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  • #61
    Originally posted by SteveB View Post

    I think you misunderstand the point.
    Jesus said that the people who sin are slaves to sin.
    moreover, Hebrews talks about the deceitfulness of sin.
    and Jeremiah said that the heart is deceitful and wicked above all else who can understand it?
    Not at all.
    I can choose when and if I "sin".
    Christians are still sinners so are they still slaves of sin?





    curious....
    I studied physics and math at the state university. From algebra all the way through Partial Differential Equations, Linear Algebra, classical mechanics, quantum mechanics, optics, electricity and magnetism, statistical mechanics and thermodynamics, astrophysics, waves and oscillations, my lab classes, in all those, I never once saw anything that would show that the bible is not true. And I kept a good GPA, of 3.44 through my upper classes.

    I find it curious that you think science is a belief/religion that would replace Jesus and the bible.
    It offers an intellectually satisfying alternative in the form of a "belief" system that usurps the need for imaginary gods.





    Interesting.... you sound like someone who believed ideas, instead of believing the Person.
    I don't believe YEC, or any other views because somebody told me that I had to believe them.
    Then you would be mistaken.

    I started with Jesus and went forward from there.
    I believe the bible explicitly because I met God, through Jesus Christ. It was not the other way around for me.
    Eg, I don't believe IN calvinism because people tell me that it's what Christians are to believe. I don't believe in the pretribulation rapture or the other eschatological ideas because people tell me that it's what Christians are supposed to believe.
    I believe what the bible says about these things because I've been introduced by Jesus to God, and actually know God is real and knowable.
    Yes, and many christians have many different experiences.
    Are you saying yours is the only correct one?
    I don't believe IN YEC, because I'm told I have to.
    I don't spend hours, weeks, months and years pouring over the writings of old dead guys who wrote about these things to be able to convince others that I'm right.
    Neither did I. I chose to believe in a literal translation of the bible.

    My studies in physics have shown me that science has no idea if evolution is real or not. It's more of a faith thing than you could possibly conceive.
    Many other people's studies find differently.

    So... I don't see how a thinking person could actually claim science proved that the bible is a fraud.
    I can easily see that if someone wanted out, they'd use it to justify their departure.
    There are many disproofs of the bible.
    I don't see how a thinking person can believe in angels, demons gods and miracles described in the bible

    There's a British mathematician by the name of John Lennox who says taking a drink from the glass of science will make you an atheist.
    but once you reach the bottom of the glass, you find that God is actually there.
    I found the exact opposite.


    oh, I have opened my mind.
    I have also been learning not to open it so far that I let it fall out.
    In all my years I have never seen one bit of evidence to prove the existence of angels, demons or gods - including when I believed everything in the bible.



    I never said anything about it. Having studied physics and math, programming, and learning other skills, I'm quite skilled in understanding the power of science to enrich and educate people.
    It doesn't however have the power to save us from our sin and the choices we make to choose things that are destructive to us.
    I also do not believe in "sin".






    i never said otherwise.
    man's religious beliefs are responsible for the very first murder. Cain's beliefs told him he could offer a grain offering. When his offering was rejected, but his brother's was received, he got pissed off and God confronted him with-- if you do what is right, won't you be accepted?

    But instead of taking the time, he refused, and in spite of further confrontation by God, he murdered his brother.

    So.... yes! Man's religion has indeed been causing all kinds of problems since Cain murdered his brother.

    Biblical christianity however is not among those.
    People who abuse the bible, people who don't understand the bible, people who disbelieve the bible and try to twist it to fit their own beliefs are those who do the crimes we all find loathsome.
    That's just it isn't it? Who among us gets to choose who is the final arbiter of scripture.






    That's what I've been tod for 42 years.
    Having been paying attention to this issue now for over 4 decades, and observing the opposite, in convictions of criminals who break the laws, I now disagree.

    People indeed have to choose what matters more to them-- social inclusion or social exiles.

    There's a book written back in the 1600's.

    It's one of two books which helped our nation's founding fathers develop the founding principles which are the basis for the constitution and bill of rights.

    Second Treatise on government, by John Locke.

    The other book is
    Spirit of Laws, by Baron D'Montisquieu.

    In them is developed the concept that in order to create a cohesive society, the members need to recognize that they are agreeing to live in harmony with each other, to build a "more perfect union."
    this means that we need to agree to live within a lawful state.

    No deception, no fraud, no murder, no stealing, etc....

    This nation actually started with these ideas, and we thrived.

    Ever heard of Sir Alexander Tytler?
    He's a Scottish historian who developed a cycle description of what happens in societies.

    I encourage you to read both books and Tytler's cycle of history.

    When a society breaks down, and the members refuse to adhere to their own laws, it is no longer a functioning society.


    So, consider this part of your scientific discovery of human civilization and human nature.
    Thanks, but I reckon I've got it pretty much figured out.
    With all the conflicting religious beliefs in the world, they can’t all be right. But they can all be wrong.
    Herb Silverman.

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by aussiedave View Post
      There is ample science to prove that a natural explanation is valid and logical.
      So ample you cannot present any.

      You have been given sufficient over the years to educate you but your religious blinders prevent you from seeing the truth.
      Still this old unsupported assertion is still your religious blinder. I guess you dont want to see the truth.

      Your AiG type sites have been debunked over and over again but the Proverb 26:11 perfectly describes your position.
      Your unsupported religious dogma blind you from seeing the truth.

      "darwin/nature is an ever-receding pocket of scientific ignorance"—me

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by aussiedave View Post
        Not at all.
        I can choose when and if I "sin".
        Christians are still sinners so are they still slaves of sin?





        It offers an intellectually satisfying alternative in the form of a "belief" system that usurps the need for imaginary gods.





        Then you would be mistaken.


        Yes, and many christians have many different experiences.
        Are you saying yours is the only correct one?
        Neither did I. I chose to believe in a literal translation of the bible.

        Many other people's studies find differently.

        There are many disproofs of the bible.
        I don't see how a thinking person can believe in angels, demons gods and miracles described in the bible

        I found the exact opposite.


        In all my years I have never seen one bit of evidence to prove the existence of angels, demons or gods - including when I believed everything in the bible.



        I also do not believe in "sin".






        That's just it isn't it? Who among us gets to choose who is the final arbiter of scripture.






        Thanks, but I reckon I've got it pretty much figured out.
        And herein lies the key.

        You already know what you want.

        Something else that I was considering about your Journey to exile yourself from the Kingdom of God.

        You stopped believing God, then you stopped believing the bible and you decided that finite humans knew better than God did, so you split.

        Had I not had miracles take place on my own person, I might not believe they're real either.

        I may not be able to touch and hold angels or demons, but I've witnessed enough things in life to know that they're real.

        But, that's neither here nor there.

        The bible doesn't say I have to believe they're real or not.

        It does however say that I have to decide whether I'll believe God, and follow Jesus.

        You took the cart before the horse and figured that if you couldn't come to terms with the cart, the horse can't be real either.

        My point was that I started with the horse.
        Everything else was a gimme after I found that God was real.



        God is real. He can be known. You only cheat yourself by giving what you call reasons, and are nothing more than excuses. There's an old saying:
        an excuse is nothing more than a skin of reason, over a skeleton of lies.

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by aussiedave View Post
          There is ample science to prove that a natural explanation is valid and logical.
          So much that you cannot present any - LOL
          "darwin/nature is an ever-receding pocket of scientific ignorance"—me

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by ferengi View Post

            So much that you cannot present any - LOL
            Your denials are telling.
            With all the conflicting religious beliefs in the world, they can’t all be right. But they can all be wrong.
            Herb Silverman.

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by SteveB View Post
              And herein lies the key.

              You already know what you want.

              Something else that I was considering about your Journey to exile yourself from the Kingdom of God.

              You stopped believing God, then you stopped believing the bible and you decided that finite humans knew better than God did, so you split.

              Had I not had miracles take place on my own person, I might not believe they're real either.

              I may not be able to touch and hold angels or demons, but I've witnessed enough things in life to know that they're real.

              But, that's neither here nor there.

              The bible doesn't say I have to believe they're real or not.

              It does however say that I have to decide whether I'll believe God, and follow Jesus.

              You took the cart before the horse and figured that if you couldn't come to terms with the cart, the horse can't be real either.

              My point was that I started with the horse.
              Everything else was a gimme after I found that God was real.


              Wrong.

              With all the conflicting religious beliefs in the world, they can’t all be right. But they can all be wrong.
              Herb Silverman.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by aussiedave View Post
                Wrong.
                You offer nothing to believe this.

                I've simply examined your words, and the results of your claims, and that's the most obvious result.

                You put the cart before the horse. People do it all the time. So much so that the phrase has become popularized in the culture I live in, and has been known to me for at least 55 years. My mom used it when I was a child, so that's adding another 17 years (taking us both back to childhood), and because she knew it then, that means it's highly likely she got it from her mom, so add another .... you know... forget this. Let's just do it this way....
                https://grammarist.com/idiom/put-the...ore-the-horse/

                According to this website, it's an idiom that date back to Roman Antiquity.


                And
                https://www.theidioms.com/put-the-ca...ore-the-horse/
                dates it to Cicero,

                Origin

                The medieval wording of the phrase was to put the oxen before the yoke. The phrase was a popular figure of speech in the 16th century. People travelled by horse and cart and there was a predetermined order in which they travelled. You could not put a horse before a cart as the horse was necessary to pull the cart.
                Roman politician and philosopher Cicero (106 B.C.–43 B.C.) mentions the phrase in his essay called "On Friendship" published in 44 B.C.
                "We put the cart before the horse, and shut the stable door when the steed is stolen, in defiance of the old proverb."
                He mentions "in defiance of the old proverb" leading some to believe that the phrase was in use even before he mentions it.
                The phrase was first recorded in English in 1589 in George Puttenham's "The arte of English Poesie":
                "We call it in English proverb, the cart before the horse, the Greeks call it Histeron proteron."
                Hysteron proteron is a figure of speech in which what should be put last is in fact put first. It calls attention to the important part by putting it first.
                "We granted his prayer and gave him John, and we made his wife fertile for him."
                - Quran (89-90, 21)
                (Theidioms.com)





                So.... I don't think I'm wrong at all. Your own statements is where I get it from.
                God is real. He can be known. You only cheat yourself by giving what you call reasons, and are nothing more than excuses. There's an old saying:
                an excuse is nothing more than a skin of reason, over a skeleton of lies.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by SteveB View Post

                  You offer nothing to believe this.

                  I've simply examined your words, and the results of your claims, and that's the most obvious result.

                  You put the cart before the horse. People do it all the time. So much so that the phrase has become popularized in the culture I live in, and has been known to me for at least 55 years. My mom used it when I was a child, so that's adding another 17 years (taking us both back to childhood), and because she knew it then, that means it's highly likely she got it from her mom, so add another .... you know... forget this. Let's just do it this way....
                  https://grammarist.com/idiom/put-the...ore-the-horse/

                  According to this website, it's an idiom that date back to Roman Antiquity.


                  And
                  https://www.theidioms.com/put-the-ca...ore-the-horse/
                  dates it to Cicero,

                  Origin

                  The medieval wording of the phrase was to put the oxen before the yoke. The phrase was a popular figure of speech in the 16th century. People travelled by horse and cart and there was a predetermined order in which they travelled. You could not put a horse before a cart as the horse was necessary to pull the cart.
                  Roman politician and philosopher Cicero (106 B.C.–43 B.C.) mentions the phrase in his essay called "On Friendship" published in 44 B.C.
                  "We put the cart before the horse, and shut the stable door when the steed is stolen, in defiance of the old proverb."
                  He mentions "in defiance of the old proverb" leading some to believe that the phrase was in use even before he mentions it.
                  The phrase was first recorded in English in 1589 in George Puttenham's "The arte of English Poesie":
                  "We call it in English proverb, the cart before the horse, the Greeks call it Histeron proteron."
                  Hysteron proteron is a figure of speech in which what should be put last is in fact put first. It calls attention to the important part by putting it first.
                  "We granted his prayer and gave him John, and we made his wife fertile for him."
                  - Quran (89-90, 21)
                  (Theidioms.com)





                  So.... I don't think I'm wrong at all. Your own statements is where I get it from.
                  You were/are wrong about the bolded bit.
                  With all the conflicting religious beliefs in the world, they can’t all be right. But they can all be wrong.
                  Herb Silverman.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by SteveB View Post

                    You offer nothing to believe this.

                    I've simply examined your words, and the results of your claims, and that's the most obvious result.

                    You put the cart before the horse. People do it all the time. So much so that the phrase has become popularized in the culture I live in, and has been known to me for at least 55 years. My mom used it when I was a child, so that's adding another 17 years (taking us both back to childhood), and because she knew it then, that means it's highly likely she got it from her mom, so add another .... you know... forget this. Let's just do it this way....


                    According to this website, it's an idiom that date back to Roman Antiquity.


                    And

                    dates it to Cicero,







                    So.... I don't think I'm wrong at all. Your own statements is where I get it from.
                    You were/are wrong about the bolded bit.

                    With all the conflicting religious beliefs in the world, they can’t all be right. But they can all be wrong.
                    Herb Silverman.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by aussiedave View Post
                      N
                      Christians are still sinners so are they still slaves of sin?



                      I also do not believe in "sin".


                      Your question and your statement tell us you were never born again.

                      Never.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Nouveau View Post

                        Your question and your statement tell us you were never born again.

                        Never.
                        And Moses & Noah & Abraham didn't tithe to preacher men and weren't born again and didn't go to heaven either (John 3:13)

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Nouveau View Post

                          Your question and your statement tell us you were never born again.

                          Never.
                          From what I can see, I doubt you were.
                          With all the conflicting religious beliefs in the world, they can’t all be right. But they can all be wrong.
                          Herb Silverman.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by aussiedave View Post
                            You were/are wrong about the bolded bit.
                            Well, again I wouldn't know.

                            You've been quite clear about your disbelief, your never having actually experienced God or Jesus before, and your extensive religiosity.

                            The bible is equally clear that there are people who quit because it gets harder than they thought it would. They get deceived by doctrines of demons, and the desires of this life. And they become scandalized by the teachings of Jesus.

                            So....
                            Your disagreement with my statement that I don't think I'm wrong is your disagreement, but it doesn't negate either the truth or the facts.

                            I don't know why you're so desperate to avoid the truth. You're obviously QUITE proud that you're an atheist. You're even more proud that you're a FORMER believer. Otherwise you wouldn't be spending so much time making the claims that you're justified in your unbelief.

                            Jesus did say that we're to count the cost, for who takes on a construction project to build a building without first determining whether or not they have enough money to finish, lest he gets part of the way through and has to stop because he ran out of funds, and those who observe mock him for not paying attention and stopping because they ran out of money.

                            We had a home here where I live that is on a residential thoroughfare that had this very thing happen to them. It wound up being finished after several years of sitting there as an unfinished stick structure.

                            Just own it AD.

                            Quite hiding behind excuses.

                            Jesus said what he did, as have most all the other bible writers, and you're not going to escape, nor more importantly, be able to successfully avoid that fact. Denying the fact of that isn't going to justify you or your position.

                            Which begs the question of why you should want to continue in your ways.

                            It is written in the Proverbs,
                            The backslidden in heart is filled with his own ways.

                            So, you've fully demonstrated that you are indeed filled with your own ways.

                            Personally, I'd rather see you follow Jesus, but since you are filled with your own ways....
                            just get honest, and real, and own your state.
                            God is real. He can be known. You only cheat yourself by giving what you call reasons, and are nothing more than excuses. There's an old saying:
                            an excuse is nothing more than a skin of reason, over a skeleton of lies.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by SteveB View Post

                              Well, again I wouldn't know.

                              You've been quite clear about your disbelief, your never having actually experienced God or Jesus before, and your extensive religiosity.

                              The bible is equally clear that there are people who quit because it gets harder than they thought it would. They get deceived by doctrines of demons, and the desires of this life. And they become scandalized by the teachings of Jesus.

                              So....
                              Your disagreement with my statement that I don't think I'm wrong is your disagreement, but it doesn't negate either the truth or the facts.

                              I don't know why you're so desperate to avoid the truth. You're obviously QUITE proud that you're an atheist. You're even more proud that you're a FORMER believer. Otherwise you wouldn't be spending so much time making the claims that you're justified in your unbelief.

                              Jesus did say that we're to count the cost, for who takes on a construction project to build a building without first determining whether or not they have enough money to finish, lest he gets part of the way through and has to stop because he ran out of funds, and those who observe mock him for not paying attention and stopping because they ran out of money.

                              We had a home here where I live that is on a residential thoroughfare that had this very thing happen to them. It wound up being finished after several years of sitting there as an unfinished stick structure.

                              Just own it AD.

                              Quite hiding behind excuses.

                              Jesus said what he did, as have most all the other bible writers, and you're not going to escape, nor more importantly, be able to successfully avoid that fact. Denying the fact of that isn't going to justify you or your position.

                              Which begs the question of why you should want to continue in your ways.

                              It is written in the Proverbs,
                              The backslidden in heart is filled with his own ways.

                              So, you've fully demonstrated that you are indeed filled with your own ways.

                              Personally, I'd rather see you follow Jesus, but since you are filled with your own ways....
                              just get honest, and real, and own your state.
                              Been there, done that.
                              Never again.
                              With all the conflicting religious beliefs in the world, they can’t all be right. But they can all be wrong.
                              Herb Silverman.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by aussiedave View Post
                                Been there, done that.
                                Never again.
                                Then you have demonstrated exactly what the bible says about people who leave following Jesus.

                                You were never actually a follower of Jesus to begin with and your departure demonstrates that.
                                1 John 2:19

                                It truly is a sad state of affairs.
                                God is real. He can be known. You only cheat yourself by giving what you call reasons, and are nothing more than excuses. There's an old saying:
                                an excuse is nothing more than a skin of reason, over a skeleton of lies.

                                Comment

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