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The "Ask and Listen" Method of Persuasion

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  • The "Ask and Listen" Method of Persuasion

    I've tried Betsy Speicher's "Ask and Listen" method a few times, and it seems to work more often than other methods of persuasion.

    The premise of the method is that the person you're talking to has some set of concerns leading them to hold their position, and these concerns have to be addressed to get them to change their mind. Accordingly, the method has two steps: (1) Ask a lot of questions and listen carefully to the answers until you fully understand the concerns leading the other person to hold their position. (2) At that point, present a response that directly addresses all of the person's concerns.

    This doesn't work if the other person doesn't hold their position honestly. You can tell that someone doesn't hold their position honestly in part by whether they evade when you make a point they can't answer. (The method also doesn't work if the person has concerns you can't address, obviously.)

    I don't think this method will work particularly well on most CARM posters, but I thought I would share it anyway.

    Thoughts?
    "There is no singular thing in nature that is more useful to man than a man who lives according to the guidance of reason."
    ~ Spinoza, Ethics, 4p35c1

  • #2
    Why are you an atheist?

    Whether theist or not, what, specifically, is it you believe (relevant to the question of God's existence)?

    Do you understand that a person believing in the existence of God (theism) is not the same as believing (or practicing) religion?
    Do you, or can you, understand an anti-religious position is not the same as an anti-theist position?
    Do you, or can you, understand an anti-theist position is a religious position in antithesis?






    What is the basis for believing "the standard of proof for a religion should be very high"?
    Do you hold others to a lesser standard? What is the basis for maintaining two standards? What might that lesser standard be?

    From where does the "entitlement" to hold religious people to a very high standard originate?






    Why do you subscribe to Rand's "money speech"?
    Are you aware she misquoted the Bible when referencing the premise "
    So you think that money is the root of all evil? "?

    To what degree does this mean you've based your views on a straw man?

    Are you aware Rand's theistic dissent entailed resisting any God or religion that required obedience to authority rather than the pursuit of one's own interests?
    Are you aware Rad didn't live her life in a manner wholly consistent with that position?






    Is the above too many questions? If so then post separate responses based on the groupings of the questions and I'll try to maintain the different threads with you.
    All verses cited or quoted or in the NAS unless otherwise noted.

    “if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not win the prize unless he competes according to the rules.” (2 Tim. 2:5)

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Occam View Post
      I've tried Betsy Speicher's "Ask and Listen" method a few times, and it seems to work more often than other methods of persuasion.

      The premise of the method is that the person you're talking to has some set of concerns leading them to hold their position, and these concerns have to be addressed to get them to change their mind. Accordingly, the method has two steps: (1) Ask a lot of questions and listen carefully to the answers until you fully understand the concerns leading the other person to hold their position. (2) At that point, present a response that directly addresses all of the person's concerns.

      This doesn't work if the other person doesn't hold their position honestly. You can tell that someone doesn't hold their position honestly in part by whether they evade when you make a point they can't answer. (The method also doesn't work if the person has concerns you can't address, obviously.)

      I don't think this method will work particularly well on most CARM posters, but I thought I would share it anyway.

      Thoughts?
      This seems like listening 101. I am not sure what the author means by "concerns". I don't think I hold my position about the existence of God because of "concerns". Could you expand on that point please? Thank you.
      "Now, what is the Sacrament of the Altar!
      Answer: It is the true body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, in and under the bread and wine which we Christians are commanded by the Word of Christ to eat and to drink."

      Martin Luther "The Large Cathechism"

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Occam View Post
        I've tried Betsy Speicher's "Ask and Listen" method a few times, and it seems to work more often than other methods of persuasion.

        The premise of the method is that the person you're talking to has some set of concerns leading them to hold their position, and these concerns have to be addressed to get them to change their mind. Accordingly, the method has two steps: (1) Ask a lot of questions and listen carefully to the answers until you fully understand the concerns leading the other person to hold their position. (2) At that point, present a response that directly addresses all of the person's concerns.

        This doesn't work if the other person doesn't hold their position honestly. You can tell that someone doesn't hold their position honestly in part by whether they evade when you make a point they can't answer. (The method also doesn't work if the person has concerns you can't address, obviously.)

        I don't think this method will work particularly well on most CARM posters, but I thought I would share it anyway.

        Thoughts?
        Ironic.
        I used to ask lots and lots of questions.
        It never worked for me here.
        I did however learn that the people who didn't want to answer my questions sure had no problem whatsoever with ignoring them, and asking me questions by the dozens instead and then complain when those questions of theirs got ignored.

        I have to agree with you.
        It doesn't seem to work here.

        Sad.
        I thought we both could have learned a lot about each other had they cared enough about their beliefs to have answered my questions.

        Good op!
        God is real. He can be known. You only cheat yourself by giving what you call reasons, and are nothing more than excuses. There's an old saying:
        an excuse is nothing more than a skin of reason, over a skeleton of lies.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by SteveB View Post

          Ironic.
          I used to ask lots and lots of questions.
          It never worked for me here.
          I did however learn that the people who didn't want to answer my questions sure had no problem whatsoever with ignoring them, and asking me questions by the dozens instead and then complain when those questions of theirs got ignored.
          I remember trying to get you to ask me a question, any question, in an attempt to get a reasonable exchange out of you. It was like pulling teeth as you took ages getting round to asking me said question and it didn't work as far as getting a reasonable conversation out of you was concerned.

          If you were to present a post with say three questions for atheists, I can guarantee you will get answers. I can also guarantee you will make an excuse not to, which will give the lie to your claims here.
          "My own suspicion is that the universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose." JBS Haldane.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Whatsisface View Post

            I remember trying to get you to ask me a question, any question, in an attempt to get a reasonable exchange out of you. It was like pulling teeth as you took ages getting round to asking me said question and it didn't work as far as getting a reasonable conversation out of you was concerned.

            If you were to present a post with say three questions for atheists, I can guarantee you will get answers. I can also guarantee you will make an excuse not to, which will give the lie to your claims here.
            You demonstrated over the course of several years that you didn't want to actually answer any questions, told me that you could be so bothered reading such tedious posts, because they were too lengthy. I then provided you with the search results just 2 weeks ago, of my posts dating back to 2015, and asking you to take the time to read through them and answer the questions contained in those old posts and you went off on a tirade .

            I really have no interest in talking to you any more.

            I warned you that this would happen if you refused to engage. I all but begged you, and kept asking you repeatedly to just answer the questions that I've already asked, from the past. This went on for years. I explained to you that I don't just pull questions out of the air. I explained to you that the questions I ask deal explicitly with the discussions taking place at the time and for all intents and purposes time-stamped to those conversations.

            This is actually why I gave you the search results. Because they're focused on those discussions.





            I further stated that if you actually want to be taken seriously, you can go back and answer all those questions I asked you back then.

            I explained that it would go a long way to demonstrate to me you're legit. I even said that for every two questions you answered from the past, I'd start answering yours from today forward.
            you ranted, and complained about how inconvenient it would be to you.
            So.... you have received exactly what you wanted.




            So stop.
            You're only humiliating yourself here, and I'm weary.
            God is real. He can be known. You only cheat yourself by giving what you call reasons, and are nothing more than excuses. There's an old saying:
            an excuse is nothing more than a skin of reason, over a skeleton of lies.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by SteveB View Post

              You demonstrated over the course of several years that you didn't want to actually answer any questions, told me that you could be so bothered reading such tedious posts, because they were too lengthy. I then provided you with the search results of my posts dating back to 2015, and asking you to take the time to read through them and answer the questions contained in those old posts and you went off on a tirade .

              I really have no interest in talking to you any more.

              I warned you that this would happen if you refused to engage.

              So stop.
              You're only humiliating yourself here.
              And as i predicted, demonstrating your lack of goodwill in discussion, you won't even contemplate starting a thread and asking atheists questions. You complain that atheists in general won't answer your questions and use me as an excuse not to ask any.

              You complain about your treatment here at the hands of atheists, but you were insulting atheists right from the start of you being here just for disagreeing with you.

              You've never really had any interest in engaging properly with me and others because you don't answer points and questions put to you. You sidestep them only to pointlessly preach.

              How many atheists have you reached here? Who takes you seriously?






              "My own suspicion is that the universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose." JBS Haldane.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Whatsisface View Post

                And as i predicted, demonstrating your lack of goodwill in discussion, you won't even contemplate starting a thread and asking atheists questions. You complain that atheists in general won't answer your questions and use me as an excuse not to ask any.

                You complain about your treatment here at the hands of atheists, but you were insulting atheists right from the start of you being here just for disagreeing with you.

                You've never really had any interest in engaging properly with me and others because you don't answer points and questions put to you. You sidestep them only to pointlessly preach.

                How many atheists have you reached here? Who takes you seriously?





                You already know how to use the search engine for this forum.
                I used the advanced search.

                Be my guest.

                Let me know when you actually do it.

                No more excuses because you're continuing to dig deeper and deeper holes for yourself.

                God is real. He can be known. You only cheat yourself by giving what you call reasons, and are nothing more than excuses. There's an old saying:
                an excuse is nothing more than a skin of reason, over a skeleton of lies.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by SteveB View Post

                  You already know how to use the search engine for this forum.
                  I used the advanced search.

                  Be my guest.

                  Let me know when you actually do it.

                  No more excuses because you're continuing to dig deeper and deeper holes for yourself.
                  This is the question you always dodge. What did. Jesus say to do exactly and how did doing it show that God exists?
                  "My own suspicion is that the universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose." JBS Haldane.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Whatsisface View Post
                    This is the question you always dodge. What did. Jesus say to do exactly and how did doing it show that God exists?
                    When you stop talking and start answering questions, I'll answer yours.

                    Until then, you're only embarrassing yourself.
                    God is real. He can be known. You only cheat yourself by giving what you call reasons, and are nothing more than excuses. There's an old saying:
                    an excuse is nothing more than a skin of reason, over a skeleton of lies.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by SteveB View Post

                      When you stop talking and start answering questions, I'll answer yours.

                      Until then, you're only embarrassing yourself.
                      How can I stop talking and answer questions? I can't do both. Try to make sense.

                      Post that OP with questions and you'll get answers. You won't though because you have no intention of answering questions that I and others have been putting to you. You have never attempted to answer them. I can only think it's because you know what you say won't stand to scrutiny.

                      You're doing the same thing now with HA, not answering her questions instead of being honestly open.
                      "My own suspicion is that the universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose." JBS Haldane.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Whatsisface View Post

                        How can I stop talking and answer questions? I can't do both. Try to make sense.

                        Post that OP with questions and you'll get answers. You won't though because you have no intention of answering questions that I and others have been putting to you. You have never attempted to answer them. I can only think it's because you know what you say won't stand to scrutiny.

                        You're doing the same thing now with HA, not answering her questions instead of being honestly open.
                        You're a smart boy.
                        you'll figure it out.
                        God is real. He can be known. You only cheat yourself by giving what you call reasons, and are nothing more than excuses. There's an old saying:
                        an excuse is nothing more than a skin of reason, over a skeleton of lies.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by SteveB View Post

                          You're a smart boy.
                          you'll figure it out.
                          Oh so you've left it to me to be the one to make sense. Mind you, I do understand, we don't want to wear you out, right?
                          "My own suspicion is that the universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose." JBS Haldane.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Occam View Post
                            I've tried Betsy Speicher's "Ask and Listen" method a few times, and it seems to work more often than other methods of persuasion.

                            The premise of the method is that the person you're talking to has some set of concerns leading them to hold their position, and these concerns have to be addressed to get them to change their mind. Accordingly, the method has two steps: (1) Ask a lot of questions and listen carefully to the answers until you fully understand the concerns leading the other person to hold their position. (2) At that point, present a response that directly addresses all of the person's concerns.

                            This doesn't work if the other person doesn't hold their position honestly. You can tell that someone doesn't hold their position honestly in part by whether they evade when you make a point they can't answer. (The method also doesn't work if the person has concerns you can't address, obviously.)

                            I don't think this method will work particularly well on most CARM posters, but I thought I would share it anyway.

                            Thoughts?
                            Maybe worth emphasizing that the premise here is that you are attempting to get somebody to change his/her mind about something. In my particular case, I might be attempting to get people to change their minds about a particular argument -- for God's existence, for the resurrection of Jesus, etc. -- being a good argument, but in doing so I'm not attempting to get them to become atheists. People sometimes don't see the distinction, and maybe when I get in such arguments I ought to be more careful about disavowing that "evangelical" intention.
                            I promise that if you treat me as a reasonable person -- someone who is open to good arguments and clear explanations -- I will treat you as one in return.

                            If, on the other hand, you don't consider me a reasonable person, why would you want to talk to me, and why would I want to listen to you?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              This is addressed to Occam, but I hope it's OK if I jump in.

                              Originally posted by Josheb View Post
                              Why are you an atheist?
                              Because to me, this does not look like a world which was created and governed by a supreme intelligence. I see nothing which suggests a higher purpose.

                              Originally posted by Josheb View Post
                              Whether theist or not, what, specifically, is it you believe (relevant to the question of God's existence)?
                              I think it is unlikely that God exists, but not impossible.

                              Originally posted by Josheb View Post
                              Do you understand that a person believing in the existence of God (theism) is not the same as believing (or practicing) religion?
                              Yes. If a person is persuaded that God exists by (for example) Aristotle's argument from first cause, he or she still doesn't have to practice any kind of devotion. If God is simply the first cause, there's no particular reason to.

                              Originally posted by Josheb View Post
                              Do you, or can you, understand an anti-religious position is not the same as an anti-theist position?
                              If you mean, "the bad conduct of the leaders and followers of organized religion(s) does not demonstrate that God does not exist," yes, I understand that.

                              Originally posted by Josheb View Post
                              Do you, or can you, understand an anti-theist position is a religious position in antithesis?
                              Not really. It's a position about religion, but it's not a "religious position" as that is usually understood. I think of a religious position as one stemming from religious belief, and I think of religious belief as one which positively asserts something either supernatural or at least metaphysical about the world. "Theism is false" doesn't make such a positive assertion, it just denies one such assertion. If you want to define things differently, however, that's fine with me: so long as we both know what's the definition being used for purposes of conversation.


                              Originally posted by Josheb View Post
                              What is the basis for believing "the standard of proof for a religion should be very high"?
                              I don't know if I'd defend that hill. People can believe in a religion on the basis of a personal experience which is impossible to communicate to others, let alone prove to others, and I'm not really interested in telling them that they have failed to meet the rational standard.


                              Originally posted by Josheb View Post
                              Do you hold others to a lesser standard? What is the basis for maintaining two standards? What might that lesser standard be?
                              I'm not sure what you mean here: standard of proof? I'm not aware of holding anybody to either a higher or lesser standard than I hold myself. Moral standard? It's probably a good idea to try to hold yourself to a higher standard than others, since 1) you can only control your own actions directly, and you don't really know what other people's situations are which might contribute to their bad conduct, and 2) there's such a strong tendency to hold yourself to a lower standard that some overcompensation is in order.


                              Originally posted by Josheb View Post
                              From where does the "entitlement" to hold religious people to a very high standard originate?
                              In some cases, it might come from the sacred texts of their religion. If one such text says or implies that the followers will receive certain gifts, such as love, joy, peace and patience, and the followers are (to put it mildly) not conspicuously in possession of such gifts, it's reasonable to conclude that either the text is wrong or the supposed follower is not a real one.


                              Originally posted by Josheb View Post
                              Why do you subscribe to Rand's "money speech"?
                              I don't, so this one is just for Occam (as are the followups).
                              I promise that if you treat me as a reasonable person -- someone who is open to good arguments and clear explanations -- I will treat you as one in return.

                              If, on the other hand, you don't consider me a reasonable person, why would you want to talk to me, and why would I want to listen to you?

                              Comment

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