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The Evolution of Christ

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  • docphin
    started a topic The Evolution of Christ

    The Evolution of Christ

    If we set aside the mythological Jesus in the gospels and Acts and strictly adhere to Paul’s Christ in his letters then it becomes apparent that Paul equates Christ to the cosmos for Paul says that Christ is “the sum of all things” (or the cosmos), and again, “Christ is all, and in all”. It follows then that evolution is a mechanism by which Christ produces us, because evolution is a mechanism by which our cosmos has produced us. Moreover, it goes with out saying that when Paul says that “all things are from and through him”, he could just as well have been speaking of the cosmos. Again, Paul discloses the mystery of “Christ in you” which is no different than saying, “the cosmos in you”. And what a great mystery that is! For no mind has conceived until now that humans are formed from stardust, yet somehow Paul perceived its essence two thousand years ago.

    If Christ be the sum of all things or the cosmos then the history of our cosmos would be the history of Christ. Christ would have been an extremely ordered, powerful thing long before our cosmos came to be. Christ would have suffered a perturbation, an expansion, a spreading out, and a tranfer from perfect order and energy into chaos and materiality. Christ then slowly but surely was rearranged by forces within our universe to produce first unicellular life on our planet. Christ (or cosmos) fed that life with energy from the sun, with heat from our planets molten core, and with nutrients from the solar system which catalyzed the evolution of life into complex organisms. Christ then selected from life on our planet one species capable of intelligent thought. Christ then selected from among those capable of intelligent thought some who would look out at the stars and seek our beginning and our purpose. What they discover is that we belong to a single thing that has a life of its own: a beginning, a fall into materiality, an evolution to consciousness, a desire for good, and a future yet to come. They discover that we are Christ or the cosmos for we are members of his one body or single thing that sums up the whole. But Christ is not finished just as our cosmos is not finished. Christ or cosmos is still evolving. Will Christ or cosmos someday return to as it was in the beginning: extremely ordered, and powerful? Will it remember us who belong to it? God only knows and if Christ or cosmos belongs to him then so should we.
    Last edited by docphin; 12-10-18, 12:16 AM.

  • docphin
    replied
    Originally posted by cisco qid View Post

    Sounds like the start of a whole new cult.
    Early Christianity started with Paul preaching the cosmic Christ described in his seven authentic letters (excluding letters to Timothy) which I already quoted. It was after Paul’s death that the canonical Gospels were written based on the cosmic Christ of Paul but describing Christ mythologically, as a solitary human on earth because that is what the Jews expected. The Gospel of Mark would have been the first Gospel written after the Pauline letters. Thus the mystical, cosmic Christ of Paul producing life (souls) in our cosmos and early Hellenistic Christianity was later confounded with the mythological solitary Christ on earth written for the Messianic Jews expecting an earthly Messiah.

    This explains the compromise in Jerusalem where Peter and Paul decided to preach to Jews and Gentiles, respectively. Paul’s mission was to teach the mystical cosmic Christ to the Gentiles whose minds were prepared by Hellenistic/Egyptian/Wisdom mysteries on Logos/Osiris/Sophia (wisdom) death and rebirth, that is, the death and resurrection of Paul’s cosmic Christ. On the other hand, Peter continued to preach the Christ as a mythological, supernatural solitary man on earth because the Messianic Jews could accept nothing less. Unfortunately, the latter mythological solitary human became accepted as historical fact and imposed on the Roman world by the Roman church and erroneously believed by orthodox christians today (e.g., Protestant Christians). This is why christian orthodoxy today cannot reconcile their beliefs with a known fact of our world, that is, evolution, because their religious opinions depend upon the literalization of the myths versus the knowledge of the cosmic Christ who returns all things (the cosmos) to true God and Father. The mechanism of evolution is a means in the plan to turn nonlife into life, ignorance into knowledge, bad into good, sin into righteousness, death into immortality. The cosmic Christ taught by Paul is reborn with life in those souls here on earth who love truth and believe that God is the source of being and power of existence and to whom all things (or Christ or cosmos) belong.
    Last edited by docphin; 02-15-19, 09:15 AM.

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  • cisco qid
    replied
    Originally posted by docphin View Post

    Your opinion is easily refuted by Paul’s letters. Did you not read the OP? Or do you cherry pick what you want to believe, despite all the evidence, like when you reject the overwhelming evidence for evolution?

    Despite your erroneous opinion nonbelievers are also considered in Christ, whether they know it or not, because they are members of “all things” or our world (“kosmos”), for Paul teaches that,

    "All things are summed up in Christ" (Eph. i. 10);

    "Of him, through him, and unto him, are all things" (Rom. xi. 36);

    "In him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily" (Col. ii. 9), indicating that everything that exists or will exist (from God) culminates in the single body of Christ;

    ””Christ is all, and in all”” (Colossians iii. 11); and

    ”to reach all the riches of full assurance of understanding and the knowledge of God's mystery, which is Christ, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.” (Colossians ii. 2)

    you fail to understand Paul because your mind has been corrupted through the literalization of myths. Where truth should rest comfortably in your mind, according to right reason, instead, error, fantasy, and myth” hold rule of your thoughts, like “gangrene” eating away healthy tissue. You need a doctor who can heal you with the medicine of truth and right reason.
    Sounds like the start of a whole new cult.

    Leave a comment:


  • rook
    replied
    Originally posted by docphin View Post

    Despite your erroneous opinion nonbelievers are also considered in Christ, whether they know it or not, because they are members of “all things” or our world (“kosmos”), for Paul teaches that,
    Your Gnosticism leaves you in error again, amigo. Your religious dogma is even more deficient that your poor grasp of science and that's saying a lot.

    Leave a comment:


  • docphin
    replied
    Originally posted by cisco qid View Post

    "Christ in you" is in reference to believers and not mankind in general. Although He is the Creator of all, He resides in a special way in His church or rather the fellowship of believers.
    Your opinion is easily refuted by Paul’s letters. Did you not read the OP? Or do you cherry pick what you want to believe, despite all the evidence, like when you reject the overwhelming evidence for evolution?

    Despite your erroneous opinion nonbelievers are also considered in Christ, whether they know it or not, because they are members of “all things” or our world (“kosmos”), for Paul teaches that,

    "All things are summed up in Christ" (Eph. i. 10);

    "Of him, through him, and unto him, are all things" (Rom. xi. 36);

    "In him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily" (Col. ii. 9), indicating that everything that exists or will exist (from God) culminates in the single body of Christ;

    ””Christ is all, and in all”” (Colossians iii. 11); and

    ”to reach all the riches of full assurance of understanding and the knowledge of God's mystery, which is Christ, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.” (Colossians ii. 2)

    you fail to understand Paul because your mind has been corrupted through the literalization of myths. Where truth should rest comfortably in your mind, according to right reason, instead, error, fantasy, and myth” hold rule of your thoughts, like “gangrene” eating away healthy tissue. You need a doctor who can heal you with the medicine of truth and right reason.
    Last edited by docphin; 02-12-19, 09:25 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • cisco qid
    replied
    Originally posted by docphin View Post
    If we set aside the mythological Jesus in the gospels and Acts and strictly adhere to Paul’s Christ in his letters then it becomes apparent that Paul equates Christ to the cosmos for Paul says that Christ is “the sum of all things” (or the cosmos), and again, “Christ is all, and in all”. It follows then that evolution is a mechanism by which Christ produces us, because evolution is a mechanism by which our cosmos has produced us. Moreover, it goes with out saying that when Paul says that “all things are from and through him”, he could just as well have been speaking of the cosmos. Again, Paul discloses the mystery of “Christ in you” which is no different than saying, “the cosmos in you”. And what a great mystery that is! For no mind has conceived until now that humans are formed from stardust, yet somehow Paul perceived its essence two thousand years ago.

    If Christ be the sum of all things or the cosmos then the history of our cosmos would be the history of Christ. Christ would have been an extremely ordered, powerful thing long before our cosmos came to be. Christ would have suffered a perturbation, an expansion, a spreading out, and a tranfer from perfect order and energy into chaos and materiality. Christ then slowly but surely was rearranged by forces within our universe to produce first unicellular life on our planet. Christ (or cosmos) fed that life with energy from the sun, with heat from our planets molten core, and with nutrients from the solar system which catalyzed the evolution of life into complex organisms. Christ then selected from life on our planet one species capable of intelligent thought. Christ then selected from among those capable of intelligent thought some who would look out at the stars and seek our beginning and our purpose. What they discover is that we belong to a single thing that has a life of its own: a beginning, a fall into materiality, an evolution to consciousness, a desire for good, and a future yet to come. They discover that we are Christ or the cosmos for we are members of his one body or single thing that sums up the whole. But Christ is not finished just as our cosmos is not finished. Christ or cosmos is still evolving. Will Christ or cosmos someday return to as it was in the beginning: extremely ordered, and powerful? Will it remember us who belong to it? God only knows and if Christ or cosmos belongs to him then so should we.
    "Christ in you" is in reference to believers and not mankind in general. Although He is the Creator of all, He resides in a special way in His church or rather the fellowship of believers.

    Leave a comment:


  • Nouveau
    replied
    Originally posted by djb View Post
    Originally posted by America View Post
    I find this idea intriguing...

    If Jesus was fully human, humans don't have other forms - and - if Jesus had other forms, he wasn't fully human.
    Jesus was fully human, but he wasn't only human. He was human+.

    Also, we Christians do believe that we will have another form when our time in our earthly bodies is over.




    I think that the first bolded statement is correct, and the second is incorrect.
    Genesis 3 is first mention of dust to dust.

    Leave a comment:


  • docphin
    replied
    Originally posted by docphin View Post
    Paul does not accept the mythological stories of the solitary man in the Gospels (“the other Jesus”) as historical fact, rather he sees them as rudimentary principles for new converts unable to grasp the transcendent Christ. Where you fear to walk and grow in spiritual knowledge (by holding on to earthly myths as fact), Paul exhorts his followers to move beyond them to a true understanding of the transcendent Christ, the Christ in you, the Christ who is all things and in all things.

    For example, Paul sees the earthly resurrection of a solitary man as an elementary principle which we should “leave” behind because its only purpose as a mythological tale was to point us to a transcendent truth about the true Christ, the true substance of our world or cosmos. Thus, Paul expects us to move beyond earthly myths to the sublime meaning of our cosmos and where we fit in it, that is, in Christ, in whom we fit as as a member of his single body. Simply, his body (our material world or “kosmos”) has produced billions of souls belonging to one thing that is raising itself from its own grave, because our world or cosmos began as a lifeless corpse (1); now, our world or cosmos or Christ has life; and in the future it will have immortality. Our present condition is temporary for Christ or cosmos is ascending bodily from its “grave””. Thus, the true resurrection is not of earthly solitary human bodies but of the Christ or cosmos, “according to scripture” (i.e., the spiritual meaning of scripture versus its literal meaning).

    “Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation

    of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,
    and of instruction about washings,
    the laying on of hands,
    the resurrection of the dead, and
    eternal judgment.” (Hebrews 6:1)
    ————-

    1)I will repeat how the Christ appeared to Paul and the apostles as a lifeless abortion or stillborn fetus. The literalists (Christian orthodoxy) are clueless to what Paul means so they have to add context and interpolate his words to make it fit their erroneous interpretation.
    Addendum
    Here is another example where Paul repudiates the literalizarion of the myths in scripture and warns his students that that the myths are like gangrene rotting the healthy tissue.

    In this example, Paul repudiiates the myth of the solitary man Jesus’ resurrection from the grave being taught by the protoorthodox. Apparently, the literalizers of the myths, namely, Hymenaeus and Philetus, were teaching the myth of the Jesus’ resurrection as historical fact rather than as a myth with an underlying principle pointing to the true substance, that is, the true christ or cosmos (our world), which is all things, and in all things, and in you.

    “(2 Timothy 2:16) But avoid irreverent babble, for it will lead people into more and more ungodliness, and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have swerved from the truth, saying that the resurection has already happened..”

    Paul adds that when the gangrene (the literalization of the myths) sets in then it will corrupt all doctrines leaving those who believe them in opposition to the truth, as we now see happening with the truth of evolution!

    “(2 Timothy 4:3). For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.
    Last edited by docphin; 02-08-19, 08:11 AM.

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  • docphin
    replied
    Originally posted by djb View Post

    Yet Paul reiterates the Gospel message (that you want to dismiss) in Corinthians 15:
    15 Now I would remind you, brethren, in what terms I preached to you the gospel, which you received, in which you stand, 2 by which you are saved, if you hold it fast—unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures,
    According to your own source (Paul), Jesus was not only just a man, he was crucified, died and was resurrected; through which a believer can receive salvation. Paul doesn't see that as mythological, he sees it as fact.
    Paul does not accept the mythological stories of the solitary man in the Gospels (“the other Jesus”) as historical fact, rather he sees them as rudimentary principles for new converts unable to grasp the transcendent Christ. Where you fear to walk and grow in spiritual knowledge (by holding on to earthly myths as fact), Paul exhorts his followers to move beyond them to a true understanding of the transcendent Christ, the Christ in you, the Christ who is all things and in all things.

    For example, Paul sees the earthly resurrection of a solitary man as an elementary principle which we should “leave” behind because its only purpose as a mythological tale was to point us to a transcendent truth about the true Christ, the true substance of our world or cosmos. Thus, Paul expects us to move beyond earthly myths to the sublime meaning of our cosmos and where we fit in it, that is, in Christ, in whom we fit as as a member of his single body. Simply, his body (our material world or “kosmos”) has produced billions of souls belonging to one thing that is raising itself from its own grave, because our world or cosmos began as a lifeless corpse (1); now, our world or cosmos or Christ has life; and in the future it will have immortality. Our present condition is temporary for Christ or cosmos is ascending bodily from its “grave””. Thus, the true resurrection is not of earthly solitary human bodies but of the Christ or cosmos, “according to scripture” (i.e., the spiritual meaning of scripture versus its literal meaning).

    “Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation

    of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,
    and of instruction about washings,
    the laying on of hands,
    the resurrection of the dead, and
    eternal judgment.” (Hebrews 6:1)
    ————-

    1)I will repeat how the Christ appeared to Paul and the apostles as a lifeless abortion or stillborn fetus. The literalists (Christian orthodoxy) are clueless to what Paul means so they have to add context and interpolate his words to make it fit their erroneous interpretation.

    Originally posted by docphin View Post

    The word used by Paul that represents Christ or cosmos is the same as a stillborn child or aborted fetus. Stillborn births or aborted fetuses come early (i.e., as untimely births), whereas Paul clearly came later than the other apostles. Thus he is neither talking about himself nor a mythological, solitary man on earth, but the Christ or cosmos “who is all, and in all.” It was our cosmos that began without life as a stillborn child or abortion—a corpse. And it is the work of Christ or cosmos to produce souls that give life to our cosmos.

    1 Corinthians 15:8
    (DBT): and last of all, as to an abortion (“ektromati”), he [Christ] appeared to me [Paul] also.

    ektróma: untimely birth, miscarriage
    Original Word: ἔκτρωμα, ατος, τό
    Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
    Transliteration: ektróma
    Phonetic Spelling: (ek'-tro-mah)
    Definition: untimely birth, miscarriage
    Usage: (strictly: a lifeless abortion) an untimely birth.
    Last edited by docphin; 02-05-19, 10:12 AM.

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  • AV1611VET
    replied
    Originally posted by America View Post
    ... and you can have the last word on the subject.
    God bless America!

    Leave a comment:


  • America
    replied
    Originally posted by djb View Post
    Jesus was fully human, but he wasn't only human. He was human+.
    Then he wasn't fully human; a human is only human.

    Look, I understand that you're not going to say anything that will change my mind, and that I can't say anything to change yours. The Christian position on this issue is unreasonable and illogical, and Christians are fine with that. Let's just leave it at that, and you can have the last word on the subject.
    Last edited by America; 12-31-18, 01:55 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • djb
    replied
    [QUOTE=America;n5735740]
    I find this idea intriguing...

    If Jesus was fully human, humans don't have other forms - and - if Jesus had other forms, he wasn't fully human. [QUOTE]

    Jesus was fully human, but he wasn't only human. He was human+.

    Also, we Christians do believe that we will have another form when our time in our earthly bodies is over.

    Originally posted by America View Post
    Also, trinity doctrine portrays Jesus as being separate-from-yet-intertwined-with the Father and the Holy Spirit. Would Jesus' other form be one of these? Christians routinely talk about Jesus being in heaven WITH God, so if God is nothing more than one of Jesus' other forms - how could they be said to be WITH each other?

    I think that the first bolded statement is correct, and the second is incorrect.

    Leave a comment:


  • rook
    replied
    Originally posted by docphin View Post

    For a atheist-scientist, humans evolved from stardust into complex life, and stars came from gas and dust, and hydrogen gas came fromthe big bang,—it is all connected. For the theist-scientist, it is also all connected, but for an ultimate goal predetermined by the power that produced it all. Nevertheless, the facts remain the same for all.
    But you are simply presenting magical Darwinian woo here, amigo. Where is your science?

    Leave a comment:


  • djb
    replied
    Originally posted by docphin View Post

    Jesus could very well have been a real human just as Paul was a real human, but what is written about the solitary man Jesus in the Gospels is mythological for the sole purpose of pointing to higher truths about our origins from a cosmological perspective. The mythological events in the solitary man’s life represent events from a much larger perspective than mere Palestine on earth.

    Think about it. If Christ is cosmos then Christ is making the cosmos new by the souls it produces, to include Jesus’ soul. Simply, Christ is making a “new creation” or cosmos because we are in It giving it life or consciousness. We are arguably the highest consciousness produced from it. Our universe began without life—as a corpse. Through evolutionary mechanusms it now has life, but the work of Christ is not complete, for Christ or cosmos is still evolving. There is a future yet to come.

    Thus, Paul has the expanded awareness when he writes of Christ or cosmos “through whom and in whom we exist”.
    Don't forget that your OP starts this way:

    Originally posted by docphin View Post
    "If we set aside the mythological Jesus in the gospels and Acts and strictly adhere to Paul’s Christ in his letters".
    Yet Paul reiterates the Gospel message (that you want to dismiss) in Corinthians 15:
    15 Now I would remind you, brethren, in what terms I preached to you the gospel, which you received, in which you stand, 2 by which you are saved, if you hold it fast—unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures,
    According to your own source (Paul), Jesus was not only just a man, he was crucified, died and was resurrected; through which a believer can receive salvation. Paul doesn't see that as mythological, he sees it as fact.

    No amount of pantheistic gnosticism can change that.

    Leave a comment:


  • D Laurier
    replied
    Originally posted by AV1611VET View Post

    Because reality changed?
    Close.
    Our understanding of reality, is what changed.
    For over a century, there was no clear definition of what a planet was. Only a vague notion of a large spherical body orbiting a star.
    When astronomers finally sat down and clearly defined the word "Planet", they noticed that Pluto did not quite fit the definition.
    Rather than resort to the dishonest trick of creating exceptions, they simply accepted the fact that Pluto was not a planet.
    Pluto is another type of object, called a Dwarf Planet.
    It also has more in common with comets than with small planets.
    I suspect, based on the available evidence, that it started as a very large comet that fell into into its present orbit after taking shape further out.

    Leave a comment:

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