created everything in the universe?
        Humata, Hukhta, Huvarshta (Good Thoughts, Good Words, Good Deeds) - Zoroaster

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Lighthearted Athiest View Post

          Great post. Thank you. I always thought the talk of many Gods contradicted the Biblical idea of one God. What are the other gods that Christians believe in?
          A "god" (Biblcally) is anyONE, or anyTHING you SERVE. Mine were Tobacco for years, and Radio-Control aircraft.

          There are any number of them - hobbies, power, fame, riches, authority, sex, alcohol, narcotics, internet, Careers, automobiles, sports, etc. The ONE GOD couldn't care less what you've GOT, but is VERY CONCERNED about what's GOT YOU.

          The ONE GOD doesn't look favorably on us serving OTHER gods of our own manufacture.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Lighthearted Athiest View Post

            I always thought the talk of many Gods contradicted the Biblical idea of one God.
            Then you just got educated. You ARE learning after all. There are many elohim, one Jehovah, aka Jesus Christ.

            What are the other gods that Christians believe in?

            Bob covered that. Stick around and you can get that learning you claim you're after.

            Did the Christian God create them since he created everything in the universe?
            Yes, He created myriads of supernatural beings. There is a vast unseen realm.
            Signature? You want a signature? I'll show you a signature!
            John Hancock

            Comment


            • Originally posted by highrigger View Post
              Jesus taught that we must repent and believe. So recognize your need to change and believe the Gospel Message of Gods love and forgiveness.

              Jesus expressed the love of God by forgiving people and relieving them of their guilt.

              What I plainly believe about God is found in the life and teachings of Jesus. No more and No less.
              Whose love and forgiveness? Until you can explain what you mean by 'God' this is entirely meaningless.

              Apparently your God has the ability to love and forgive in the present tense. So how can it then be anything other than a supernatural being?
              "I'd rather have questions I cannot answer than answers I cannot question" – Tegmark

              Comment


              • Originally posted by highrigger View Post
                You may define tradition as you please but the fact is that Christianity is what Jesus taught.
                No, you can't just define the tradition however you please. Traditional Christianity is defined by what the majority of Christians throughout history have actually believed, and that isn't the position which you are advocating.

                Originally posted by highrigger View Post
                There are multiple opinions about Christianity but only One Jesus. Read His life and teachings if you want to understand the facts of Christianity.
                Sure, there was only one Jesus. But there are likewise multiple opinions about what constitute his life and teachings.

                Originally posted by highrigger View Post
                Col. 1:15. "Jesus is the image of the Hidden God."
                You still haven't explained what you think this means.
                "I'd rather have questions I cannot answer than answers I cannot question" – Tegmark

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Spacemonkey View Post
                  No, you can't just define the tradition however you please. Traditional Christianity is defined by what the majority of Christians throughout history have actually believed, and that isn't the position which you are advocating.


                  Sure, there was only one Jesus. But there are likewise multiple opinions about what constitute his life and teachings.


                  You still haven't explained what you think this means.
                  I don't think you really know what the majority of Christians think. How could you? Regardless the majority could be wrong. Christianity is what Jesus taught. They should
                  all agree on that anyway.

                  So what? Everyone has a right to their opinion. One can only read what He taught and come to their own conclusion. I have mine and it is not complicated.

                  God is Love because Jesus was Love.

                  To say Jesus is the image of the Hidden God plainly means that there is no other definition or proof or description of Who is the God that Jesus taught.

                  He is revealed in the life and teachings of Jesus. Period. End of story.

                  You are free to accept Him and believe Him or not. Your choice. He wants to deal with you face to face and free you and make you whole.

                  JohnR

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Spacemonkey View Post
                    Whose love and forgiveness? Until you can explain what you mean by 'God' this is entirely meaningless.

                    Apparently your God has the ability to love and forgive in the present tense. So how can it then be anything other than a supernatural being?
                    Love is not supernatural. Jesus taught an Eternal and Loving God. That means He Loves today and forever more.

                    You are free to come to your own conclusions. I disagree with the supernatural thing.

                    JohnR

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Lighthearted Athiest View Post

                      Great post. Thank you. I always thought the talk of many Gods contradicted the Biblical idea of one God. What are the other gods that Christians believe in? Did the Christian God create them since he created everything in the universe?
                      The BIble teaches many gods. . In fact God demands in Exodus 20:3 "You shall have no other gods to rival me."

                      No cause for such a demand unless there were many to choose from. Scripture says King David had several.

                      A god is not a created thing unless we get the credit for creating our own gods. It is our devotion for something that makes it a god.

                      Martin Luther explained it this way. Trust and faith of the heart alone make both God and idol. ..Whatever then thy heart clings to and relies upon,

                      that is properly thy god."

                      The one exception is the One True God. We did not make him. He revealed Himself to us through Jesus.

                      JohnR

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Spacemonkey View Post
                        No, it's not opinion or a matter of what is easy to disprove. The tradition is defined by the actual beliefs of the vast majority of actual Christians throughout history. It is not established by a quote from a cartoon strip.
                        The majority can be wrong. Nietzsche noticed that all Christianities are not the same. He distinguished as I have explained.

                        He detested one and loved another (the one Jesus taught) Which is the vast majority? I think that Linus of Peanuts gives the correct

                        definition of a god.

                        "A god is all you have to keep you going"

                        In fact lets consider Nietzsche's definition again.

                        "There are more idols than realities in the world....
                        there are no more puffed-up idols and none more hollow.
                        That does not prevent them from being those in which
                        people have the most faith; nor does one ever say
                        'idol' especially not in the most distinguished
                        instance.
                        Nietzsche, Twilight of the Idols.

                        In fact Nietzsche said he could believe in a god if that god could dance.

                        "I would believe only in a god who could dance."
                        Nietzsche, On Reading and Writing.

                        I can find such a god somewhere. Why don't you challenge me?

                        Oh never mind I will prove it now anyway. Why have mysteries?

                        "He will rejoice over you with happy song;
                        He will renew you by His love.
                        He will dance with shouts of joy for you."
                        Zephaniah 3:17.

                        Nietzsche knew the OT very well. No doubt he read this. He loved to play with our minds.

                        He wanted to make us think and to inquire deeply as he obviously had done. .

                        No doubt he had found a God he could believe in even if the other one is dead.

                        JohnR
                        Last edited by highrigger; 12-06-18, 06:31 PM.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by highrigger View Post
                          I don't think you really know what the majority of Christians think. How could you?
                          How could you? You're the one claiming your position represents traditional Christianity. Go discuss this with other CARM Christians and see how many of them deny the divinity of Jesus and the supernatural status of a universe-creating God. Go read the writings of Christians throughout history and see what they thought. Don't just stop at the first quote or two that agrees with your position, but keep reading to see what the majority thought. That's the tradition.

                          Originally posted by highrigger View Post
                          Regardless the majority could be wrong. Christianity is what Jesus taught. They should all agree on that anyway.
                          But there is no agreement on what Jesus taught. Your view on that is very clearly a minority position, and your position on God seems incoherent.

                          Originally posted by highrigger View Post
                          God is Love because Jesus was Love.
                          Literally? So Jesus did not exist as an historical person, but was actually a human emotion? Note that emotions don't love and forgive people. People do.

                          Originally posted by highrigger View Post
                          To say Jesus is the image of the Hidden God plainly means that there is no other definition or proof or description of Who is the God that Jesus taught.
                          How does it mean that? And how does this say anything at all about what God actually is?

                          Originally posted by highrigger View Post
                          You are free to accept Him and believe Him or not. Your choice. He wants to deal with you face to face and free you and make you whole.
                          Who are you talking about here? God or Jesus (or both)? Jesus died 2,000yrs ago so he cannot have any such desires or abilities in the present tense. And if you're saying God has such desires and abilities then he must be more than just a human emotion.
                          "I'd rather have questions I cannot answer than answers I cannot question" – Tegmark

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by highrigger View Post
                            Love is not supernatural. Jesus taught an Eternal and Loving God. That means He Loves today and forever more.

                            You are free to come to your own conclusions. I disagree with the supernatural thing.
                            I can't just invent my own conclusions about what you believe. You'll have to tell me. Are you saying that 'God' is literally just a human emotion? That you are just saying God is a loving love that loves? That would be a category error, as emotions themselves do not express emotion. People do. You keep saying you reject the supernatural, but then make claims about God that become nonsensical without a supernatural reading. This isn't consistent.
                            "I'd rather have questions I cannot answer than answers I cannot question" – Tegmark

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by highrigger View Post
                              The majority can be wrong. Nietzsche noticed that all Christianities are not the same. He distinguished as I have explained. He detested one and loved another (the one Jesus taught) Which is the vast majority? I think that Linus of Peanuts gives the correct definition of a god.
                              Again, Nietzsche was critical of Jesus. Again, quoting a cartoon strip does not give you the majority view of traditional Christianity.

                              Originally posted by highrigger View Post
                              In fact Nietzsche said he could believe in a god if that god could dance.
                              Emotions don't dance.



                              "I'd rather have questions I cannot answer than answers I cannot question" – Tegmark

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Spacemonkey View Post
                                Again, Nietzsche was critical of Jesus. Again, quoting a cartoon strip does not give you the majority view of traditional Christianity.


                                Emotions don't dance.


                                You never showed me where Nietzsche was critical of Jesus. I showed you many quotes where he admired him and passed along his message.

                                I never said that Linus represented the majority of Christians. I am sure there are times in history when most Christians were very much misled.

                                In the middle ages Christians were not allowed to read the bible. At other times they have been misled by bad dogmas. In fact those may be the ones that Nietzsche

                                called bad Christianity and detested. May also be the god he called dead. Many possibilities.

                                Nietzsche was the one who said he would believe in a god who could dance, not me. I also think that Jesus was more than just an emotion.

                                You are trying hard to make a point but failing every time. Oh well. I think Nietzsche would recommend that you inquire, inquire, inquire.

                                JohnR

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