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As most of you are aware, we had a crash to forums and were down for over two days a while back. We did have to do an upgrade to the vbulletin software to fix the forums and that has created changes, VB no longer provide the hybrid or threaded forums. There are some issues/changes to the forums we are not able to fix or change. Also note the link address change, please let friends and posters know of the changed link to the forums. For now this is the only link available, https://forums.carm.org/vb5/ but if clicking on forum on carm.org homepage it will now send you to this link. (edited to add https: now working.

Again, we are working through some of the posting and viewing issues to learn how to post with the changes, you will have to check and test the different features, icons that have changed. You may also want to go to profile settings,since many of the notifications, information in profile, also to update/edit your avatar by clicking on avatar space, pull down arrow next to login for user settings.

Edit to add "How to read forums, to make it easier."
Pull down arrow next to login name upper right select profile, or user settings when page opens to profile,select link in tab that says Account. Then select/choose options, go down to Conversation Detail Options, Select Display mode Posts, NOT Activity, that selection of Posts will make the pages of discussions go to last post on last page rather than out of order that happens if you choose activity threads. Then be sure to go to bottom and select SAVE Changes in your profile options. You can then follow discussions by going through the pages, to the last page having latest responses. Then click on the other links Privacy, Notifications, to select viewing options,the forums get easier if you open all the tabs or links in your profile, user settings and select options. To join Super Member, pull down arrow next to login name, select User Settings and then click on tab/link at top that says Subscriptions.

Thank you for your patience and God Bless.

Diane S
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  • CrowCross
    started a topic How?

    How?

    Mutuations are happening all the time in replicating cells. This is proven by genetic analysis of multicellular life and by cell cultures. It is proven that small changes may lead to advantages, advantages lead to increased survivability or increased fertility, more small changes equal more advantages, and so on, over millions of years. Not all mutations give advantages, many are bad. You may have a replicating cell mutate into a cancerous cell that wipes out your liver. If a beneficial mutation happens to a germinal cell then it is passed on to subsequent progeny which then undergo more mutations. Therefore, mutations are additive. Over millions of years it adds up for those living things that survive and reproduce. All of this is mapped out in DNA, supported by evidence from geology, and study of living things.
    True, mutuations are happening all the time in replicating cells. I agree.

    But your problem is you have fallen back onto the coloring book version.

    OK, lets say for the sake of the argument a mutation that enhances a particular trait such that a benefit to an organism occurs. Lets start there.

    What are the chances that a second beneficial mutation will occur in the organisms progeny that will enhance the same trait in a beneficial way? You know, add to the first mutation.

    Now we all know it would require a lot of beneficial mutations for a trait to develop. One or two trait changes won't turn a fin into a leg...or evolve the echo-location of a dolphin.

    So, the evos tell me beneficial mutations are rare. Extremely rare. I also understand the genome of an organism are quite large. Humans have something like 2.5 billion 3 billion base pairs.

    Here's where you evos typically go coloring book on us creationist...you acted as if it's easy. Happens all the time when you said "If a beneficial mutation happens to a germinal cell then it is passed on to subsequent progeny which then undergo more mutations. Therefore, mutations are additive." More mutations...just like that...occurring in just the right place of billions of possible places for a BENEFICIAL mutation occur and enhance the developing trait.

    But heck, thrown in deep time and your problem is solved. Right. You used over millions of years in your coloring book description. Can you show how this is possible? Certainly your link didn't show how it is possible.

    When you look deeper you'll discover more problems. For instance the odds of a harmful mutation or even a neutral mutation occuring to a trait in the organisms progeny will effect the trait long before a a second mutation occurs which has the ability to enhance the trait so that it leads to increased survivability or increased fertility...stopping or destroying the trait.

    Now just imagine what it would take to evolve a land animal into a dolphin....all the required changes to all the systems and organs..appendages......beating the odds over and over again.

    Some traits are required to work in harmony with another trait...now you need two beneficial mutations to occur in just the right place of the DNA at just the right time.

    Imagine the changes required to change a particular organism into a "new" organism that is now classified as a different which is now classified as a different genus, family or order.

    So docphin, can you show us how evolutionism works? Can you show how mutations add up?

    There's more but you first have to get over these hurdles.







  • D Laurier
    replied
    Originally posted by barchan View Post
    Any YEC worth his salt doesn't have to read our posts. He knows what they say ahead of time.

    ABE: Saves a lot of time that way.
    It appears that way.

    Leave a comment:


  • barchan
    replied
    Originally posted by D Laurier View Post
    Nope.
    He is not saying any such thing.
    read the words as posted
    Any YEC worth his salt doesn't have to read our posts. He knows what they say ahead of time.

    ABE: Saves a lot of time that way.

    Leave a comment:


  • D Laurier
    replied
    Originally posted by marke View Post

    You are saying a paper approved by a mob of evolutionists who absolutely reject any scientific study which draws questionable evolution assumptions into question is the only paper worthy of being described as unbiased and scientific?
    Nope.
    He is not saying any such thing.
    read the words as posted

    Leave a comment:


  • marke
    replied
    Originally posted by Spacemonkey View Post
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peer_review#Scholarly

    "Peer review requires a community of experts in a given (and often narrowly defined) field, who are qualified and able to perform reasonably impartial review."

    A creationist's paper, approved by other creationists and published in a creationist journal, is not an impartial review.
    You are saying a paper approved by a mob of evolutionists who absolutely reject any scientific study which draws questionable evolution assumptions into question is the only paper worthy of being described as unbiased and scientific?

    Leave a comment:


  • lightbeamrider
    replied
    Originally posted by Spacemonkey View Post
    He's a creationist and he's offering an opinion.
    As opposed to the atheist offering his opinion?
    If you'd like to present any established science
    Established science is not a science standard. Science is not a democracy. If established was the standard then flat earth would still be the model.



    you think supports his opinion then by all meens go ahead.
    Your belief in unobserved dino to birds transformations involving increases in functional bio code absent an intelligent designer is nothing more than guesses based on an atheistic big picture evolutionary model which does not merit the status of theory in the scientific sense. Increases in massive amounts of functional instructional information via intelligence can be independently demonstrated over and over while your model which excludes intelligent intervention in codes cannot be independently demonstrated anywhere. If it is code then its source is intelligence and we are not talking about linear codes but codes much more complicated and sophisticated.

    ''The bottom line is this: the genome’s set of instructions is not a simple, static, linear array of letters – but is dynamic, self-regulating, and multi-dimensional. There is no human information system that can even begin to compare to it. The genome’s highest levels of complexity and interaction are probably beyond the reach of our understanding, yet we can at least acknowledge that these higher levels of information exist. While the linear information within the human genome is extremely impressive, the non-linear information must obviously be much greater. Given the unsurpassed complexity of life, this has to be true.''

    Sanford, John. Genetic Entropy . FMS Publications. Kindle Edition.


    Last edited by lightbeamrider; 02-15-19, 09:04 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Spacemonkey
    replied
    Originally posted by rook View Post
    You obviously do not understand what 'peer-reviewed' means, but that is understandable.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peer_review#Scholarly

    "Peer review requires a community of experts in a given (and often narrowly defined) field, who are qualified and able to perform reasonably impartial review."

    A creationist's paper, approved by other creationists and published in a creationist journal, is not an impartial review.

    Leave a comment:


  • rook
    replied
    Originally posted by Spacemonkey View Post

    Edit: The study you refer to is not peer-reviewed. It is published by an in-house creationist journal, run and paid for by other creationists.
    You obviously do not understand what 'peer-reviewed' means, but that is understandable.

    Leave a comment:


  • Spacemonkey
    replied
    Originally posted by rook View Post
    Are you qualified to understand the science?
    Douglas Axe demonstrated the inability of Darwinian evolution to produce multi-mutation features in a 2010 peer-reviewed study. Axe calculated that when a “multi-mutation feature” requires more than six mutations before giving any benefit, it is unlikely to arise even in the whole history of the Earth. He provided empirical backing for this conclusion from experimental research he earlier published in the Journal of Molecular Biology, finding that only one in 1074 amino-acid sequences yields functional protein folds. That implies that protein folds in general are multi-mutation features, requiring many amino acids to be fixed before the assembly provides any functional advantage...

    https://evolutionnews.org/2012/06/can_random_muta/
    Over your head?
    If you can link to the actual paper - i.e. the actual science instead of biased creationist websites - then that is something we could discuss.

    It doesn't seem relevant to my above quoted post from the first page though, which no-one seems willing to address.

    Edit: The study you refer to is not peer-reviewed. It is published by an in-house creationist journal, run and paid for by other creationists.
    Last edited by Spacemonkey; 02-14-19, 06:51 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • rook
    replied
    Originally posted by Spacemonkey View Post
    If you'd like to present any established science you think supports his opinion then by all means go ahead.
    Are you qualified to understand the science?
    Douglas Axe demonstrated the inability of Darwinian evolution to produce multi-mutation features in a 2010 peer-reviewed study. Axe calculated that when a “multi-mutation feature” requires more than six mutations before giving any benefit, it is unlikely to arise even in the whole history of the Earth. He provided empirical backing for this conclusion from experimental research he earlier published in the Journal of Molecular Biology, finding that only one in 1074 amino-acid sequences yields functional protein folds. That implies that protein folds in general are multi-mutation features, requiring many amino acids to be fixed before the assembly provides any functional advantage...

    https://evolutionnews.org/2012/06/can_random_muta/
    Over your head?


    Leave a comment:


  • Spacemonkey
    replied
    Originally posted by rook View Post
    You're confused. Carter is a PhD biologist, you are a pontificating non-scientist. Carter is basing his opinion on established science. What do you think your rambling shtick was accomplishing or are you note sure?
    He's a creationist and he's offering an opinion. If you'd like to present any established science you think supports his opinion then by all means go ahead.

    Leave a comment:


  • rook
    replied
    Originally posted by Spacemonkey View Post
    You offer a creationist presenting an opinion, not a scientist presenting facts.
    You're confused. Carter is a PhD biologist, you are a pontificating non-scientist. Carter is basing his opinion on established science. What do you think your rambling shtick was accomplishing or are you note sure?

    Leave a comment:


  • Spacemonkey
    replied
    Originally posted by rook View Post
    Yawn. Not the type of mutations required for evolution to advance, oops. Your rambling pontification really doesn't mean much. Are you a scientist?
    The genome is not what evolution expected. The examples of mutations we have are not of the types required for evolution to advance. Evolution has to explain how the four-dimensional genome, with multiple overlapping codes and chock full of meta-information, came about. Can a mutation create new information? Perhaps, but only in the most limited sense. Can it create the kind of information needed to produce a genome? Absolutely not!

    -----Dr Robert Carter, PhD in Marine Biology
    You offer a creationist presenting an opinion, not a scientist presenting facts.

    Leave a comment:


  • rook
    replied
    Originally posted by Spacemonkey View Post
    Mutations are happening all the time, all over the genome
    Yawn. Not the type of mutations required for evolution to advance, oops. Your rambling pontification really doesn't mean much. Are you a scientist?
    The genome is not what evolution expected. The examples of mutations we have are not of the types required for evolution to advance. Evolution has to explain how the four-dimensional genome, with multiple overlapping codes and chock full of meta-information, came about. Can a mutation create new information? Perhaps, but only in the most limited sense. Can it create the kind of information needed to produce a genome? Absolutely not!

    -----Dr Robert Carter, PhD in Marine Biology

    Leave a comment:


  • Spacemonkey
    replied
    Originally posted by Spacemonkey View Post
    Firstly, a beneficial trait will be selected for, eventually becoming fixed cross the population. So the odds of the second beneficial mutation (for the same trait) occurring in an individual possessing the first mutation increases and eventually becomes a certainty over time. Secondly, the second mutation might occur in an individual lacking the first, and yet the two may be combined as the two mutations each spread across the population. The first individual to inherit both beneficial mutations (i.e. one from each parent) will then have an advantage over all other individuals (having one, the other, or neither mutation).

    It is also not the case that an organism with the first mutation will have only one offspring, who in turn will have only one offspring, etc. so that if any deleterious mutation occurs before the next beneficial one (affecting the same trait) that the progress from the first mutation will be lost. Rather, the individual with the beneficial mutation can have a great many descendants, multiplying exponentially, such that any later negative mutations will simply kill off those affected individuals, without killing the entire sub-population carrying the first beneficial trait. That way many carriers of the first mutation remain in play to receive a second beneficial mutation whenever it eventually occurs.

    Individuals also don't have to wait around hoping for the second mutation to hit the exact right spot. Mutations are happening all the time, all over the genome. Wherever they occur, they will be selected for if beneficial and selected against if deleterious. Nothing prevents a random mutation from eventually affecting the same trait as the first, so when it does happen it will be selected for and added to the first, given that the first has already been selected for and has therefore propagated throughout the population.
    Still no attempt made to address this post.

    Leave a comment:

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