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  • My position

    I stated the below comment on another post this morning.
    I did so because it's quite clear that numerous people who are opposed to YHVH, and Jesus think this forum is their own private wet dream, and anyone who doesn't agree with their views are lying, wrong, dismissive of their beliefs or just being downright malicious towards them.

    So....

    My position is that anyone smart enough to hang out on a Christian forum with a sub forum dedicated to the interaction with a specific people group would actually want to know God and Jesus and engage with them, so that they may enjoy eternal life and the forgiveness of their sin.

    Those who do not want those things are setting themselves up for a condemnation so great, so terrible, so horrendous that they are in every sense of the word committing suicide.


    You're in a world on this forum where the principle is based on the bible.

    We get that you disagree about it.

    We get that you've decided that you have proven what no one else in nearly 2000 years has ever been able to actually accomplish.

    We get that you believe that you are totally justified in your views.

    We further understand that you have convinced yourselves that the principles that apply to the people who have actually met God don't really apply to you.

    We further understand still that under no circumstances whatsoever should you be held accountable for anything you hear about here.

    And further still,
    We understand that you think there are numerous deities that are being discussed here.

    I and several others who are talking about Jesus are talking explicitly about YHVH, wYHVhas clearly expressed himself as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. One God, in 3 distinct personalities.


    The ideas that we who follow Jesus discuss are specific to the bible.

    We are not going to talk about what others think. They're more than capable of handling those things themselves.

    so telling us that others disagree with us does not help you nor give greater credence to your opinions.

    If you don't actually want to know God, then while that is indeed your choice, it doesn't help you with an argument.

    The gospel is not a philosophical construct for debating its interpretations.

    the gospel of Jesus is about the creator reaching into the world and engaging with the human race on terms he's defined. It's a living relationship with God and humanity.

    The gospel of Jesus applies to 100% of the human race, on a global basis.
    Every single human being who has heard it, will ever hear it is culpable for what they've heard.

    So, you have to decide whether or not you want to know God.

    It's a simple question and while the answer of yes becomes more detailed, and taking the position of being a student is imperative, the answer of no leaves a very simple issue, which is a very gruesome and unpleasant situation.

    Your attempts to argue the merits of your disagreements do not help you.

    As one poster noted the other day,

    The gospel of Jesus is for the people who recognize that they are spiritually broken and are in need of the only person who has the power to heal them and make them whole.

    The whole reason for the gospel is the human race has been broken due to the sin of Adam.
    this brokenness, the present state of being for the human race results in each and every single human being violating the law of God, aka, the ten commandments.

    Having a false view of God, worshipping beings that are not God, slandering the true God, having a false view of ourselves, and treating ourselves in a manner that endangers our lives and humanity. And having a false view of others with whom we interact, and relate. This false view results in treating them improperly.

    This means that no matter how hard you try to do it right, from this moment forward, what you've already done before has resulted in your being cut off from God and this needs to be resolved before anything else can be successfully achieved.

    So, you choose.

    What matters more to you?

    Being right, or being made whole by God.

    God is real. He can be known. You only cheat yourself by giving what you call reasons, and are nothing more than excuses. There's an old saying:
    an excuse is nothing more than a skin of reason, over a skeleton of lies.

  • #2
    Originally posted by SteveB View Post
    I stated the below comment on another post this morning.
    I did so because it's quite clear that numerous people who are opposed to YHVH, and Jesus think this forum is their own private wet dream, and anyone who doesn't agree with their views are lying, wrong, dismissive of their beliefs or just being downright malicious towards them.

    So....

    My position is that anyone smart enough to hang out on a Christian forum with a sub forum dedicated to the interaction with a specific people group would actually want to know God and Jesus and engage with them, so that they may enjoy eternal life and the forgiveness of their sin.

    Those who do not want those things are setting themselves up for a condemnation so great, so terrible, so horrendous that they are in every sense of the word committing suicide.


    You're in a world on this forum where the principle is based on the bible.

    We get that you disagree about it.

    We get that you've decided that you have proven what no one else in nearly 2000 years has ever been able to actually accomplish.

    We get that you believe that you are totally justified in your views.

    We further understand that you have convinced yourselves that the principles that apply to the people who have actually met God don't really apply to you.

    We further understand still that under no circumstances whatsoever should you be held accountable for anything you hear about here.

    And further still,
    We understand that you think there are numerous deities that are being discussed here.

    I and several others who are talking about Jesus are talking explicitly about YHVH, wYHVhas clearly expressed himself as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. One God, in 3 distinct personalities.


    The ideas that we who follow Jesus discuss are specific to the bible.

    We are not going to talk about what others think. They're more than capable of handling those things themselves.

    so telling us that others disagree with us does not help you nor give greater credence to your opinions.

    If you don't actually want to know God, then while that is indeed your choice, it doesn't help you with an argument.

    The gospel is not a philosophical construct for debating its interpretations.

    the gospel of Jesus is about the creator reaching into the world and engaging with the human race on terms he's defined. It's a living relationship with God and humanity.

    The gospel of Jesus applies to 100% of the human race, on a global basis.
    Every single human being who has heard it, will ever hear it is culpable for what they've heard.

    So, you have to decide whether or not you want to know God.

    It's a simple question and while the answer of yes becomes more detailed, and taking the position of being a student is imperative, the answer of no leaves a very simple issue, which is a very gruesome and unpleasant situation.

    Your attempts to argue the merits of your disagreements do not help you.

    As one poster noted the other day,

    The gospel of Jesus is for the people who recognize that they are spiritually broken and are in need of the only person who has the power to heal them and make them whole.

    The whole reason for the gospel is the human race has been broken due to the sin of Adam.
    this brokenness, the present state of being for the human race results in each and every single human being violating the law of God, aka, the ten commandments.

    Having a false view of God, worshipping beings that are not God, slandering the true God, having a false view of ourselves, and treating ourselves in a manner that endangers our lives and humanity. And having a false view of others with whom we interact, and relate. This false view results in treating them improperly.

    This means that no matter how hard you try to do it right, from this moment forward, what you've already done before has resulted in your being cut off from God and this needs to be resolved before anything else can be successfully achieved.

    So, you choose.

    What matters more to you?

    Being right, or being made whole by God.
    The people you refer to as having met god - what proof do they have?
    As far as being right or being made whole by god is concerned, if we are right, then there is no god/s.
    With all the conflicting religious beliefs in the world, they can’t all be right. But they can all be wrong.
    Herb Silverman.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by SteveB View Post
      I stated the below comment on another post this morning.
      I did so because it's quite clear that numerous people who are opposed to YHVH, and Jesus think this forum is their own private wet dream, and anyone who doesn't agree with their views are lying, wrong, dismissive of their beliefs or just being downright malicious towards them.
      You are quick to insult for mere disagreement.

      Originally posted by SteveB View Post
      So....

      My position is that anyone smart enough to hang out on a Christian forum with a sub forum dedicated to the interaction with a specific people group would actually want to know God and Jesus and engage with them, so that they may enjoy eternal life and the forgiveness of their sin.
      Don't you see that this makes no sense? You assume what other peoples motivations should be, instead of making the slightest civilised effort to explore what they actually are, what they think and why they think it. Atheists don't, nor should they, come here seeking God. If there is someone here that can give good reason as to why God exists then fair enough, but I've yet to see it. Btw, what you think is good reason, atheists don't.

      Originally posted by SteveB View Post
      Those who do not want those things are setting themselves up for a condemnation so great, so terrible, so horrendous that they are in every sense of the word committing suicide.

      Unevidenced assertion.

      Originally posted by SteveB View Post
      You're in a world on this forum where the principle is based on the bible.
      You're in a world that discourse should be based on logic and reason, including the Bible.

      Originally posted by SteveB View Post
      We get that you disagree about it.

      We get that you've decided that you have proven what no one else in nearly 2000 years has ever been able to actually accomplish.
      You're not making any sense, what have atheists supposedly proven? There is no God? If so, you again show you don't understand atheists. No atheist would make this claim, rather, their position is that the evidences for God are not sufficient to warrant belief.

      Originally posted by SteveB View Post
      We further understand that you have convinced yourselves that the principles that apply to the people who have actually met God don't really apply to you.
      What principles?

      Originally posted by SteveB View Post
      We further understand still that under no circumstances whatsoever should you be held accountable for anything you hear about here.
      Huh? This makes no sense. What do you mean?

      Originally posted by SteveB View Post
      And further still,
      We understand that you think there are numerous deities that are being discussed here.

      I and several others who are talking about Jesus are talking explicitly about YHVH, wYHVhas clearly expressed himself as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. One God, in 3 distinct personalities.
      Ok.

      Originally posted by SteveB View Post
      The ideas that we who follow Jesus discuss are specific to the bible.

      We are not going to talk about what others think. They're more than capable of handling those things themselves.

      so telling us that others disagree with us does not help you nor give greater credence to your opinions.
      But if other Christians disagree with you on particular matters, then there are things we can conclude from that, such as, the message isn't clear, which undermines it to a degree.

      Originally posted by SteveB View Post
      If you don't actually want to know God, then while that is indeed your choice, it doesn't help you with an argument.

      The gospel is not a philosophical construct for debating its interpretations.

      the gospel of Jesus is about the creator reaching into the world and engaging with the human race on terms he's defined. It's a living relationship with God and humanity.
      You cannot escape logic and reason. For example, it's possible to examine the way the Bible has been written which can shed light on its veracity. So if it turns out that the Gospel writers were not eye witnesses, this has a bearing on whether the accounts are true or not.

      Originally posted by SteveB View Post
      The gospel of Jesus applies to 100% of the human race, on a global basis.
      Every single human being who has heard it, will ever hear it is culpable for what they've heard.
      Not if it genuinely doesn't make sense to them.

      Originally posted by SteveB View Post
      So, you have to decide whether or not you want to know God.

      It's a simple question and while the answer of yes becomes more detailed, and taking the position of being a student is imperative, the answer of no leaves a very simple issue, which is a very gruesome and unpleasant situation.

      Your attempts to argue the merits of your disagreements do not help you.

      As one poster noted the other day,

      The gospel of Jesus is for the people who recognize that they are spiritually broken and are in need of the only person who has the power to heal them and make them whole.

      The whole reason for the gospel is the human race has been broken due to the sin of Adam.
      this brokenness, the present state of being for the human race results in each and every single human being violating the law of God, aka, the ten commandments.

      Having a false view of God, worshipping beings that are not God, slandering the true God, having a false view of ourselves, and treating ourselves in a manner that endangers our lives and humanity. And having a false view of others with whom we interact, and relate. This false view results in treating them improperly.

      This means that no matter how hard you try to do it right, from this moment forward, what you've already done before has resulted in your being cut off from God and this needs to be resolved before anything else can be successfully achieved.

      So, you choose.

      What matters more to you?

      Being right, or being made whole by God.
      Why do you have to decide? I don't decide the Earth orbits the Sun, the evidence shows it to be so. If you have to decide, the evidence can't show it to be so.


      "My own suspicion is that the universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose." JBS Haldane.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by aussiedave View Post
        The people you refer to as having met god - what proof do they have?
        As far as being right or being made whole by god is concerned, if we are right, then there is no god/s.
        Changed lives.
        that's the statement in the bible.
        Jesus describes it as the new birth (which was why I'd asked you my question about your understanding of the new birth), John 3:3-5.
        Paul describes it in 2 Corinthians 5:17 as being a new creation.
        Ezekiel states it in 3 distinct locations in his book. 11, 18, and 36.

        Isaiah experienced it in chapter 6.

        The Syrian general, Naaman experiences it, in Kings, during the life of Elisha.

        Peter describes it in his letters.

        This is a fundamental issue that separates the religious people who have a form of godliness but deny the power thereof, and those in whose lives the power of God is real.

        And based on approximately 6000 years of human history, as described in the bible, and the past 2000 years since, it's pretty clear that it's possible to be a religious appearing person but completely lack the fruitfulness of a person who knows God. Galatians 5, Romans 8, 2 Peter 1, Jeremiah 17, Psalm 1.

        God is real. He can be known. You only cheat yourself by giving what you call reasons, and are nothing more than excuses. There's an old saying:
        an excuse is nothing more than a skin of reason, over a skeleton of lies.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by SteveB View Post

          Changed lives.
          This is by no means a proof people have met God. Adherents of other religions will say the same.
          "My own suspicion is that the universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose." JBS Haldane.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by SteveB View Post
            I stated the below comment on another post this morning.
            I did so because it's quite clear that numerous people who are opposed to YHVH, and Jesus think this forum is their own private wet dream, and anyone who doesn't agree with their views are lying, wrong, dismissive of their beliefs or just being downright malicious towards them.
            Nobody thinks that. How can you get something so obvious so wrong?


            So....

            My position is that anyone smart enough to hang out on a Christian forum with a sub forum dedicated to the interaction with a specific people group would actually want to know God and Jesus and engage with them, so that they may enjoy eternal life and the forgiveness of their sin.

            Those who do not want those things are setting themselves up for a condemnation so great, so terrible, so horrendous that they are in every sense of the word committing suicide.


            You're in a world on this forum where the principle is based on the bible.
            Does the Bible advocate lying and twisting what people say and projecting your faults onto others. Your witness, here, would indicate that is its message.


            We get that you disagree about it.

            We get that you've decided that you have proven what no one else in nearly 2000 years has ever been able to actually accomplish.
            What?!? What do we claim to have proven? YOU have not demonstrated that what you believe is sensible.


            We get that you believe that you are totally justified in your views.

            We further understand that you have convinced yourselves that the principles that apply to the people who have actually met God don't really apply to you.
            No, you donít understand that. Youll need to prove youíve met god AND we be Iím agreement for this statement to be even applicable as possibly true or not. I donít expect you to understand this fact, but it is a fact. Iíll be happy to go over it with you until you do. If you wish.

            We further understand still that under no circumstances whatsoever should you be held accountable for anything you hear about here.

            And further still,
            We understand that you think there are numerous deities that are being discussed here.
            Only in that there is equivalent evidence for all supposed deities. Itís amazing that none of you ever seem to grasp this extremely simple and obvious point. Perhaps thatís one of the detriments of following your religion: some simple and obvious facts are completely hidden from you.


            I and several others who are talking about Jesus are talking explicitly about YHVH, wYHVhas clearly expressed himself as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. One God, in 3 distinct personalities.

            The ideas that we who follow Jesus discuss are specific to the bible.

            We are not going to talk about what others think. They're more than capable of handling those things themselves.
            You constantly talk about what others think. You even say we have said what we never have said. You claim we think things we have never thought. Why canít you speak truthfully in this matter and other matters? Whatís stopping you from honest discussion. Why do you have to lie?


            so telling us that others disagree with us does not help you nor give greater credence to your opinions.
            Correct. The point goes to the one who can DEMONSTRATE that he is right. You have failed to do that.


            If you don't actually want to know God, then while that is indeed your choice, it doesn't help you with an argument.

            The gospel is not a philosophical construct for debating its interpretations.

            the gospel of Jesus is about the creator reaching into the world and engaging with the human race on terms he's defined. It's a living relationship with God and humanity.

            The gospel of Jesus applies to 100% of the human race, on a global basis.
            Every single human being who has heard it, will ever hear it is culpable for what they've heard.

            So, you have to decide whether or not you want to know God.

            It's a simple question and while the answer of yes becomes more detailed, and taking the position of being a student is imperative, the answer of no leaves a very simple issue, which is a very gruesome and unpleasant situation.
            Diaagreeing with me on such matters does not help you nor give greater credence to your claims above.


            Your attempts to argue the merits of your disagreements do not help you.

            As one poster noted the other day,

            The gospel of Jesus is for the people who recognize that they are spiritually broken and are in need of the only person who has the power to heal them and make them whole.

            The whole reason for the gospel is the human race has been broken due to the sin of Adam.
            this brokenness, the present state of being for the human race results in each and every single human being violating the law of God, aka, the ten commandments.
            The Ten Commandments tell you not to lie. Why do you lie so often, here?


            Having a false view of God, worshipping beings that are not God, slandering the true God, having a false view of ourselves, and treating ourselves in a manner that endangers our lives and humanity. And having a false view of others with whom we interact, and relate. This false view results in treating them improperly.
            Perhaps you need to have a true view of god in order to treat people properly, here.

            Your behavior here shows us that no matter how hard you try to do it right, from this moment forward, what you've already done before has resulted in your being cut off from God and this needs to be resolved before anything else can be successfully achieved.

            So, you choose.

            What matters more to you?

            Being a decent human being who can discuss issues sensibly or showing your views are vile and that following them means that follower will treat people as you do on this forum?

            Heres the thing, Steve, if someone came to me and asked how to become a Christian, I would tell them how. I would explain that I am not a Christian and why, but I would help them and even explain how they needed to pray and believe. I would even lead them in the sinners prayer and help them get in touch with other Christians..:But FIRST I would show them some of your posts and then ask them if they wanted to behave as you do towards others. That would only be fair.

            Comment


            • #7
              '"When one person suffers from a delusion, it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion, it is called religion."
              The burden is NOT on those who reject the bible to prove christianity is false - that's a position of self-righteous arrogance - prove there are no dragons or magical unicorns

              The burden is upon christians to prove the bible is true - and you FAIL because there is not a SINGLE eyewitness account or historical record of the mythical an/god that couldn't have been named jesus
              IF the biblegod were real & all powerful, it should have been able to actually have the gospel written by identified authors rather than anonymously without providing sources of their stories.
              Yes, Luke is identified as the author of his letter to a friend, be he proclaims he was not a witness, just reciting stories he heard without ever naming his sources.

              The gospels do not meet any level of acceptance in a judicial or legal sense (the judge would rule "inadmissible - hearsay") and likewise academically. The bible is just unsubstantiated & unverifiable myths written primarily my anonymous sources who never give their sources.

              God gave mankind Reason not religion
              but...
              "Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the aid of spiritual things, but more frequently than not struggles against the [un]divine word, treating with contempt all that emanates from god." as stated by the father of the reformation and reiterated my many a christian leader since
              Perception is awareness shaped by beliefs
              Beliefs "control" perception

              ..... Rewrite beliefs and you rewrite perceptions
              .......... Rewrite perceptions and you rewrite behaviors


              Adopting a Do Not Feed The Trolls practice.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by aussiedave View Post
                The people you refer to as having met god - what proof do they have?



                Perception is awareness shaped by beliefs
                Beliefs "control" perception

                ..... Rewrite beliefs and you rewrite perceptions
                .......... Rewrite perceptions and you rewrite behaviors


                Adopting a Do Not Feed The Trolls practice.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by SteveB View Post

                  Changed lives.
                  that's the statement in the bible.
                  Jesus describes it as the new birth (which was why I'd asked you my question about your understanding of the new birth), John 3:3-5.
                  Paul describes it in 2 Corinthians 5:17 as being a new creation.
                  Ezekiel states it in 3 distinct locations in his book. 11, 18, and 36.

                  Isaiah experienced it in chapter 6.

                  The Syrian general, Naaman experiences it, in Kings, during the life of Elisha.

                  Peter describes it in his letters.

                  This is a fundamental issue that separates the religious people who have a form of godliness but deny the power thereof, and those in whose lives the power of God is real.
                  Power schmower.
                  Other religions claim changed lives too.

                  And based on approximately 6000 years of human history, as described in the bible, and the past 2000 years since, it's pretty clear that it's possible to be a religious appearing person but completely lack the fruitfulness of a person who knows God. Galatians 5, Romans 8, 2 Peter 1, Jeremiah 17, Psalm 1.
                  True.
                  Just look at all the high profile, religious appearing christians throughout history who were exposed as frauds that led secret, sinful lives.

                  With all the conflicting religious beliefs in the world, they can’t all be right. But they can all be wrong.
                  Herb Silverman.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by SteveB View Post
                    I stated the below comment on another post this morning.
                    I did so because it's quite clear that numerous people who are opposed to YHVH, and Jesus think this forum is their own private wet dream, and anyone who doesn't agree with their views are lying, wrong, dismissive of their beliefs or just being downright malicious towards them.

                    So....

                    My position is that anyone smart enough to hang out on a Christian forum with a sub forum dedicated to the interaction with a specific people group would actually want to know God and Jesus and engage with them, so that they may enjoy eternal life and the forgiveness of their sin.

                    Those who do not want those things are setting themselves up for a condemnation so great, so terrible, so horrendous that they are in every sense of the word committing suicide.


                    You're in a world on this forum where the principle is based on the bible.

                    We get that you disagree about it.

                    We get that you've decided that you have proven what no one else in nearly 2000 years has ever been able to actually accomplish.

                    We get that you believe that you are totally justified in your views.

                    We further understand that you have convinced yourselves that the principles that apply to the people who have actually met God don't really apply to you.

                    We further understand still that under no circumstances whatsoever should you be held accountable for anything you hear about here.

                    And further still,
                    We understand that you think there are numerous deities that are being discussed here.

                    I and several others who are talking about Jesus are talking explicitly about YHVH, wYHVhas clearly expressed himself as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. One God, in 3 distinct personalities.


                    The ideas that we who follow Jesus discuss are specific to the bible.

                    We are not going to talk about what others think. They're more than capable of handling those things themselves.

                    so telling us that others disagree with us does not help you nor give greater credence to your opinions.

                    If you don't actually want to know God, then while that is indeed your choice, it doesn't help you with an argument.

                    The gospel is not a philosophical construct for debating its interpretations.

                    the gospel of Jesus is about the creator reaching into the world and engaging with the human race on terms he's defined. It's a living relationship with God and humanity.

                    The gospel of Jesus applies to 100% of the human race, on a global basis.
                    Every single human being who has heard it, will ever hear it is culpable for what they've heard.

                    So, you have to decide whether or not you want to know God.

                    It's a simple question and while the answer of yes becomes more detailed, and taking the position of being a student is imperative, the answer of no leaves a very simple issue, which is a very gruesome and unpleasant situation.

                    Your attempts to argue the merits of your disagreements do not help you.

                    As one poster noted the other day,

                    The gospel of Jesus is for the people who recognize that they are spiritually broken and are in need of the only person who has the power to heal them and make them whole.

                    The whole reason for the gospel is the human race has been broken due to the sin of Adam.
                    this brokenness, the present state of being for the human race results in each and every single human being violating the law of God, aka, the ten commandments.

                    Having a false view of God, worshipping beings that are not God, slandering the true God, having a false view of ourselves, and treating ourselves in a manner that endangers our lives and humanity. And having a false view of others with whom we interact, and relate. This false view results in treating them improperly.

                    This means that no matter how hard you try to do it right, from this moment forward, what you've already done before has resulted in your being cut off from God and this needs to be resolved before anything else can be successfully achieved.

                    So, you choose.

                    What matters more to you?

                    Being right, or being made whole by God.
                    I do know God, Steve

                    And I don't like Him

                    He's not a very likable dude...

                    I don't think you like Him very much either, but you're far too afraid of Him to ever admit it

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by SteveB View Post
                      I stated the below comment on another post this morning.
                      I did so because it's quite clear that numerous people who are opposed to YHVH, and Jesus think this forum is their own private wet dream, and anyone who doesn't agree with their views are lying, wrong, dismissive of their beliefs or just being downright malicious towards them.
                      If you imagine that this forum could be anyone's idea of a wet dream I feel sorry for you.
                      Originally posted by SteveB View Post
                      You're in a world on this forum where the principle is based on the bible.

                      We get that you disagree about it.

                      We get that you've decided that you have proven what no one else in nearly 2000 years has ever been able to actually accomplish.
                      No I haven't decided that at all. I've just yet to see that any Christian or theist has shown that their claims are true
                      Originally posted by SteveB View Post
                      We get that you believe that you are totally justified in your views.
                      Everyone does.
                      Originally posted by SteveB View Post
                      We further understand that you have convinced yourselves that the principles that apply to the people who have actually met God don't really apply to you.
                      No it is the opposite. I have yet to be convince that people who claim to have met God are applying the same principles as I do.
                      Originally posted by SteveB View Post
                      We further understand still that under no circumstances whatsoever should you be held accountable for anything you hear about here.
                      This makes no sense.
                      Originally posted by SteveB View Post
                      And further still,
                      We understand that you think there are numerous deities that are being discussed here.

                      I and several others who are talking about Jesus are talking explicitly about YHVH, wYHVhas clearly expressed himself as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. One God, in 3 distinct personalities.
                      No I donít believe that. I believe the trinity has been imposed upon scripture where it doesnít exist.

                      Originally posted by SteveB View Post
                      If you don't actually want to know God, then while that is indeed your choice, it doesn't help you with an argument.
                      If there is a God then I want to know it.
                      Originally posted by SteveB View Post
                      The gospel is not a philosophical construct for debating its interpretations.
                      Of course it is.
                      Originally posted by SteveB View Post
                      The gospel of Jesus is about the creator reaching into the world and engaging with the human race on terms he's defined. It's a living relationship with God and humanity.
                      We await validation of this claim.
                      Originally posted by SteveB View Post
                      The gospel of Jesus applies to 100% of the human race, on a global basis.
                      Every single human being who has heard it, will ever hear it is culpable for what they've heard.

                      So, you have to decide whether or not you want to know God.
                      Again, if there is a God then I want to know it.
                      Originally posted by SteveB View Post
                      It's a simple question and while the answer of yes becomes more detailed, and taking the position of being a student is imperative, the answer of no leaves a very simple issue, which is a very gruesome and unpleasant situation.

                      Your attempts to argue the merits of your disagreements do not help you.
                      No because theists have nothing new to present in support of their claims
                      Originally posted by SteveB View Post
                      As one poster noted the other day,

                      The gospel of Jesus is for the people who recognize that they are spiritually broken and are in need of the only person who has the power to heal them and make them whole.

                      The whole reason for the gospel is the human race has been broken due to the sin of Adam.
                      this brokenness, the present state of being for the human race results in each and every single human being violating the law of God, aka, the ten commandments.

                      Having a false view of God, worshipping beings that are not God, slandering the true God, having a false view of ourselves, and treating ourselves in a manner that endangers our lives and humanity. And having a false view of others with whom we interact, and relate. This false view results in treating them improperly.
                      Show me something to support this claim. Show me that there is a Law of God and that the allegory of Adam is a meaningful explanation of the human predicament?
                      Originally posted by SteveB View Post
                      This means that no matter how hard you try to do it right, from this moment forward, what you've already done before has resulted in your being cut off from God and this needs to be resolved before anything else can be successfully achieved.

                      So, you choose.

                      What matters more to you?

                      Being right, or being made whole by God.
                      Show me that there is a God I need to be made right with?
                      I know you absolutely believe what you say about God but the rest of us donít.
                      We arenít wilfully opposing god because we Ďjust wanna siní or anything like that.
                      We just donít see any validity to the Christian claims.
                      Last edited by tiburon; 08-14-19, 05:37 AM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by SteveB View Post
                        I stated the below comment on another post this morning.
                        I did so because it's quite clear that numerous people who are opposed to YHVH, and Jesus think this forum is their own private wet dream, and anyone who doesn't agree with their views are lying, wrong, dismissive of their beliefs or just being downright malicious towards them.

                        So....

                        My position is that anyone smart enough to hang out on a Christian forum with a sub forum dedicated to the interaction with a specific people group would actually want to know God and Jesus and engage with them, so that they may enjoy eternal life and the forgiveness of their sin.

                        Those who do not want those things are setting themselves up for a condemnation so great, so terrible, so horrendous that they are in every sense of the word committing suicide.

                        You're in a world on this forum where the principle is based on the bible.

                        We get that you disagree about it.

                        We get that you've decided that you have proven what no one else in nearly 2000 years has ever been able to actually accomplish.

                        We get that you believe that you are totally justified in your views.

                        We further understand that you have convinced yourselves that the principles that apply to the people who have actually met God don't really apply to you.

                        We further understand still that under no circumstances whatsoever should you be held accountable for anything you hear about here.

                        And further still,
                        We understand that you think there are numerous deities that are being discussed here.

                        I and several others who are talking about Jesus are talking explicitly about YHVH, wYHVhas clearly expressed himself as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. One God, in 3 distinct personalities.


                        The ideas that we who follow Jesus discuss are specific to the bible.

                        We are not going to talk about what others think. They're more than capable of handling those things themselves.

                        so telling us that others disagree with us does not help you nor give greater credence to your opinions.

                        If you don't actually want to know God, then while that is indeed your choice, it doesn't help you with an argument.

                        The gospel is not a philosophical construct for debating its interpretations.

                        the gospel of Jesus is about the creator reaching into the world and engaging with the human race on terms he's defined. It's a living relationship with God and humanity.

                        The gospel of Jesus applies to 100% of the human race, on a global basis.
                        Every single human being who has heard it, will ever hear it is culpable for what they've heard.

                        So, you have to decide whether or not you want to know God.

                        It's a simple question and while the answer of yes becomes more detailed, and taking the position of being a student is imperative, the answer of no leaves a very simple issue, which is a very gruesome and unpleasant situation.

                        Your attempts to argue the merits of your disagreements do not help you.

                        As one poster noted the other day,

                        The gospel of Jesus is for the people who recognize that they are spiritually broken and are in need of the only person who has the power to heal them and make them whole.

                        The whole reason for the gospel is the human race has been broken due to the sin of Adam.
                        this brokenness, the present state of being for the human race results in each and every single human being violating the law of God, aka, the ten commandments.

                        Having a false view of God, worshipping beings that are not God, slandering the true God, having a false view of ourselves, and treating ourselves in a manner that endangers our lives and humanity. And having a false view of others with whom we interact, and relate. This false view results in treating them improperly.

                        This means that no matter how hard you try to do it right, from this moment forward, what you've already done before has resulted in your being cut off from God and this needs to be resolved before anything else can be successfully achieved.

                        So, you choose.

                        What matters more to you?

                        Being right, or being made whole by God.
                        My position....

                        You believe garbage that harms the human psyche with its message - taken from ancient superstitious bronze age illiterates with very challenged epistemological capacities - that we are not worthy of the very lives we find ourselves in.

                        For the sake of healthier societies, this message is worth fighting against around every dark corner we find it.

                        Steve, you may have convinced yourself of your lack of intrinsic self worth, but stop poisoning others with your personal darkness and dragging them down in that hole with you.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Some hardy perennials here, as well as some that are uniquely SteveB.

                          Originally posted by SteveB View Post
                          My position is that anyone smart enough to hang out on a Christian forum with a sub forum dedicated to the interaction with a specific people group would actually want to know God and Jesus and engage with them, so that they may enjoy eternal life and the forgiveness of their sin.
                          Steve is pretending to believe that atheists actually think there is a path to eternal life through God and Jesus. (Give that a moment or two to sink in.) Because that's the only way one could possibly expect that atheists "would actually want to know God and Jesus... so that they may enjoy eternal life." I say he's "pretending" to believe that, because it's too obviously nonsensical for anybody actually to believe it. If you take atheists at face value, we don't believe God exists, so we can't be looking for eternal life through him. If on the other hand you think atheists do believe in God, but hypnotize ourselves into denying it (or however you interpret the "suppress it in unrighteousness" passage), then you wouldn't expect us to want to know God either, because that's precisely what we're supposedly determined not to know!

                          Steve is also ignoring all the other possible reasons atheists might have for participating in the "Atheism-Agnosticism" section of a Christian forum, including: desire to hear the case for Christianity, not out of a deep-down suspicion that it's true, but on the principle that one should expose oneself to contrary beliefs; desire to learn more about Christian apologetics, either out of academic curiosity or out of a desire to be prepared for arguments or confrontations in real life; desire to correct misconceptions about themselves; liking for a good argument; etc. But he's apparently incapable even of acknowledging the bare possibility that any of these might apply.


                          Originally posted by SteveB View Post
                          We get that you've decided that you have proven what no one else in nearly 2000 years has ever been able to actually accomplish.
                          As others have said, no; it's pretty rare for an atheist to declare that he has proven Christianity false. What I'd like to note here, though, is the claim that "no one else has been able to accomplish" such disproof. What exactly does this mean? If "disproof" means "prove, to one's own satisfaction, that Christianity is false," then of course lots and lots of people have "disproved" Christianity. And if it means "make the case, to the satisfaction of some others, that Christianity is false," then there are people who have done that too. (Paine, Ingersoll, Dawkins, etc.) But if it means "annihilate Christianity, by making a case against it so strong that nobody is ever willing to be a Christian afterwards," then obviously no one "has ever been able to accomplish this," and obviously none of the atheists here (or anywhere) would ever for a moment "decide" that they were the ones to accomplish this impossible feat. And of course -- by that standard -- it's equally true that no one has ever been able to disprove Islam, or Buddhism, or Hinduism, or any other belief still held by masses of people.

                          So what Steve has done here is to issue a gratuitous accusation about the moral and/or intellectual failings of all his readers, based on absolutely nothing which he is willing to share; an accusation which is basically incoherent, which does not even make sense in its own terms. I think we're all getting a feeling of deja vu here.


                          (Skipping some stuff which has been addressed perfectly well already.)


                          Originally posted by SteveB View Post
                          We understand that you think there are numerous deities that are being discussed here.
                          In my experience, the only time other deities (Allah, Krisnah, etc.) are brought up by atheists is as a way of making a point about how weak the apologist's argument is: e.g., "if you think the persistence of a religion over millennia is a sign of its truth, then you should acknowledge the truth of Islam, Hinduism, etc." And people often pretend not to understand how this kind of reasoning works, but I have no doubt they actually know perfectly well how it works.

                          Originally posted by SteveB View Post
                          The gospel is not a philosophical construct for debating its interpretations.
                          The pattern is invariable:

                          1. Steve makes an argument for why he is right about something and atheists are wrong.
                          2. An atheist responds with a counter-argument.
                          3a. If Steve feels he has an answer to that, he gives it. But,
                          3b. If Steve has no answer to that, he makes his pigeon chess move and indignantly declares that "Jesus is not an argument!"

                          Everything else in the OP is just a variation on "you need to drop all your questioning of the Gospels right now, because the Gospels say that anyone who questions them is going to hell." And of course if anybody points to the obvious fallacy in this, Steve will be ready to tell us "Jesus is not an academic exercise!" or something equally convincing.

                          By the way, "Jesus is not an argument" is an attempt, using words, to persuade the reader to reach a certain conclusion or to take a certain course of action. The term for that kind of speech act is "an argument."
                          I promise that if you treat me as a reasonable person -- someone who is open to good arguments and clear explanations -- I will treat you as one in return.

                          If, on the other hand, you don't consider me a reasonable person, why would you want to talk to me, and why would I want to listen to you?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by WiF View Post
                            Originally posted by SteveB View Post

                            I stated the below comment on another post this morning.

                            I did so because it's quite clear that numerous people who are opposed to YHVH, and Jesus think this forum is their own private wet dream, and anyone who doesn't agree with their views are lying, wrong, dismissive of their beliefs or just being downright malicious towards them.
                            You are quick to insult for mere disagreement.
                            If youíre convinced youíve been insulted, you have one of two recourses.

                            File a complaint.Grow up and get over yourself.

                            Iím just stating whatís become increasingly obvious from the perspective Iíve observed over the past nearly 7 years now. Iíd think if you donít like seeing the truth from someone elseís perspective, youíd change how you address their posts, so you could be perceived in a less antagonistic manner. But thatís just a common sense point of view.



                            Originally posted by WiF View Post
                            Originally posted by SteveB View Post

                            So....

                            My position is that anyone smart enough to hang out on a Christian forum with a sub forum dedicated to the interaction with a specific people group would actually want to know God and Jesus and engage with them, so that they may enjoy eternal life and the forgiveness of their sin
                            .

                            Don't you see that this makes no sense? You assume what other peoples motivations should be, instead of making the slightest civilised effort to explore what they actually are, what they think and why they think it. Atheists don't, nor should they, come here seeking God. If there is someone here that can give good reason as to why God exists then fair enough, but I've yet to see it. Btw, what you think is good reason, atheists don't.
                            My ďassumptionĒ of the motivations of others is based on a belief that theyíre intelligent human beings who know how to think, reason, and work through issues that are claiming ownership of their lives, and a future of incredible magnitude. Indeed, that belief is based on the biblical narrative. Which is yet one more reason why Iíve spent so much time asking you to read for the purpose of understanding and learning.



                            Originally posted by WiF View Post
                            Originally posted by SteveB View Post

                            Those who do not want those things are setting themselves up for a condemnation so great, so terrible, so horrendous that they are in every sense of the word committing suicide.
                            Unevidenced assertion.
                            Actually, itís pretty well-stated, and oft-stated in the bible. But this is yet another reason why Iíve spent so much time asking you to read for the purpose of understanding and learning.



                            Originally posted by WiF View Post
                            Originally posted by SteveB View Post

                            You're in a world on this forum where the principle is based on the bible.
                            You're in a world that discourse should be based on logic and reason, including the Bible.
                            You should take the time to read the websiteís About Us page. I copied it on another thread the other day. Zaphod got pretty upset about it, so Iíd think you wouldnít have much trouble finding it. But if thatís too difficult, hereís a link.

                            http://carm.org/general-information-about-carm





                            Originally posted by WiF View Post
                            Originally posted by SteveB View Post

                            We get that you disagree about it.
                            We get that you've decided that you have proven what no one else in nearly 2000 years has ever been able to actually accomplish.
                            You're not making any sense, what have atheists supposedly proven? There is no God? If so, you again show you don't understand atheists. No atheist would make this claim, rather, their position is that the evidences for God are not sufficient to warrant belief. [/QUOTE]

                            And yet you chose what you claim is a default position, when God has said that heís given plenty of information that you can know, you deliberately choose to remain ignorant. This tells me that the atheist believes theyíve collectively proven there is no God. For someone who is so set on my not knowing the atheist beliefs and reasons, youíre sure missing some incredibly basic thoughts.

                            Originally posted by WiF View Post
                            Originally posted by SteveB View Post

                            We further understand that you have convinced yourselves that the principles that apply to the people who have actually met God don't really apply to you.
                            What principles?
                            UhmÖ. The bible. The principles which state that each and every single human being is to be held to account for their lives, words, actions, inactions, and thoughts. The principles which state that there are a set of actions one can choose to engage which will demonstrate the veracity, or deception of said ideas.

                            Originally posted by WiF View Post
                            Originally posted by SteveB View Post

                            We further understand still that under no circumstances whatsoever should you be held accountable for anything you hear about here.
                            Huh? This makes no sense. What do you mean?
                            See above. Itís clearly stated throughout the bible. Each and every single human being is to be held to account for their lives, words, actions, inactions, and thoughts.

                            Originally posted by WiF View Post
                            Originally posted by SteveB View Post

                            The ideas that we who follow Jesus discuss are specific to the bible.

                            We are not going to talk about what others think. They're more than capable of handling those things themselves.

                            so telling us that others disagree with us does not help you nor give greater credence to your opinions.
                            But if other Christians disagree with you on particular matters, then there are things we can conclude from that, such as, the message isn't clear, which undermines it to a degree.
                            It doesnít require agreement. The bible simply states as is, and itís incumbent on each person to take the time, prayer, and responsibility to learn.





                            Originally posted by WiF View Post
                            Originally posted by SteveB View Post

                            If you don't actually want to know God, then while that is indeed your choice, it doesn't help you with an argument.

                            The gospel is not a philosophical construct for debating its interpretations.

                            the gospel of Jesus is about the creator reaching into the world and engaging with the human race on terms he's defined. It's a living relationship with God and humanity.
                            You cannot escape logic and reason. For example, it's possible to examine the way the Bible has been written which can shed light on its veracity. So if it turns out that the Gospel writers were not eye witnesses, this has a bearing on whether the accounts are true or not.
                            I'm not the one trying to escape logic or reason.
                            We're being invited by God to learn his logic and his reasoning. We're being invited to see life from an eternal perspective.
                            Jesus said that the things that are important to the human race are an abomination to God.
                            Elsewhere we read that God's thoughts and his ways are above ours as far as the heavens are above the earth.
                            elsewhere still we are told that we are to put our focus on things that are eternal and not on temporal levels.

                            Here's a novel idea for you.
                            It's said that life is short and we should give it our all, so we can get the very best possible for ourselves.
                            Eternity is longer, and never ends, don't you think that for a life that will last forever it'd behoove you to focus on learning how to get the very best for yourself in eternity, instead of just focusing on this life alone?

                            This life is 110 years at best, but eternity is untold eons of years, and never ends.

                            We're being invited to spend it in paradise or in a place not designed for us.
                            Wouldn't it be more reasonable and logical to choose life instead of just accepting death?

                            that's why I've taken the time to read, learn, apply, understand and grow in the knowledge of God.
                            everything else is added bonus and benefits.

                            Originally posted by WiF View Post
                            Originally posted by SteveB View Post

                            The gospel of Jesus applies to 100% of the human race, on a global basis.

                            Every single human being who has heard it, will ever hear it is culpable for what they've heard.
                            Not if it genuinely doesn't make sense to them.
                            Actually, it applies to all regardless of whether or not it makes sense.
                            You're more than welcome to disagree about it but it only requires making sense if you want to benefit from the promise of God in Jesus.
                            The fact that it is for the entire world is why we are able to actually gain the benefit from him.

                            Originally posted by WiF View Post
                            Originally posted by SteveB View Post

                            So, you have to decide whether or not you want to know God.

                            It's a simple question and while the answer of yes becomes more detailed, and taking the position of being a student is imperative, the answer of no leaves a very simple issue, which is a very gruesome and unpleasant situation.

                            Your attempts to argue the merits of your disagreements do not help you.

                            As one poster noted the other day,

                            The gospel of Jesus is for the people who recognize that they are spiritually broken and are in need of the only person who has the power to heal them and make them whole.

                            The whole reason for the gospel is the human race has been broken due to the sin of Adam.

                            this brokenness, the present state of being for the human race results in each and every single human being violating the law of God, aka, the ten commandments.

                            Having a false view of God, worshipping beings that are not God, slandering the true God, having a false view of ourselves, and treating ourselves in a manner that endangers our lives and humanity. And having a false view of others with whom we interact, and relate. This false view results in treating them improperly.

                            This means that no matter how hard you try to do it right, from this moment forward, what you've already done before has resulted in your being cut off from God and this needs to be resolved before anything else can be successfully achieved.

                            So, you choose.

                            What matters more to you?

                            Being right, or being made whole by God.
                            Why do you have to decide? I don't decide the Earth orbits the Sun, the evidence shows it to be so. If you have to decide, the evidence can't show it to be so.
                            Years ago I heard a rather unique question.

                            If Jesus is for everyone why doesn't everyone believe in him?

                            The responder said, there's so many dirty people in the world and plenty of soap to clean them all. Why are there still so many dirty people out?

                            The questioner responded, they all have to use the soap to clean themselves.

                            The responder said, each person has to apply Jesus to their sin to be forgiven.

                            So, you have to choose. Otherwise your sin will remain in your life.

                            Jesus wants to receive your sin, and cleanse you, in order for you to have eternal life. But your life is yours, and if you want to keep your sin, he won't force you to release it to him.
                            God is real. He can be known. You only cheat yourself by giving what you call reasons, and are nothing more than excuses. There's an old saying:
                            an excuse is nothing more than a skin of reason, over a skeleton of lies.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Whatsisface View Post

                              This is by no means a proof people have met God. Adherents of other religions will say the same.
                              You're saying that based solely on your ignorance and your lack of knowledge and experience with Jesus.

                              It's further stated in the following locations that God gives us his Holy Spirit as a deposit, down payment, guarantee, and pledge, as well as the cause/help of the changed life.

                              Ephesians 1:13-14, 2 Corinthians 1:21-23, 5:5, John 14, 16, and Ezekiel 36:25-27.

                              You're more than welcome to read them for yourself.
                              It'd go a long way to help you learn and understand.

                              So far your refusal to follow through with reading so you can understand is causing you more embarrassment than helping your argument.
                              God is real. He can be known. You only cheat yourself by giving what you call reasons, and are nothing more than excuses. There's an old saying:
                              an excuse is nothing more than a skin of reason, over a skeleton of lies.

                              Comment

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