Announcement

Collapse

Message to all users:

https://carm.org/forum-rules

Super Member Subscription
https://carm.org/carm-super-members-banner-ad-signup

As most of you are aware, we had a crash to forums and were down for over two days a while back. We did have to do an upgrade to the vbulletin software to fix the forums and that has created changes, VB no longer provide the hybrid or threaded forums. There are some issues/changes to the forums we are not able to fix or change. Also note the link address change, please let friends and posters know of the changed link to the forums. For now this is the only link available, https://forums.carm.org/vb5/ but if clicking on forum on carm.org homepage it will now send you to this link. (edited to add https: now working.

Again, we are working through some of the posting and viewing issues to learn how to post with the changes, you will have to check and test the different features, icons that have changed. You may also want to go to profile settings,since many of the notifications, information in profile, also to update/edit your avatar by clicking on avatar space, pull down arrow next to login for user settings.

Edit to add "How to read forums, to make it easier."
Pull down arrow next to login name upper right select profile, or user settings when page opens to profile,select link in tab that says Account. Then select/choose options, go down to Conversation Detail Options, Select Display mode Posts, NOT Activity, that selection of Posts will make the pages of discussions go to last post on last page rather than out of order that happens if you choose activity threads. Then be sure to go to bottom and select SAVE Changes in your profile options. You can then follow discussions by going through the pages, to the last page having latest responses. Then click on the other links Privacy, Notifications, to select viewing options,the forums get easier if you open all the tabs or links in your profile, user settings and select options. To join Super Member, pull down arrow next to login name, select User Settings and then click on tab/link at top that says Subscriptions.

Thank you for your patience and God Bless.

Diane S
https://carm.org/forum-rules
See more
See less

God Belief Is NOT Rocket Science!

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • God Belief Is NOT Rocket Science!

    The Claim:

    Correct, god belief is NOT rocket science. Rocket science can be demonstrated and independently verified by experiment and measurement. No such verification or demonstration is possible with Christianity. That Christians, Muslims, atheists, and Mormons all use the same rocket science (because they must) yet disagree on god (because there’s no confirming experiments or measurements prohibiting it) proves that there’s NOT a GOOD reason to commit to any brand of god belief nor claim that it is true or accurate.


    Corollary:

    No ..magic belief.. as is espoused by various religious and spiritual acolytes is testable by any known method. When CARM members claim that it can be tested, they are being dishonest and they never provide exact methods by which testing can even occur. Dawkins, perhaps, or maybe some other famous atheist has often suggested that if all human knowledge were lost, science and math and physics and chemistry would eventually be rediscovered and the same principles be established as truth; however, the worldís religions would be completely different.


    Responses:

    So far, I havenít noticed or collected any responses that didnít evade the point. Iíve been putting forth this argument (in one of its forms or another) for several years, now, and I donít recall ever hearing anything even approaching a sensible rebuttal. Where experiment is possible, knowledge becomes more defined and meaningful and allows practical application (modern tech). Where there is merely the clashing of opinions, no certainties can be reached nor measurable effect quantified or utilized.


    Conclusion:

    Although this argument does not falsify any faith based belief, it does crystallize the reason why faith cannot be and SHOULD NOT BE ever viewed as being more than a fantasy.


    Notes:

    I confess that I really donít understand how this fact is not more noticed and acknowledged by believers. Itís a pretty big problem and I donít see how they can ignore it or pretend it doesnít apply. If anyone has any idea on why believers remain so oblivious to simple reasoning, share your thoughts on the matter of you feel like it.

    Cheers!

  • #2
    Originally posted by Zaphod View Post
    If anyone has any idea on why believers remain so oblivious to simple reasoning, share your thoughts on the matter of you feel like it.
    You can't reasonably refute the product of a belief system which rejects the utility of reason.

    There are certainly reasonable believers, and some of their Christian brothers/sisters post here. Nevertheless, Christianity values faith and devalues reason. Trying to reason with Christian arguments is doomed to failure, for the same reason that science fails to explain why some paintings are better than others.

    Plus, there's the whole tribal thing. Religion - while far from dead - is under withering assault from empiricism, and many believers treat any critic as "the enemy". You, Zaphod, are to be resisted simply because you're not in lock-step with the amens from believers here.

    With a few notable exceptions, believers here are willfully unreasonable. They're oblivious because you and reason are the enemy.
    a nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people.
    ~ John F Kennedy

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Zaphod View Post
      . . . . .. . . .


      Conclusion:

      Although this argument does not falsify any faith based belief, it does crystallize the reason why faith cannot be and SHOULD NOT BE ever viewed as being more than a fantasy.


      Notes:

      I confess that I really don’t understand how this fact is not more noticed and acknowledged by believers. It’s a pretty big problem and I don’t see how they can ignore it or pretend it doesn’t apply. If anyone has any idea on why believers remain so oblivious to simple reasoning, share your thoughts on the matter of you feel like it.

      Cheers!
      Is fantasy the right term? Some fields do not provide nice and tidy results that rocket science does. History is one such endeavor, literature analysis is another, we do not get the clear and concise answer in all domains of the human mind. (find two philosophers who agree!)

      The problem is os noticed by some believers, many do reject that there is ironclad historical proof of the gospels as historical narrative, reject the ironclad proof of the existence of G-d, reject any clear proof that the problem of evil is resolved.

      The same Christians point to the need for faith, which recognizes things not seen. But if there are all these clear resolutions to those problems, faith is not needed and faith is reduced to an intellectual exercise.

      Is the study of history a step into fantasy?

      Comment


      • #4
        Correct, God is not swimming pools, nor rocket science.
        “An atheist has to know a lot more than I know. An atheist is someone who knows there is no God.”
        Carl Sagan

        God is love.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by simplicio View Post

          Is fantasy the right term? Some fields do not provide nice and tidy results that rocket science does. History is one such endeavor, literature analysis is another, we do not get the clear and concise answer in all domains of the human mind. (find two philosophers who agree!)

          The problem is os noticed by some believers, many do reject that there is ironclad historical proof of the gospels as historical narrative, reject the ironclad proof of the existence of G-d, reject any clear proof that the problem of evil is resolved.

          The same Christians point to the need for faith, which recognizes things not seen. But if there are all these clear resolutions to those problems, faith is not needed and faith is reduced to an intellectual exercise.

          Is the study of history a step into fantasy?
          Great post! I donít have the time, rightt now, to really dig into it, but I wanted to address the concluding question: No, I donít think so because we know that events did occur in history and we have a record. We canít trust the record and must investigate the claims of the record thoroughly, but we do know something happened and we know something of the result because we live in that world.

          Great thought provoking ideas!

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Zaphod View Post
            That Christians, Muslims, atheists, and Mormons all use the same rocket science (because they must) yet disagree on god (because there’s no confirming experiments or measurements prohibiting it) proves that there’s NOT a GOOD reason to commit to any brand of god belief nor claim that it is true or accurate.
            I don't think it does. There's not really anything precluding the existence of widespread irrationality on the issue of God's existence, so there's no reason to think that the conclusions people arrive at are representative of the evidence.

            I agree that there's no evidence for God's existence, but you should really base your position on God's existence on your own best assessment of the evidence, not on the conclusions other people have arrived at.
            "There is no singular thing in nature that is more useful to man than a man who lives according to the guidance of reason."
            ~ Spinoza, Ethics, 4p35c1

            Comment


            • #7
              Almighty God says little sin-loving, God rejecting men have NO excuse!!! =Zero!!Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

              Romans 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

              Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

              Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

              Romans 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools
              Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

              Romans 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

              Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

              Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

              Romans 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

              Comment


              • #8
                Poor Zaphod. He just can't get his Creator to obey his command to step into his pseudo-philosophical laboratory in order to be examined and probed, so naturally he has no alternative but to declare that he has no Creator. God MUST be object, while he, Zaphod, is subject. It just can't be vice-versa. If he could just run some experiments on God or at least get God to explain Himself better than He has in the 66 books of the Bible He gave us, maybe our copy editor might graciously grant his Creator a little credibility, because surely his Creator yearns for our Zaphod to, like Satan, give mental assent to His existence. Why can't the Creator of guinea pigs be Zaphod's guinea pig?
                Signature? You want a signature? I'll show you a signature!
                John Hancock

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by stiggywiggy View Post
                  Poor Zaphod. He just can't get his Creator to obey his command to step into his pseudo-philosophical laboratory in order to be examined and probed, so naturally he has no alternative but to declare that he has no Creator. God MUST be object, while he, Zaphod, is subject. It just can't be vice-versa. If he could just run some experiments on God or at least get God to explain Himself better than He has in the 66 books of the Bible He gave us, maybe our copy editor might graciously grant his Creator a little credibility, because surely his Creator yearns for our Zaphod to, like Satan, give mental assent to His existence. Why can't the Creator of guinea pigs be Zaphod's guinea pig?
                  I'll bet this sounded much better in your head...
                  a nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people.
                  ~ John F Kennedy

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    deleted
                    Last edited by Mod8; 09-04-19, 12:10 PM. Reason: Trolling, insulting, off topic
                    Signature? You want a signature? I'll show you a signature!
                    John Hancock

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by America View Post
                      You can't reasonably refute the product of a belief system which rejects the utility of reason.

                      There are certainly reasonable believers, and some of their Christian brothers/sisters post here. Nevertheless, Christianity values faith and devalues reason. Trying to reason with Christian arguments is doomed to failure, for the same reason that science fails to explain why some paintings are better than others.

                      Plus, there's the whole tribal thing. Religion - while far from dead - is under withering assault from empiricism, and many believers treat any critic as "the enemy". You, Zaphod, are to be resisted simply because you're not in lock-step with the amens from believers here.

                      With a few notable exceptions, believers here are willfully unreasonable. They're oblivious because you and reason are the enemy.
                      As science progresses and god eventually runs out of hiding places, religious faith will have to evolve if it is to survive.
                      With all the conflicting religious beliefs in the world, they can’t all be right. But they can all be wrong.
                      Herb Silverman.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Occam View Post
                        I don't think it does. There's not really anything precluding the existence of widespread irrationality on the issue of God's existence, so there's no reason to think that the conclusions people arrive at are representative of the evidence.

                        I agree that there's no evidence for God's existence, but you should really base your position on God's existence on your own best assessment of the evidence, not on the conclusions other people have arrived at.
                        I agree, but thatís not the purview or the OP. The thesis of the OP is that of KIND/TYPE of evidence. There is no measuring that can be done on the claims of the topic.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by aussiedave View Post
                          As science progresses and god eventually runs out of hiding places, religious faith will have to evolve if it is to survive.
                          I've had the same thought for decades now. I'm willing to bet that you and I are simply the latest in a centuries-long line of people who've felt the same way...
                          a nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people.
                          ~ John F Kennedy

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by stiggywiggy View Post
                            Poor Zaphod. He just can't get his Creator to obey his command to step into his pseudo-philosophical laboratory in order to be examined and probed, so naturally he has no alternative but to declare that he has no Creator. God MUST be object, while he, Zaphod, is subject. It just can't be vice-versa. If he could just run some experiments on God or at least get God to explain Himself better than He has in the 66 books of the Bible He gave us, maybe our copy editor might graciously grant his Creator a little credibility, because surely his Creator yearns for our Zaphod to, like Satan, give mental assent to His existence. Why can't the Creator of guinea pigs be Zaphod's guinea pig?
                            Thank you for agreeing with the obvious truth of the OP! Your acquiescence is nicely put.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Zaphod View Post

                              Thank you for agreeing with the obvious truth of the OP! Your acquiescence is nicely put.
                              So we both agree. Try as you'd like you are impotent at forcing God to function as your guinea pig, and there is a vast difference between theology and rocket science.
                              Signature? You want a signature? I'll show you a signature!
                              John Hancock

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X