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  • Divisive Title

    In response to the following verse:


    "And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
    18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
    19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return."


    a CARM Christian replied:


    "First, I read the word "curse." If you read what the text specifically states only two things are specifically cursed and neither of them are attributed to God cursing anything. There is, instead, a sort of normal ordinary cause-and-effect described. I know the analogy is crude but the premise one person's behavior could have an adverse effect on the entire ecology of the planet isn't so far reaching when we realize the act of observing an atomic particle changes the atomic particle. This "butterfly effect," if you will, is a much more reasonable, rational and consistent explanation than an angry God cursing blameless ignoramuses


    Here is my response to what was said:


    Normal, ordinary cause and effect?

    Who do you think is responsible for having created the mechanism of normal and ordinary cause and effect???

    If one person's behavior can have an adverse effect on the entire ecology of the planet THEN THIS IS BY THE HAND OF GOD!
    God, and God alone, possesses the power to decide such a thing!!
    God, Himself, created and instituted what you refer to as normal, ordinary cause and effect!!!

    I'll say it again in the hopes that it will sink in...

    If one person's behavior can have an adverse effect on the entire ecology of the planet THEN THIS IS BY THE HAND OF GOD!
    God, and God alone, possesses the power to decide such a thing!!
    God, Himself, created and instituted what you refer to as normal, ordinary cause and effect!!!


    Thoughts?
    Does a so-called normal and ordinary cause and effect exist outside of and independent of God?

  • #2
    Originally posted by Treeplanter View Post
    Who do you think is responsible for having created the mechanism of normal and ordinary cause and effect???
    No one. Who "created" 1 and 1 equaling 2?

    It' s an EDITED question. Cause and effect being created inherently implies the preexistence of cause and effect:

    Cause: Creation


    Effect: That which is created.
    Last edited by Mod8; 09-14-19, 10:29 AM. Reason: divisive content
    Signature? You want a signature? I'll show you a signature!
    John Hancock

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Treeplanter View Post


      Thoughts?
      Does a so-called normal and ordinary cause and effect exist outside of and independent of God?
      Not quite sure what you're getting at...but if I strike a cue ball with my pool stick...and it hits the 8 ball at the right place and angle....the effect is the ball will be propelled with the exchange of energy and fall into the corner pocket. Rules are in place. Two 1's to a two input and gate will cause the output to go from a 0 to a 1. Sin has an effect on nature.

      Romans 8: 19 The creation waits in eager expectation for the revelation of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but because of the One who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. 22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until the present time.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by CrowCross View Post

        Not quite sure what you're getting at...but if I strike a cue ball with my pool stick...and it hits the 8 ball at the right place and angle....the effect is the ball will be propelled with the exchange of energy and fall into the corner pocket. Rules are in place. Two 1's to a two input and gate will cause the output to go from a 0 to a 1. Sin has an effect on nature.

        Romans 8: 19 The creation waits in eager expectation for the revelation of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but because of the One who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. 22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until the present time.
        Sin isn't physical, it's a concept. How does it affect nature?
        "My own suspicion is that the universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose." JBS Haldane.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Whatsisface View Post

          Sin isn't physical, it's a concept. How does it affect nature?
          It can be manifested in the natural.

          Comment


          • #6
            EDITED

            Do not call others names
            Last edited by Mod8; 09-14-19, 10:26 AM. Reason: Divisive content
            “An atheist has to know a lot more than I know. An atheist is someone who knows there is no God.”
            Carl Sagan

            God is love.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by CrowCross View Post

              Not quite sure what you're getting at...but if I strike a cue ball with my pool stick...and it hits the 8 ball at the right place and angle....the effect is the ball will be propelled with the exchange of energy and fall into the corner pocket. Rules are in place. Two 1's to a two input and gate will cause the output to go from a 0 to a 1. Sin has an effect on nature.

              Romans 8: 19 The creation waits in eager expectation for the revelation of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but because of the One who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. 22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until the present time.
              What I am getting at is this:

              It is utterly absurd to attribute our being born at enmity with God to a "normal and ordinary cause and effect"

              The poster in question is suggesting that Adam's defiance is the cause and the effect is that every single human being to follow is born with a nature that inevitably compels us to sin

              A ball being propelled with the exchange of energy having been struck by a stick is a case of normal and ordinary cause and effect, but a single act of defiance committed by one man 6,000 years ago resulting in an existence for you and I wherein it is impossible for us to live up to God's standard is NOT a case of normal and ordinary cause and effect!

              Perhaps some character defects can be passed genetically from parent to child, but we know for a fact that just because a father possesses an angry nature with a propensity for violence this does NOT mean that the son will have necessarily inherited an angry nature with a propensity for violence

              By the same token, a mother with a kind and loving nature manifesting itself in lifelong acts of charity may well give birth to a daughter with a cruel and selfish nature given to a complete disregard for others

              This poster has asserted that Adam was created good, unashamed, and sinless

              Evidently, this same poster must believe that Adam's single act of defiance transformed his nature from good to one that is at enmity with God and then genetically passed this nature to each and every single human being to follow

              Ridiculous!
              A single act of defiance transforming one's nature is NOT normal and ordinary cause and effect
              A single man genetically transferring his nature to each and every human being to have ever lived is NOT normal and ordinary cause and effect

              However, even if it were, this still does NOT let God off the hook for it is He who instituted this mechanism whereby more than 100 billion human beings are made to suffer for a single poor choice made by a single human being

              Comment


              • #8
                EDITED for bickering
                Last edited by Mod8; 09-14-19, 10:27 AM. Reason: bickering

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Treeplanter View Post

                  .... this still does NOT let God off the hook ..........
                  Heh, you picturing God on YOUR hook evokes an hilarious image of a red wiggler worm thinking it has Quint on the hook.
                  Signature? You want a signature? I'll show you a signature!
                  John Hancock

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by stiggywiggy View Post

                    No one. Who "created" 1 and 1 equaling 2?

                    It' s an ignoramus question. Cause and effect being created inherently implies the preexistence of cause and effect:

                    Cause: Creation

                    Effect: That which is created.
                    That every human being to have ever lived - over 100 billion of 'em - has inherited from a single man a nature that puts each of us at enmity with God is NOT a normal and ordinary cause and effect!

                    However, if you want to refer to this mechanism as 'cause and effect' - have at it - just know that it was God who instituted what you are EDIT referring to as cause and effect


                    EDIT for blasphemy

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Treeplanter View Post

                      However, if you want to refer to this mechanism as 'cause and effect' -
                      You're confused. You're the one who referred to it as a "mechanism." The fact that causes produce effects is inherent in the definition of "cause." No mechanism is involved.
                      Signature? You want a signature? I'll show you a signature!
                      John Hancock

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                      • #12
                        The concept has been around for centuries and the nature of involvement is a matter of some debate but the fact of creation's cause-and-effect structure is not.

                        So - once again - when anyone makes statements that are not representative of what Christianity asserts and then the misrepresentation is criticized the practice is called a straw man. Straw man arguments are always and everywhere fallacious.
                        Originally posted by Treeplanter View Post
                        Does a so-called normal and ordinary cause and effect exist outside of and independent of God?
                        Yes. The creation God created is created that way.


                        I can make a combustion engine and once made I can start it up and it will run on its own just fine as long as it has fuel (and lubricant, etc.). It doesn't need me to push each piston in synchronized manner with each valve and light each cylinder afire for it to work. I could probably design an engine that required a different degree of my involvement in both frequency and degree of involvement but the engine works just fine as designed.

                        I can make such an engine but according to you God cannot.



                        It's such a simple analogy the fact you can't or won't let yourself figure this out disqualifies you being critic of anything. "Ignoramuses" is, sadly, an appropriate title (even though it probably violates the tou), just not as intended.

                        All verses cited or quoted or in the NAS unless otherwise noted.

                        “if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not win the prize unless he competes according to the rules.” (2 Tim. 2:5)

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                        • #13
                          Deleted for insult
                          Last edited by Mod8; 09-14-19, 10:37 AM. Reason: 12
                          “An atheist has to know a lot more than I know. An atheist is someone who knows there is no God.”
                          Carl Sagan

                          God is love.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by CrowCross View Post

                            It can be manifested in the natural.
                            How so?
                            "My own suspicion is that the universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose." JBS Haldane.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Deleted for bickering
                              Last edited by Mod8; 09-14-19, 10:38 AM. Reason: bickering
                              Signature? You want a signature? I'll show you a signature!
                              John Hancock

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