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The Evolution of Christ

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  • #16
    Originally posted by djb View Post

    This Paul?

    15 Now I would remind you, brethren, in what terms I preached to you the gospel, which you received, in which you stand, 2 by which you are saved, if you hold it fast—unless you believed in vain.

    3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6 Then he appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. 8 Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me.

    What I'll set aside is your confused, delusional pantheism.
    Well done.
    Mouser Larry Roy: "yippee ki yay"
    “... see the loonies in their cages… are they not witty… how much amusement they afford… ours is a human world, theirs is a bestial world… " Bedlam

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by docphin View Post
      If we set aside the mythological Jesus in the gospels and Acts and strictly adhere to Paul’s Christ in his letters then it becomes apparent that Paul equates Christ to the cosmos for Paul says that Christ is “the sum of all things” (or the cosmos), and again, “Christ is all, and in all”. It follows then that evolution is a mechanism by which Christ produces us, because evolution is a mechanism by which our cosmos has produced us. Moreover, it goes with out saying that when Paul says that “all things are from and through him”, he could just as well have been speaking of the cosmos. Again, Paul discloses the mystery of “Christ in you” which is no different than saying, “the cosmos in you”. And what a great mystery that is! For no mind has conceived until now that humans are formed from stardust, yet somehow Paul perceived its essence two thousand years ago.

      If Christ be the sum of all things or the cosmos then the history of our cosmos would be the history of Christ. Christ would have been an extremely ordered, powerful thing long before our cosmos came to be. Christ would have suffered a perturbation, an expansion, a spreading out, and a tranfer from perfect order and energy into chaos and materiality. Christ then slowly but surely was rearranged by forces within our universe to produce first unicellular life on our planet. Christ (or cosmos) fed that life with energy from the sun, with heat from our planets molten core, and with nutrients from the solar system which catalyzed the evolution of life into complex organisms. Christ then selected from life on our planet one species capable of intelligent thought. Christ then selected from among those capable of intelligent thought some who would look out at the stars and seek our beginning and our purpose. What they discover is that we belong to a single thing that has a life of its own: a beginning, a fall into materiality, an evolution to consciousness, a desire for good, and a future yet to come. They discover that we are Christ or the cosmos for we are members of his one body or single thing that sums up the whole. But Christ is not finished just as our cosmos is not finished. Christ or cosmos is still evolving. Will Christ or cosmos someday return to as it was in the beginning: extremely ordered, and powerful? Will it remember us who belong to it? God only knows and if Christ or cosmos belongs to him then so should we.
      This is an interesting essay.

      What stands out for me is the similarity to pantheism (re. god <--> universe <--> nature). I'm not making any accusation along those lines; I'm just noting the analogy.

      As an atheist, I'm happy to co-exist with theists who believe differently from me, and even if they believe things I disagree very strongly with. Where I take issue is when those (disagreeable) theistic beliefs are stated to others as objective truths. Believe the earth is 6000 years ago, but don't try telling me I should believe it as well (without reasonable justification).

      I mention this only to say that while I don't necessarily agree with your OP, I don't really find much worth objecting to either - and especially not if it leads you and I in the same general direction. If Christ is the cosmos, and evolution nothing more than one expression of His will/thought/existence, then OK. If trying to understand the universe is essentially the same as trying to understand some aspect of God, then OK.

      I think your idea will get more resistance from Christians than it will from the non-religious.
      Atheism > Oneness forum trolls

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by docphin View Post

        I know that it is an impossible task, but something inside me pushes me forward on this impossible task. At least you get it.
        n>Hilarious. Anyone who knows anything about the history of your movement knows what it is that, "something inside me" prompts you peeps. All anyone needs to do is study up on all the failed and dismal gnostic gangs that little history.

        Originally posted by docphin View Post

        I know that it is an impossible task...
        n>That is precisely what gnosticism is. The results are dismal failures. But the startup costs are minimal. All one needs to do is claim one has some secret thinginess... and there you go! Your own empire! Your own universe! Your own god(s)! Your own (thousands of imaginary ones) slaves licking your boots or slippers or toes or nose. etc.

        Originally posted by docphin View Post

        ... At least you get it.
        n>Shows your gullibility. Anyone sensible would have looked up the local history to see some results on that front. Maybe now you have a follower here? Maybe you've suckered someone? I already see all the praises... maybe wealth will follow? ha ha ha.

        .
        Mouser Larry Roy: "yippee ki yay"
        “... see the loonies in their cages… are they not witty… how much amusement they afford… ours is a human world, theirs is a bestial world… " Bedlam

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by djb View Post

          This Paul?

          15 Now I would remind you, brethren, in what terms I preached to you the gospel, which you received, in which you stand, 2 by which you are saved, if you hold it fast—unless you believed in vain.

          3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6 Then he appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. 8 Last of all, as to one untimely born [stillborn abortion], he [Christ] appeared also to me.
          What I'll set aside is your confused, delusional pantheism.
          You lack proper context my friend.

          First, there was a Jewish myth in the apostolic times that ten kings or prophets were assigned to our world. And according to the myth, three would be pulled up leaving just seven. Jesus was among the seven, presumably the fifth. The seven prophets correlate with the seven days of the creation myth, because heaven and earth will not be finished and the host will not be complete until they come (Genesis 2:1). They are heaven's timekeepers, in a sense, because the Christ or cosmos depends upon their appearance just as our earth depends upon the sun rising each day. Therefore, the three days that must occur before Christ is raised are not solar days but mythological days, "in accordance with the scriptures". Since Jesus came on the fifth day, following Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Moses, there remained two more days. In the Clementine Homilies, Peter claims to be among them, making him the sixth, leaving the "one to come". Therefore, according to scripture, there are three "days" from Jesus to the risen Christ when "the heavens and earth [or cosmos] are finished, and all the host of them."

          And on the seventh day God finished his work that he had done, and he rested on the seventh day from all his work that he had done. So God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it God rested from all his work that he had done in creation. (Genesis 2:1)

          One other point I can make about this particular narrative in Paul's letter to the Corinthians is that if you pay close attention it also supports the OP because Paul is saying that, those who preceded him in faith, namely, Peter, James, et al., perceived Christ or cosmos as a stillborn child or abortion. In other words, they perceived the single thing that "is all and in all" (aka, the cosmos or Christ) as lacking life when it began. It would take Christ or cosmos 13.8 billion years before it would bring life or consciousness to a dead world through the souls that it would produce.

          Thus the Gospels and Acts contain mythological tales about a solitary man named Jesus but the phenomenal events in his life are actually signs pointing us to the cosmological Christ "who is all, and in all". It is through allegorical interpretation of the myths that we understand the life of the Christ or cosmos that we are members of,--its beginning, its fall into materiality, its evolution to consciousness, its desire for good, and its future yet to come.
          Last edited by docphin; 12-11-18, 06:33 AM.
          We shall not injure God by remaining ignorant of Him, but shall deprive ourselves of His friendship.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by AV1611VET View Post

            I have a triad of examples: (the Challenger, Thalidomide, and the Pluto issue) that I like to bring up often as examples where people died, were disfigured, or disappointed by science's nearsightedness.
            And not one of them is an example of where people died. were disfigured, or disappointed by sciences nearsightedness.
            The Challenger. Any of over a dozen ships. Specify one.
            Thalidomide. A "wonderdrug" released without proper scientific testing, with disastrous results.
            The Pluto issue. A vague fantasy you have, that somehow involves either the planet, or the Disney dog... i'm not sure which.


            Next in line are examples such as the Hindenburg, the Florida footbridge, L'Aquila, Chernobyl, Three Mile Island, and other such disasters that I like to use to keep science balanced.
            So more things that are not what you want to imagine them to be.
            Not a single example of where people died. were disfigured, or disappointed by sciences nearsightedness.


            Otherwise, academians will put science up on such a high pedestal that someone might think she replaces God himself.
            And since academians cannot do this...
            You are fighting a phantom of your own mind.

            Oh, wait ... !
            For????
            When evil is powerful, good men are silenced.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by D Laurier View Post

              Applying science to christianity, and thereby growing christianity from its iron age roots, to become a modern religion... is the only way to save it.
              Alas, some would rather push it back into the bronze age.
              You have a task ahead of you.
              good luck
              n>How special. Now the atheists-or-whatever-leftovers are so deeply concerned about what they want their (REIMJCCC) revised-evolved-improved-modernized-Jesus, their revised-evolved-improved-modernized-Church, their revised-evolved-improved-modernized-Christian, their revised-evolved-improved-modernize-Christian-CARMite to look like. What an amazing cuddle-bear that REIMJCCC-thingy must feel like to those dear loving, caring atheist-whatevers. So touching to my tender heart. There might even be a wee teensy tear starting up in one eye maybe. They not only are concerned, but they boldly come out of the closet and say so publicly. How brave! Then they apply their biggest greatest brains to solve the danger and problem and offer solutions. Then they add their wish for "good luck!" That ought to do it. Atheists and that type shows such love, coming all this way to CARM, spending prodigious time and effort to evolve, improve, enhance and modernize the poor lost Jesus, Church, Christians, and CARM! I don't know if my heart can take all this love at Christmas! They act as if they actually have been converted and believe there is a God and that the Bible is divinely inspired and true! Atheists saving Jesus at Christmas! What a gift atheists give the world! An improved, evolved Jesus just in time for Christmas! Ship him out to all stores! Sell him at discounted prices! Wrap him up nicely! Do a big promotional thingy! Batteries included! With test tubes for the science part. There's an App for that!

              n>Happy now?
              Mouser Larry Roy: "yippee ki yay"
              “... see the loonies in their cages… are they not witty… how much amusement they afford… ours is a human world, theirs is a bestial world… " Bedlam

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by D Laurier
                Where is the rest of the post?
                You deliberately quotemined me for two fragments, widely separated . And you jammed them together to create the false impression that I said something I did not say.
                Your dishonesty is astonishing.
                Your wall of incomprehensible jibberish as reply, doesnt help you either.
                Happier? Gonna cry and pout?

                https://forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/se...33#post5721333
                Mouser Larry Roy: "yippee ki yay"
                “... see the loonies in their cages… are they not witty… how much amusement they afford… ours is a human world, theirs is a bestial world… " Bedlam

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by noemail001 View Post

                  n>How special. Now the atheists-or-whatever-leftovers are so deeply concerned about what they want their (REIMJCCC) revised-evolved-improved-modernized-Jesus, their revised-evolved-improved-modernized-Church, their revised-evolved-improved-modernized-Christian, their revised-evolved-improved-modernize-Christian-CARMite to look like. What an amazing cuddle-bear that REIMJCCC-thingy must feel like to those dear loving, caring atheist-whatevers. So touching to my tender heart. There might even be a wee teensy tear starting up in one eye maybe. They not only are concerned, but they boldly come out of the closet and say so publicly. How brave! Then they apply their biggest greatest brains to solve the danger and problem and offer solutions. Then they add their wish for "good luck!" That ought to do it. Atheists and that type shows such love, coming all this way to CARM, spending prodigious time and effort to evolve, improve, enhance and modernize the poor lost Jesus, Church, Christians, and CARM! I don't know if my heart can take all this love at Christmas! They act as if they actually have been converted and believe there is a God and that the Bible is divinely inspired and true! Atheists saving Jesus at Christmas! What a gift atheists give the world! An improved, evolved Jesus just in time for Christmas! Ship him out to all stores! Sell him at discounted prices! Wrap him up nicely! Do a big promotional thingy! Batteries included! With test tubes for the science part. There's an App for that!

                  n>Happy now?
                  Huh?
                  Wow.
                  I'm still trying to decipher this.
                  When evil is powerful, good men are silenced.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by noemail001 View Post

                    Happier? Gonna cry and pout?
                    Huh?
                    What are you prattling now?
                    Happier about what?
                    Why would I cry and pout?
                    Please use language

                    And your obsessive link posting....
                    When evil is powerful, good men are silenced.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by America View Post
                      This is an interesting essay.

                      What stands out for me is the similarity to pantheism (re. god <--> universe <--> nature). I'm not making any accusation along those lines; I'm just noting the analogy.

                      As an atheist, I'm happy to co-exist with theists who believe differently from me, and even if they believe things I disagree very strongly with. Where I take issue is when those (disagreeable) theistic beliefs are stated to others as objective truths. Believe the earth is 6000 years ago, but don't try telling me I should believe it as well (without reasonable justification).

                      I mention this only to say that while I don't necessarily agree with your OP, I don't really find much worth objecting to either - and especially not if it leads you and I in the same general direction. If Christ is the cosmos, and evolution nothing more than one expression of His will/thought/existence, then OK. If trying to understand the universe is essentially the same as trying to understand some aspect of God, then OK.

                      I think your idea will get more resistance from Christians than it will from the non-religious.
                      I appreciate your feedback. I wanted to add that I don’t really think of it as pantheism because although we are members of Christ or cosmos, Christ or cosmos belongs to God. In other words, we, as a single thing, belong to God. But I am not going to be dogmatic about it. It is a road that we are on to discover who we actually are and where we came from. If we travel far enough on that road then IMO there is God, the source of “all things” or Christ or cosmos.

                      and you are Christ's, and Christ is God's. (1 Corinthians 3:23)
                      We shall not injure God by remaining ignorant of Him, but shall deprive ourselves of His friendship.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by noemail001 View Post
                        Here you go, don't cry.

                        D Laurier View Post
                        Where is the rest of the post?
                        You deliberately quotemined me for two fragments, widely separated . And you jammed them together to create the false impression that I said something I did not say.
                        Your dishonesty is astonishing.
                        Your wall of incomprehensible jibberish as reply, doesnt help you either.
                        Happier? Gonna cry and pout?

                        https://forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/se...33#post5721333
                        Mouser Larry Roy: "yippee ki yay"
                        “... see the loonies in their cages… are they not witty… how much amusement they afford… ours is a human world, theirs is a bestial world… " Bedlam

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by docphin View Post
                          If we set aside the mythological Jesus in the gospels and Acts .
                          Prove its mythological
                          "darwin/nature is an ever-receding pocket of scientific ignorance"—me

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by ferengi View Post

                            Prove its mythological
                            Here is one example of the difference between truth and mythology, between Paul’s Christ and the “other Jesus”, that is, the Christ written mythologically in the Gospels and Acts.

                            Paul
                            I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. (1 Corinthians 15:50)

                            Luke
                            See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.” (Luke 24:39)


                            We shall not injure God by remaining ignorant of Him, but shall deprive ourselves of His friendship.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by docphin View Post
                              Here is one example of the difference between truth and mythology, between Paul’s Christ and the “other Jesus”, that is, the Christ written mythologically in the Gospels and Acts.

                              Paul
                              I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. (1 Corinthians 15:50)

                              Luke
                              See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.” (Luke 24:39)
                              Unsupported that Luke made up a mythological Christ.
                              "darwin/nature is an ever-receding pocket of scientific ignorance"—me

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by ferengi View Post

                                Unsupported that Luke made up a mythological Christ.
                                Suit yourself, but the rest of us know that flesh and blood neither walks through walls nor walk on water. The authors of the Gospels also knew it but wrote it for the sole purpose of pointing (as signs) to the Christ who “is all and in all.”

                                and these [signs] have been written that ye may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing ye may have life in his name.' (John 20:31)
                                We shall not injure God by remaining ignorant of Him, but shall deprive ourselves of His friendship.

                                Comment

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