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  • Quoting Matt Dillahunty

    https://forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/se...91#post6130691

    Originally posted by WhatsisFace View Post
    I would say no. To quote Matt Dillahunty, if I want to know if a pen works, is it circular to pick it up and use it?



    Originally posted by STEVEB View Post
    Oh.... perfect! Thank you. You just achieved in a few words what I've been telling you for almost 7 years. Congratulations!

    Then Matt Dillahunty would agree with the bible's statement quoting Jesus.


    20 At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. 21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.Ē

    22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, ďLord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?Ē

    23 Jesus answered and said to him, ďIf anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. 24 He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Fatherís who sent Me.


    Or, in Matt's terms.... if I want to know if Jesus is real, I'd engage him on the terms he's defined, and follow his instructions.

    Nothing circular about it!
    In response to Calvert's question regarding empiricism, WiF responded that if someone wants to know how to use an object, they only need t pick it up, and start learning to use it.

    In like manner, if someone wants to know another person, they only need to engage that individual, and learn to interact with them. It's not a difficult concept, but it is something that requires learning about that person.

    For a long, long, long time, people have tried to reduce Christianity to a philosophical construct, removing the heart/soul of Jesus from it.

    Earlier this morning I responded to Jeeper's comments about his views on Christianity. I'll only state here that church history is not Christianity. It's the ideas and practices of people who claimed to have loved God, and been doing what they believed he wanted.
    I won't argue the problems of church history, because in the end, Jesus did not come to save perfect people. He came to save sinners. People whose lives, families, and friends were ruined by sin. In Jesus' day, such people were generally ostracized by their societies/culture/civilization.

    And going back to the basics--- sin is the violation of the 10 commandments.

    People were making false images into gods. They were taking God's Name in vain, misusing it (the religionists were the worst on this one, and that's why they took the brunt of Jesus' rebukes).

    People constantly worked 7 days a week. They dishonored their parents by their lifestyles, choices, words, and behaviors.
    They cheated on their spouses, had sex with others they were not married to, both before and after marriage.
    They lied, stole, murdered, and coveted their neighbors' belongings, property, children, wives, etc....

    In short, they were fallen humans whom God loved dearly, but their sin kept them isolated from God, when he deeply desired to walk with them in their daily lives, as a Father, and husband.

    If you believe you're perfect, don't need a savior, then Jesus is not for you.
    If you recognize that you are imperfect, so much so that you didn't fit into church culture, then you're exactly whom Jesus came to save.
    None of the people I've known throughout my life ever fit into church culture, except perhaps when they were really young children, and hadn't learned how to piss everyone off yet.

    This is exactly why I love Jesus-- He came to save the ugliest, meanest, onriest, most undesirable people in humanity.
    People whose lives have literally been ruined by sin. Aka, broken the 10 commandments in every way conceiveable and then some.

    Some folks might get their panties in a bunch over this, but it is true.


    So..... instead of arguing..... come to Jesus.
    He's not a philosophical construct.
    He's a real person, who really saves real people.
    And yes, he actually did rise from the dead!


    So,,, going back to WiF's excellent quote of Matt D.....

    Come to Jesus. Learn of him.


    25 At that time Jesus answered and said, ďI thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes. 26 Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight. 27 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.

    28 Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.Ē


    God is real. He can be known. You only cheat yourself by giving what you call reasons, and are nothing more than excuses. There's an old saying:
    an excuse is nothing more than a skin of reason, over a skeleton of lies.

  • #2
    Wrong. There is no conclusive and verifiable test that would show the Bible is correct. I thought it was true and lived as a Christian for thirty years, so no, pretending it should true while you convince yourself to believe itís true as a way of becoming a Christian as you suggest does not necessarily have the outcome you claim.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by SteveB View Post
      https://forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/se...91#post6130691

      In response to Calvert's question regarding empiricism, WiF responded that if someone wants to know how to use an object, they only need t pick it up, and start learning to use it.

      In like manner, if someone wants to know another person, they only need to engage that individual, and learn to interact with them. It's not a difficult concept, but it is something that requires learning about that person.
      Your analogy is faulty. When i get to know someone i interact on many physical levels in that I can see them, hear them, perhaps smell them, touch them. I know they are a part of the real world. With God it's not the same, it all happens internally in the heart and the head, subject to our all too human prejudices and biases.

      Another problem is that Muslims will say they have the same sort of relationship with Allah.

      Originally posted by SteveB View Post
      For a long, long, long time, people have tried to reduce Christianity to a philosophical construct, removing the heart/soul of Jesus from it.
      If you're basing all this on feelings, I'm right to be suspicious.

      Originally posted by SteveB View Post
      If you believe you're perfect, don't need a savior, then Jesus is not for you.
      Please don't make the mistake that atheists think they're perfect.

      Originally posted by SteveB View Post
      So..... instead of arguing..... come to Jesus.
      He's not a philosophical construct.
      He's a real person, who really saves real people.
      And yes, he actually did rise from the dead!
      You can't reasonably come to Jesus if you have no good reason to think he's there in the first place, and to believe he is there in the first place is a terrible reason to think you then know Him.

      Originally posted by SteveB View Post
      So,,, going back to WiF's excellent quote of Matt D.....

      Come to Jesus. Learn of him.
      Matt Dillahunty has done this, but when he had doubts he looked to the Bible to reaffirm his faith, but as with so many, it backfired.

      Why don't you call him tomorrow on the Atheist Experience show on You Tube and talk about it?




      "My own suspicion is that the universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose." JBS Haldane.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Zaphod View Post
        I thought it was true and lived as a Christian for thirty years.
        That's a PITY!!! IF you ever had actually BEEN a Christian (born again of the Holy SPirit), you'd look at things differently. I've been a Christian for 56 years, and it just gets better every year.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Bob Carabbio View Post

          That's a PITY!!! IF you ever had actually BEEN a Christian (born again of the Holy SPirit), you'd look at things differently. I've been a Christian for 56 years, and it just gets better every year.
          It’s a pity that grown people believe in fairy tales.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by SteveB View Post


            He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me.
            Is this a confession that you DON'T really love jesus since you disobey? [do unto others as you want done unto you]
            AWESOME SAUCE
            Perception is awareness shaped by beliefs
            Beliefs "control" perception

            ..... Rewrite beliefs and you rewrite perceptions
            .......... Rewrite perceptions and you rewrite behaviors


            Adopting a Do Not Feed The Trolls practice.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Zaphod View Post

              It’s a pity that grown people believe in fairy tales.
              They believe corpses came out of their graves {ZOMBIES} and walked around WITHOUT a single eyewitness account or historical record
              IF something as radical & unreasonable as that, it would have been MAJOR MAJOR news and many many different families would have written about it
              Perception is awareness shaped by beliefs
              Beliefs "control" perception

              ..... Rewrite beliefs and you rewrite perceptions
              .......... Rewrite perceptions and you rewrite behaviors


              Adopting a Do Not Feed The Trolls practice.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Zaphod View Post
                Itís a pity that grown people believe in fairy tales.
                The REAL problem being that You're actually the following your own disappointing "Fairy tale", and I've got BUCKETS of proof over the last 56 years that theres NO PROBLEM whatsoever with my life choices (Becoming a Born Again Christian).

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Bob Carabbio View Post

                  The REAL problem being that You're actually the following your own disappointing "Fairy tale", and I've got BUCKETS of proof over the last 56 years that theres NO PROBLEM whatsoever with my life choices (Becoming a Born Again Christian).
                  I think you've written of some episodes in your life that you think proof. They were nothing of the sort.
                  "My own suspicion is that the universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose." JBS Haldane.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Whatsisface View Post

                    Your analogy is faulty. When i get to know someone i interact on many physical levels in that I can see them, hear them, perhaps smell them, touch them. I know they are a part of the real world. With God it's not the same, it all happens internally in the heart and the head, subject to our all too human prejudices and biases.
                    Not only it is subject to prejudice and bias, but there's nothing outside of your head that would make you think what's in your head has any reality outside of your head. That is, if it's all in your head, it's all in your head.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Zaphod View Post
                      Wrong. There is no conclusive and verifiable test that would show the Bible is correct. I thought it was true and lived as a Christian for thirty years, so no, pretending it should true while you convince yourself to believe it’s true as a way of becoming a Christian as you suggest does not necessarily have the outcome you claim.
                      Sounds like you never actually met Jesus.

                      I have to agree with BobC. Being born again is a necessity to know God.

                      The fact that you left is proof you were never a follower of Jesus to begin with. 1 John 2:19.

                      Rom 8:3-9 WEB 3 For what the law couldnít do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God did, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh; 4 that the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace; 7 because the mind of the flesh is hostile toward God; for it is not subject to Godís law, neither indeed can it be. 8 Those who are in the flesh canít please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if it is so that the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if any man doesnít have the Spirit of Christ, he is not his.

                      I'm often intrigued with people who say they lived as a Christian and then left off following Jesus.

                      Living as a Christian means that we live in a manner that requires the Spirit of God to be in our lives.
                      according to Romans 8, it's impossible to keep the law of God apart from God's Spirit.
                      The flesh, aka, human means, and strength, cannot keep the law because the law is spiritual and we are carnal, spiritually dead, because of sin.

                      Rom 7:8-14 WEB 8 But sin, finding occasion through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of coveting. For apart from the law, sin is dead. 9 I was alive apart from the law once, but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10 The commandment which was for life, this I found to be for death; 11 for sin, finding occasion through the commandment, deceived me, and through it killed me. 12 Therefore the law indeed is holy, and the commandment holy, and righteous, and good. 13 Did then that which is good become death to me? May it never be! But sin, that it might be shown to be sin, was producing death in me through that which is good; that through the commandment sin might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am fleshly, sold under sin.

                      Following Jesus (aka being a Christian, living as a Christian) consists of walking in the Spirit, which according to Romans 8 is only possible if 2 things are taking place.
                      1- the Spirit of Christ is in you.
                      2- you focus your thinking on spiritual things.

                      The question then becomes how does one know if God's Spirit is in you?
                      And are you focusing your thinking on spiritual things.
                      Jesus said that the flesh profits nothing, and His Words are Spirit and they are life. John 6:63.

                      so your claim that you lived as a Christian for 30 years, and then just walked away raises some serious questions about how you can do what you say, without ever actually knowing God.

                      It's far more likely that you, as Paul told Timothy, "had a form of godliness but denied the power thereof."

                      Thus, you can indeed continue to justify yourself, but your own testimony shows that you were only a religious person, but never actually met Jesus.

                      The word does offer you repentance towards God and faith in the risen Jesus.

                      1Jn 5:16 WEB If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life for those who sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death. I donít say that he should make a request concerning this.


                      Jas 5:19-20 WEB 19 Brothers, if any among you wanders from the truth and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.


                      Turn to him.

                      Turn to him from your sin and place your trust in Jesus.

                      1Th 1:9-10 WEB 9 For they themselves report concerning us what kind of a reception we had from you, and how you turned to God from idols, to serve a living and true God, 10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead: Jesus, who delivers us from the wrath to come.
                      God is real. He can be known. You only cheat yourself by giving what you call reasons, and are nothing more than excuses. There's an old saying:
                      an excuse is nothing more than a skin of reason, over a skeleton of lies.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by SteveB View Post

                        Sounds like you never actually met Jesus.

                        I have to agree with BobC. Being born again is a necessity to know God.

                        The fact that you left is proof you were never a follower of Jesus to begin with. 1 John 2:19.

                        Rom 8:3-9 WEB 3 For what the law couldn’t do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God did, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh; 4 that the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace; 7 because the mind of the flesh is hostile toward God; for it is not subject to God’s law, neither indeed can it be. 8 Those who are in the flesh can’t please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if it is so that the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if any man doesn’t have the Spirit of Christ, he is not his.

                        I'm often intrigued with people who say they lived as a Christian and then left off following Jesus.

                        Living as a Christian means that we live in a manner that requires the Spirit of God to be in our lives.
                        according to Romans 8, it's impossible to keep the law of God apart from God's Spirit.
                        The flesh, aka, human means, and strength, cannot keep the law because the law is spiritual and we are carnal, spiritually dead, because of sin.

                        Rom 7:8-14 WEB 8 But sin, finding occasion through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of coveting. For apart from the law, sin is dead. 9 I was alive apart from the law once, but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10 The commandment which was for life, this I found to be for death; 11 for sin, finding occasion through the commandment, deceived me, and through it killed me. 12 Therefore the law indeed is holy, and the commandment holy, and righteous, and good. 13 Did then that which is good become death to me? May it never be! But sin, that it might be shown to be sin, was producing death in me through that which is good; that through the commandment sin might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am fleshly, sold under sin.

                        Following Jesus (aka being a Christian, living as a Christian) consists of walking in the Spirit, which according to Romans 8 is only possible if 2 things are taking place.
                        1- the Spirit of Christ is in you.
                        2- you focus your thinking on spiritual things.

                        The question then becomes how does one know if God's Spirit is in you?
                        And are you focusing your thinking on spiritual things.
                        Jesus said that the flesh profits nothing, and His Words are Spirit and they are life. John 6:63.

                        so your claim that you lived as a Christian for 30 years, and then just walked away raises some serious questions about how you can do what you say, without ever actually knowing God.

                        It's far more likely that you, as Paul told Timothy, "had a form of godliness but denied the power thereof."

                        Thus, you can indeed continue to justify yourself, but your own testimony shows that you were only a religious person, but never actually met Jesus.

                        The word does offer you repentance towards God and faith in the risen Jesus.

                        1Jn 5:16 WEB If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life for those who sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death. I don’t say that he should make a request concerning this.


                        Jas 5:19-20 WEB 19 Brothers, if any among you wanders from the truth and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.


                        Turn to him.

                        Turn to him from your sin and place your trust in Jesus.

                        1Th 1:9-10 WEB 9 For they themselves report concerning us what kind of a reception we had from you, and how you turned to God from idols, to serve a living and true God, 10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead: Jesus, who delivers us from the wrath to come.
                        There is nothing in the above to show that you've met Jesus either.
                        "My own suspicion is that the universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose." JBS Haldane.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Whatsisface View Post

                          Your analogy is faulty. When i get to know someone i interact on many physical levels in that I can see them, hear them, perhaps smell them, touch them. I know they are a part of the real world. With God it's not the same, it all happens internally in the heart and the head, subject to our all too human prejudices and biases.
                          Like the biases that show your unbelief.

                          It's not a physical relationship.
                          You however have been told that for years.

                          there are some physical aspects to it.
                          My cancer healing. In spite of your repeated efforts to discount it, it's still taken place.
                          People who experience the life of God experience a variety of different types of physical interactions with God.

                          It's written

                          1Jn 1:1-7 WEB 1 That which was from the beginning, that which we have heard, that which we have seen with our eyes, that which we saw, and our hands touched, concerning the Word of life 2 (and the life was revealed, and we have seen, and testify, and declare to you the life, the eternal life, which was with the Father, and was revealed to us); 3 that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us. Yes, and our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son, Jesus Christ. 4 And we write these things to you, that our joy may be fulfilled. 5 This is the message which we have heard from him and announce to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him and walk in the darkness, we lie, and donít tell the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanses us from all sin.

                          the impact on the life of the Jesus followers is clear.

                          1- God gives us his Spirit to dwell in us, as a down payment, deposit and guarantee of our inheritance in God's Kingdom.
                          Ephesians 1:13-14, 2 Corinthians 1:21-22, 5:5
                          2- this results in our lives changing from a life of religiosity to a life of love,

                          Gal 5:16-25 WEB 16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you wonít fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, that you may not do the things that you desire. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the deeds of the flesh are obvious, which are: adultery, sexual immorality, uncleanness, lustfulness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, strife, jealousies, outbursts of anger, rivalries, divisions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these; of which I forewarn you, even as I also forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit Godís Kingdom. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, 23 gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts. 25 If we live by the Spirit, letís also walk by the Spirit.




                          Another problem is that Muslims will say they have the same sort of relationship with Allah.
                          i wouldn't know. You've never actually demonstrated that. So, by all means do so.




                          If you're basing all this on feelings, I'm right to be suspicious.
                          nope. Emotion does not define the life of God in us. It is a component as an after effect, but by no means the primary element.

                          The primary element is God's Word. It results in a changed life.

                          1Pe 1:22-25 WEB 22 Seeing you have purified your souls in your obedience to the truth through the Spirit in sincere brotherly affection, love one another from the heart fervently, 23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, through the word of God, which lives and remains forever. 24 For, ďAll flesh is like grass, and all of manís glory like the flower in the grass. The grass withers, and its flower falls; 25 but the Lordís word endures forever.Ē This is the word of Good News which was preached to you.



                          Please don't make the mistake that atheists think they're perfect.
                          i wouldn't know. They sure act like it. But I think that is due entirely to having no objective moral code. The code they claim keeps changing depending upon what is popular at any given time.
                          the atheist rant against God's Law is evidence that what Paul describes in Romans 8 is that it's True.


                          Rom 8:6-8 WEB 6 For the mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace; 7 because the mind of the flesh is hostile toward God; for it is not subject to Godís law, neither indeed can it be. 8 Those who are in the flesh canít please God.





                          You can't reasonably come to Jesus if you have no good reason to think he's there in the first place, and to believe he is there in the first place is a terrible reason to think you then know Him.
                          as it's written in Romans 3,


                          Rom 3:3 WEB For what if some were without faith? Will their lack of faith nullify the faithfulness of God?

                          However, God says otherwise!
                          He says you have plenty of reasons, but have instead deliberately chosen to close your mind.

                          Rom 1:18-23 WEB 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known of God is revealed in them, for God revealed it to them. 20 For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. 21 Because knowing God, they didnít glorify him as God, and didnít give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 and traded the glory of the incorruptible God for the likeness of an image of corruptible man, and of birds, four-footed animals, and creeping things.

                          And

                          Psa 19:1-4 WEB 1 The heavens declare the glory of God. The expanse shows his handiwork. 2 Day after day they pour out speech, and night after night they display knowledge. 3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard. 4 Their voice has gone out through all the earth, their words to the end of the world. In them he has set a tent for the sun,





                          Matt Dillahunty has done this, but when he had doubts he looked to the Bible to reaffirm his faith, but as with so many, it backfired.

                          Why don't you call him tomorrow on the Atheist Experience show on You Tube and talk about it?


                          Yeah, again I wouldn't know. You've never actually provided evidence that you're a reliable source of information.

                          I have an open OP which you've only ever whined about.

                          This past week y po ur spent 4 days accusing me of being dishonest but refused to use the time to actually provide the evidence that I'm wrong in my views.

                          This just demonstrates that it's not truth you seek, but self-justification.


                          The following is what self-justification achieves.

                          Rev 21:8 WEB But for the cowardly, unbelieving, sinners, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their part is in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.Ē
                          God is real. He can be known. You only cheat yourself by giving what you call reasons, and are nothing more than excuses. There's an old saying:
                          an excuse is nothing more than a skin of reason, over a skeleton of lies.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by SteveB View Post
                            Like the biases that show your unbelief.
                            No. I am open to being proven wrong, you are not.

                            Originally posted by SteveB View Post
                            It's not a physical relationship.
                            You however have been told that for years.
                            I know, and that's exactly my point and why your analogy is faulty. We can see, hear, smell and touch a person you interact with. You can't do that with God. All you can do is interact with Him in the same way as adherents of other religions interact with their God(s), you know, the ones you consider false as they consider yours false.

                            Originally posted by SteveB View Post
                            there are some physical aspects to it.
                            My cancer healing. In spite of your repeated efforts to discount it, it's still taken place.
                            You have yet to show this true.

                            Originally posted by SteveB View Post
                            It's written

                            1Jn 1:1-7 WEB 1 That which was from the beginning, that which we have heard, that which we have seen with our eyes, that which we saw, and our hands touched, concerning the Word of life 2 (and the life was revealed, and we have seen, and testify, and declare to you the life, the eternal life, which was with the Father, and was revealed to us); 3 that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us. Yes, and our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son, Jesus Christ. 4 And we write these things to you, that our joy may be fulfilled. 5 This is the message which we have heard from him and announce to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him and walk in the darkness, we lie, and donít tell the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanses us from all sin.
                            It is written that when Vikings die they will go to Valhalla. Does that mean it's true?

                            Originally posted by SteveB View Post
                            the impact on the life of the Jesus followers is clear.

                            1- God gives us his Spirit to dwell in us, as a down payment, deposit and guarantee of our inheritance in God's Kingdom.
                            Ephesians 1:13-14, 2 Corinthians 1:21-22, 5:5
                            2- this results in our lives changing from a life of religiosity to a life of love,

                            Gal 5:16-25 WEB 16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you wonít fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, that you may not do the things that you desire. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the deeds of the flesh are obvious, which are: adultery, sexual immorality, uncleanness, lustfulness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, strife, jealousies, outbursts of anger, rivalries, divisions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these; of which I forewarn you, even as I also forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit Godís Kingdom. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, 23 gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts. 25 If we live by the Spirit, letís also walk by the Spirit.
                            If you sincerely belief something, it will affect your life whether it's true or not.

                            Originally posted by SteveB View Post
                            i wouldn't know. You've never actually demonstrated that. So, by all means do so.
                            You are dodging the point, and you know it.

                            Originally posted by SteveB View Post
                            nope. Emotion does not define the life of God in us. It is a component as an after effect, but by no means the primary element.

                            The primary element is God's Word. It results in a changed life.

                            1Pe 1:22-25 WEB 22 Seeing you have purified your souls in your obedience to the truth through the Spirit in sincere brotherly affection, love one another from the heart fervently, 23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, through the word of God, which lives and remains forever. 24 For, ďAll flesh is like grass, and all of manís glory like the flower in the grass. The grass withers, and its flower falls; 25 but the Lordís word endures forever.Ē This is the word of Good News which was preached to you.
                            How do you now it's God's word? And again, If you sincerely believe something that will of course affect you, whether it's true or not.

                            Originally posted by SteveB View Post
                            i wouldn't know. They sure act like it. But I think that is due entirely to having no objective moral code. The code they claim keeps changing depending upon what is popular at any given time.
                            Is murder wrong because God says it is, or does God say so because it is wrong? If the first, it's arbitrary as you think atheists are. If the second, atheists can say the same.

                            Originally posted by SteveB View Post
                            the atheist rant against God's Law is evidence that what Paul describes in Romans 8 is that it's True.

                            Rom 8:6-8 WEB 6 For the mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace; 7 because the mind of the flesh is hostile toward God; for it is not subject to Godís law, neither indeed can it be. 8 Those who are in the flesh canít please God.
                            Just because Paul says that, doesn't mean God exists.

                            Originally posted by SteveB View Post
                            as it's written in Romans 3,


                            Rom 3:3 WEB For what if some were without faith? Will their lack of faith nullify the faithfulness of God?

                            However, God says otherwise!
                            He says you have plenty of reasons, but have instead deliberately chosen to close your mind.

                            Rom 1:18-23 WEB 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known of God is revealed in them, for God revealed it to them. 20 For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. 21 Because knowing God, they didnít glorify him as God, and didnít give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 and traded the glory of the incorruptible God for the likeness of an image of corruptible man, and of birds, four-footed animals, and creeping things.

                            And

                            Psa 19:1-4 WEB 1 The heavens declare the glory of God. The expanse shows his handiwork. 2 Day after day they pour out speech, and night after night they display knowledge. 3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard. 4 Their voice has gone out through all the earth, their words to the end of the world. In them he has set a tent for the sun,
                            So what? Refer back to the Norse example.

                            Originally posted by SteveB View Post
                            Yeah, again I wouldn't know. You've never actually provided evidence that you're a reliable source of information.

                            I have an open OP which you've only ever whined about.

                            This past week y po ur spent 4 days accusing me of being dishonest but refused to use the time to actually provide the evidence that I'm wrong in my views.

                            This just demonstrates that it's not truth you seek, but self-justification.
                            You were dishonest in your conduct as you're being here.
                            "My own suspicion is that the universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose." JBS Haldane.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Whatsisface View Post

                              I think you've written of some episodes in your life that you think proof. They were nothing of the sort.
                              I agree. NOTHING that I say will EVER be "Proof" of anything to you. They ARE, however, perfect proof to me.

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