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The issue of why God created people who go to hell.

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  • Originally posted by MarkUK View Post

    You answered one of my questions, but not this one:

    If you knew in advance that a child you would create would end up in hell after they died, would you have said child?

    If you had answered it I wouldn't be asking again.
    I reject the question because #1, I haven't the power to create children, and # 2 I haven't the ability to see in advance what the child would choose to do.
    If he had meant to cast you away he would have done so long ago. If he wanted reasons for rejecting you he had reasons from all eternity, for he knew what you would be. No sin in you has been a surprise to him. — C.H. Spurgeon

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    • Originally posted by Zaphod View Post
      Nope. I have never said that anyone chooses their beliefs. Try to pay attention.
      OK. So Christians don't choose their beliefs but they are compelled to believe what they believe based upon the compelling truth of the evidence for their belief; is that right?

      Originally posted by Zaphod
      Huh? What are you talking about? I have been gracious and charitable to your claims the entire time.
      Thank you for being gracious and charitable, Zaphod.
      If he had meant to cast you away he would have done so long ago. If he wanted reasons for rejecting you he had reasons from all eternity, for he knew what you would be. No sin in you has been a surprise to him. — C.H. Spurgeon

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      • Originally posted by Howie View Post
        OK. So Christians don't choose their beliefs but they are compelled to believe what they believe based upon the compelling truth of the evidence for their belief; is that right?
        Nope. Please go back and read what I wrote. They are compelled. How are they compelled? We’ve literally been through the mechanism four times.

        Thank you for being gracious and charitable, Zaphod.
        Yep

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Zaphod View Post
          Nope. Please go back and read what I wrote. They are compelled. How are they compelled? We’ve literally been through the mechanism four times.
          Why are they compelled one way, but not the other way, Zaphod?

          If he had meant to cast you away he would have done so long ago. If he wanted reasons for rejecting you he had reasons from all eternity, for he knew what you would be. No sin in you has been a surprise to him. — C.H. Spurgeon

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Howie View Post
            Your first statement is my point. NO ONE is compelled to believe or not believe that Jesus Christ exists or does not exist in the same way EVERYONE is compelled to believe that 1 + 1 = 2.

            The truth of 1 + 1 =2 must be accepted, unlike the choice that one must make regarding the existence or non-existence of Jesus Christ based upon the available evidence. Therefore, Whatsisface's "logic" isn't applicable in this context, but it "sux" (as it almost always does regarding theology, IMO).

            That's all...
            Your contention was that belief in God is a choice, as said above. The logic of 1+1=2 is absolute and inescapable so you don't choose to believe it, you're compelled to believe it. Are you acknowledging that at last now?

            The way atheists view evidence in general and the so called evidences for God in particular means that they cannot go against where their view of the evidences inevitably leads them, ie I cannot believe in God, in the same way as it's inevitable for them that 1+1=2.

            The conclusion atheists come to is inevitable for them rather than a choice, as 1+1=2 is inevitable and not a choice.
            "My own suspicion is that the universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose." JBS Haldane.

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            • Originally posted by Howie View Post
              Why are they compelled one way, but not the other way, Zaphod?
              Because belief is compelled by a number of factors. People tend to believe what they are told from someone they trust.

              You have a friend or family member that you trust greatly. Imagine that person tells you he bumped the garbage can with his car yesterday. You’ll probably believe that report because you are compelled by the evidence of his character as you have previously determined. I never saw my grandmothers dead body, but I was compelled to believe she died by the actions of my family and her church members and the funeral service and the actions taken by those who serve when combine has died.

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              • Originally posted by Howie View Post
                I reject the question because #1, I haven't the power to create children, and # 2 I haven't the ability to see in advance what the child would choose to do.
                That's what the "if" was for - assume you can create children and you have the ability, then answer.

                (If you want to say "no", but don't want to make Yahweh look like a tool for doing exactly that, feel free not to answer.)
                Dillahunty said it - that settles it.

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                • Originally posted by Whatsisface View Post
                  Your contention was that belief in God is a choice, as said above. The logic of 1+1=2 is absolute and inescapable so you don't choose to believe it, you're compelled to believe it. Are you acknowledging that at last now?
                  I've never denied it.

                  Originally posted by Whatsisface
                  The way atheists view evidence in general and the so called evidences for God in particular means that they cannot go against where their view of the evidences inevitably leads them, ie I cannot believe in God, in the same way as it's inevitable for them that 1+1=2.

                  The conclusion atheists come to is inevitable for them rather than a choice, as 1+1=2 is inevitable and not a choice.
                  OK. I see that. I believe it's semantics.

                  I can believe in God in the same way that I believe 1 + 1 = 2.
                  If he had meant to cast you away he would have done so long ago. If he wanted reasons for rejecting you he had reasons from all eternity, for he knew what you would be. No sin in you has been a surprise to him. — C.H. Spurgeon

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by MarkUK View Post

                    That's what the "if" was for - assume you can create children and you have the ability, then answer.

                    (If you want to say "no", but don't want to make Yahweh look like a tool for doing exactly that, feel free not to answer.)
                    My answering your question has no bearing upon what Yahweh, "looks like" to you, or to me. That's an appeal to emotion.

                    I've heard your positions about God for decades now, mkay?

                    Further, I believe the Scripture's position is that, as a result of the fall, you cannot believe in God unless/until He gives you the ability to believe in Him. So, God did create people He knew would go to hell because of His choice not to save them.

                    Does that alter your opinion of God at all?

                    How about me; does that alter your opinion of me at all?
                    Last edited by Howie; 07-11-19, 04:42 PM.
                    If he had meant to cast you away he would have done so long ago. If he wanted reasons for rejecting you he had reasons from all eternity, for he knew what you would be. No sin in you has been a surprise to him. — C.H. Spurgeon

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Howie View Post
                      I've never denied it.

                      OK. I see that. I believe it's semantics.

                      I can believe in God in the same way that I believe 1 + 1 = 2.
                      Exactly. You have been compelled to beleive as you do.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Howie View Post
                        I've never denied it.
                        But you repeatedly ignored it with no explanation as to why.

                        Originally posted by Howie View Post
                        OK. I see that.
                        That's great. But I've been saying "that" all along.

                        Originally posted by Howie View Post
                        I can believe in God in the same way that I believe 1 + 1 = 2.
                        Then by you own admission above you don't choose to, which is what you claimed for yourself and atheists all along.
                        "My own suspicion is that the universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose." JBS Haldane.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Whatsisface View Post
                          But you repeatedly ignored it with no explanation as to why.
                          And by that you were compelled to believe that I denied it. Compelled wrongly.

                          Originally posted by Whatsisface
                          Then by you own admission above you don't choose to, which is what you claimed for yourself and atheists all along.
                          No. We both choose our positions.
                          If he had meant to cast you away he would have done so long ago. If he wanted reasons for rejecting you he had reasons from all eternity, for he knew what you would be. No sin in you has been a surprise to him. — C.H. Spurgeon

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Zaphod View Post

                            Exactly. You have been compelled to beleive as you do.
                            We both (atheists and Christians) choose what we believe, Zaphod.
                            If he had meant to cast you away he would have done so long ago. If he wanted reasons for rejecting you he had reasons from all eternity, for he knew what you would be. No sin in you has been a surprise to him. — C.H. Spurgeon

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Howie View Post
                              No. We both choose our positions.
                              I said...
                              The way atheists view evidence in general and the so called evidences for God in particular means that they cannot go against where their view of the evidences inevitably leads them, ie I cannot believe in God, in the same way as it's inevitable for them that 1+1=2.

                              The conclusion atheists come to is inevitable for them rather than a choice, as 1+1=2 is inevitable and not a choice.
                              To which you replied...
                              OK. I see that.
                              You now seem to be going back on that by saying belief is a choice, after agreeing it wasn't. You are contradicting yourself.
                              "My own suspicion is that the universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose." JBS Haldane.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Whatsisface View Post
                                You now seem to be going back on that by saying belief is a choice, after agreeing it wasn't. You are contradicting yourself.
                                By definition and logic, belief is a choice.

                                If he had meant to cast you away he would have done so long ago. If he wanted reasons for rejecting you he had reasons from all eternity, for he knew what you would be. No sin in you has been a surprise to him. — C.H. Spurgeon

                                Comment

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