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Origen: "God planted paradise" and "the Devil took Jesus to a mountain" are MYTHS!

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  • Origen: "God planted paradise" and "the Devil took Jesus to a mountain" are MYTHS!

    Origen was an early church Father of the second century, is considered among the greatest theologians and he explicitly condemned those who took scriptures literally, explicitly, condemning those who took the creation myth literally and the stories of Jesus in the Gospels.

    It is a clear refutation of religious fundamentalism (literalization of the myths) which has corrupted the doctrines of the early church and now denies a known fact of our world, that is, evolution!

    Who is Origen?

    Origen of Alexandria[a] (c. 184 – c. 253),[3] also known as Origen Adamantius,[b] was an early Christian scholar, ascetic,[6] and theologian who was born and spent the first half of his career in Alexandria. He was a prolific writer who wrote roughly 2,000 treatises in multiple branches of theology, including textual criticism, biblical exegesis and biblical hermeneutics, homiletics, and spirituality. He was one of the most influential figures in early Christian theology, apologetics, and asceticism.[6][7] He has been described as "the greatest genius the early church ever produced". (Wikipedia)

    What does Origen say about the creation story and the Gospels?--that they are obviously fake stories containing a hidden meaning?

    How does he know? Because the literal meaning is absurd and contradictory. Moreover, he asserts that it is written absurdly in order to prevent anyone from taking a literal meaning!

    The following quote is from Origen, On First Principles, 4.2.9. in "Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 4"

    "But since, if the usefulness of the legislation, and the sequence and beauty of the history, were universally evident of itself, we should not believe that any other thing could be understood in the Scriptures save what was obvious,

    the word of God has arranged that certain
    stumbling-blocks, as it were, and
    offences, and
    impossibilities,
    should be introduced into the midst of the law and the history,

    in order that we may not, through being drawn away in all directions by the merely attractive nature of the language, either altogether fall away from the (true) doctrines, as learning nothing worthy of God, or, by not departing from the letter, come to the knowledge of nothing more divine.

    And this also we must know, that the principal aim being to announce the “spiritual” connection in those things that are done, and that ought to be done, where the Word found that things done according to the history could be adapted to these mystical senses, He made use of them, concealing from the multitude the deeper meaning;

    but where, in the narrative of the development of super-sensual things, 2899 there did not follow the performance of those certain events, which was already indicated by the mystical meaning,

    the Scripture interwove in the history (the account of) some event that did not take place,
    sometimes what could not have happened;
    sometimes what could, but did not. And
    sometimes a few words are interpolated which are not true in their literal acceptation, 2900 and
    sometimes a larger number.

    And a similar practice also is to be noticed with regard to the legislation, in which is often to be found what is useful in itself, and appropriate to the times of the legislation; and sometimes also what does not appear to be of utility;

    and at other times impossibilities are recorded for the sake of the more skilful and inquisitive,
    in order that they may give themselves to the toil of investigating what is written,
    and thus attain to a becoming conviction of the manner in which a meaning worthy of God must be sought out in such subjects.

    It was not only, however, with the (Scriptures composed) before the advent (of Christ) that the Spirit thus dealt; but as being the same Spirit, and (proceeding) from the one God, He did the same thing both with the evangelists and the apostles,—as

    even these [the Gospels] do not contain throughout a pure history of events, which are interwoven indeed according to the letter,
    but which did not actually occur. 2901


    (ON CREATION MYTH)

    Nor even do the law and the commandments wholly convey what is agreeable to reason. For who that has understanding will suppose that the first, and second, and third day, and the evening and the morning, existed without a sun, and moon, and stars? and that the first day was, as it were, also without a sky?

    And who is so foolish as to suppose that God, after the manner of a husbandman, planted a paradise in Eden, towards the east, and placed in it a tree of life, visible and palpable, so that one tasting of the fruit by the bodily teeth obtained life?

    and again, that one was a partaker of good and evil by masticating what was taken from the tree? And if God is said to walk in the paradise in the evening, and Adam to hide himself under a tree, I do not suppose that anyone doubts that these things figuratively indicate certain mysteries, the history having taken place in appearance, and not literally. 2902

    Cain also, when going forth from the presence of God, certainly appears to thoughtful men as likely to lead the reader to inquire what is the presence of God, and what is the meaning of going out from Him. And what need is there to say more, since those who are not altogether blind can collect countless instances of a similar kind recorded as having occurred, but which did not literally2903 take place?

    (ON GOSPELS)

    Nay, the Gospels themselves are filled with the same kind of narratives; e.g., the devil leading Jesus up into a high mountain, in order to show him from thence the kingdoms of the whole world, and the glory of them.

    For who is there among those who do not read such accounts carelessly, that would not condemn those (literalists) who think that with the eye of the body—which requires a lofty height in order that the parts lying (immediately) under and adjacent may be seen—the kingdoms of the Persians, and Scythians, and Indians, and Parthians, were beheld, and the manner in which their princes are glorified among men?

    And the attentive reader may notice in the Gospels innumerable other passages like these, so that he will be convinced that in the histories that are literally recorded, circumstances that did not occur are inserted."
    Last edited by docphin; 02-16-19, 11:23 PM.
    We shall not injure God by remaining ignorant of Him, but shall deprive ourselves of His friendship.

  • #2
    [QUOTE=docphin;n5828343]Origen was an early church Father of the second century, is considered among the greatest theologians and he explicitly condemned those who took scriptures literally, explicitly, condemning those who took the creation myth literally and the stories of Jesus in the Gospels.[/quote}

    Interpretation: Origin was a HERETIC, and a FALSE TEACHER, who taught SATANIC LIES in the church. Shows you how QUICKLY the enemy moved in after the Apostles died, the same as you're been trying to do here for years.

    Comment


    • #3
      [QUOTE=Bob Carabbio;n5828382]
      Originally posted by docphin View Post
      Origen was an early church Father of the second century, is considered among the greatest theologians and he explicitly condemned those who took scriptures literally, explicitly, condemning those who took the creation myth literally and the stories of Jesus in the Gospels.[/quote}

      Interpretation: Origin was a HERETIC, and a FALSE TEACHER, who taught SATANIC LIES in the church. Shows you how QUICKLY the enemy moved in after the Apostles died, the same as you're been trying to do here for years.
      But either way, they paved paradise put up a parking lot.

      ... always look on the bright side of life - Idle Cleese

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by juglans1 View Post
        But either way, they paved paradise put up a parking lot.
        THE BIG YELLOW TAXI!!! not my kind of music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfJv...DMMjfJvjJlU0pM

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Bob Carabbio View Post
          Originally posted by docphin View Post
          Origen was an early church Father of the second century, is considered among the greatest theologians and he explicitly condemned those who took scriptures literally, explicitly, condemning those who took the creation myth literally and the stories of Jesus in the Gospels.
          Interpretation: Origin was a HERETIC, and a FALSE TEACHER, who taught SATANIC LIES in the church. Shows you how QUICKLY the enemy moved in after the Apostles died, the same as you're been trying to do here for years.
          I just follow the evidence, Bob. There is no independent Satan teaching anyone anything, just old men holding on to their myths.
          We shall not injure God by remaining ignorant of Him, but shall deprive ourselves of His friendship.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by docphin View Post
            Origen was an early church Father of the second century, is considered among the greatest theologians and he explicitly condemned those who took scriptures literally, explicitly, condemning those who took the creation myth literally and the stories of Jesus in the Gospels.

            It is a clear refutation of religious fundamentalism (literalization of the myths) which has corrupted the doctrines of the early church and now denies a known fact of our world, that is, evolution!

            Who is Origen?

            Origen of Alexandria[a] (c. 184 – c. 253),[3] also known as Origen Adamantius,[b] was an early Christian scholar, ascetic,[6] and theologian who was born and spent the first half of his career in Alexandria. He was a prolific writer who wrote roughly 2,000 treatises in multiple branches of theology, including textual criticism, biblical exegesis and biblical hermeneutics, homiletics, and spirituality. He was one of the most influential figures in early Christian theology, apologetics, and asceticism.[6][7] He has been described as "the greatest genius the early church ever produced". (Wikipedia)

            What does Origen say about the creation story and the Gospels?--that they are obviously fake stories containing a hidden meaning?

            How does he know? Because the literal meaning is absurd and contradictory. Moreover, he asserts that it is written absurdly in order to prevent anyone from taking a literal meaning!

            The following quote is from Origen, On First Principles, 4.2.9. in "Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 4"

            "But since, if the usefulness of the legislation, and the sequence and beauty of the history, were universally evident of itself, we should not believe that any other thing could be understood in the Scriptures save what was obvious,

            the word of God has arranged that certain
            stumbling-blocks, as it were, and
            offences, and
            impossibilities,
            should be introduced into the midst of the law and the history,

            in order that we may not, through being drawn away in all directions by the merely attractive nature of the language, either altogether fall away from the (true) doctrines, as learning nothing worthy of God, or, by not departing from the letter, come to the knowledge of nothing more divine.

            And this also we must know, that the principal aim being to announce the “spiritual” connection in those things that are done, and that ought to be done, where the Word found that things done according to the history could be adapted to these mystical senses, He made use of them, concealing from the multitude the deeper meaning;

            but where, in the narrative of the development of super-sensual things, 2899 there did not follow the performance of those certain events, which was already indicated by the mystical meaning,

            the Scripture interwove in the history (the account of) some event that did not take place,
            sometimes what could not have happened;
            sometimes what could, but did not. And
            sometimes a few words are interpolated which are not true in their literal acceptation, 2900 and
            sometimes a larger number.

            And a similar practice also is to be noticed with regard to the legislation, in which is often to be found what is useful in itself, and appropriate to the times of the legislation; and sometimes also what does not appear to be of utility;

            and at other times impossibilities are recorded for the sake of the more skilful and inquisitive,
            in order that they may give themselves to the toil of investigating what is written,
            and thus attain to a becoming conviction of the manner in which a meaning worthy of God must be sought out in such subjects.

            It was not only, however, with the (Scriptures composed) before the advent (of Christ) that the Spirit thus dealt; but as being the same Spirit, and (proceeding) from the one God, He did the same thing both with the evangelists and the apostles,—as

            even these [the Gospels] do not contain throughout a pure history of events, which are interwoven indeed according to the letter,
            but which did not actually occur. 2901


            (ON CREATION MYTH)

            Nor even do the law and the commandments wholly convey what is agreeable to reason. For who that has understanding will suppose that the first, and second, and third day, and the evening and the morning, existed without a sun, and moon, and stars? and that the first day was, as it were, also without a sky?

            And who is so foolish as to suppose that God, after the manner of a husbandman, planted a paradise in Eden, towards the east, and placed in it a tree of life, visible and palpable, so that one tasting of the fruit by the bodily teeth obtained life?

            and again, that one was a partaker of good and evil by masticating what was taken from the tree? And if God is said to walk in the paradise in the evening, and Adam to hide himself under a tree, I do not suppose that anyone doubts that these things figuratively indicate certain mysteries, the history having taken place in appearance, and not literally. 2902

            Cain also, when going forth from the presence of God, certainly appears to thoughtful men as likely to lead the reader to inquire what is the presence of God, and what is the meaning of going out from Him. And what need is there to say more, since those who are not altogether blind can collect countless instances of a similar kind recorded as having occurred, but which did not literally2903 take place?

            (ON GOSPELS)

            Nay, the Gospels themselves are filled with the same kind of narratives; e.g., the devil leading Jesus up into a high mountain, in order to show him from thence the kingdoms of the whole world, and the glory of them.

            For who is there among those who do not read such accounts carelessly, that would not condemn those (literalists) who think that with the eye of the body—which requires a lofty height in order that the parts lying (immediately) under and adjacent may be seen—the kingdoms of the Persians, and Scythians, and Indians, and Parthians, were beheld, and the manner in which their princes are glorified among men?

            And the attentive reader may notice in the Gospels innumerable other passages like these, so that he will be convinced that in the histories that are literally recorded, circumstances that did not occur are inserted."
            The early church fathers, who modern fundies call "heretics", rejected the literalism that defines those modern fundies.
            Interestingly, those same fundies are followers of an offshoot, of an offshoot, of Luther's heresy
            When evil is powerful, good men are silenced.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by D Laurier View Post

              The early church fathers, who modern fundies call "heretics", rejected the literalism that defines those modern fundies.
              Interestingly, those same fundies are followers of an offshoot, of an offshoot, of Luther's heresy
              I just finished a really good book that demonstrates how the original Christianity evolved from pagan mythology into the erroneous historical literalism of today. Interestingly, he touches on evolution being a catalyst for rejecting literalism and finding Christianity’ís mystical meaning.

              THE JESUS MYSTERIES WAS THE ORIGINAL JESUS A PAGAN GOD? TIM FREKE & PETER GANDY

              Only a century ago most thinking people believed that the story of Adam and Eve was literally true. Darwin's idea of natural evolution was regarded as ridiculous and heretical. Today Darwin's 'unthinkable thought' has been overwhelmingly accepted. The Jesus Mysteries proposes a comparable shift in our understanding of Christianity. Today it may seem outrageous to claim that Christianity evolved from Paganism and that the Jesus story, like Genesis, is an allegorical myth. But tomorrow this will be obvious and uncontentious. Christianity did not arrive as a unique divine intervention. It evolved from the past, like everything else. There are no sudden breaks in history, only a continuum of change. The ancient Pagan Mysteries did not die. They transformed into something new —into Christianity. The spirituality of the, West has been shaped by these two great traditions. The time has come to rediscover their common ground and claim all of our rich heritage. Of course this will never be accepted by fundamentalists, but if Christianity bows to reactionary pressure to return to its authoritarian past it will be consigning itself to the dustbin of history. The modern world is simply too sophisticated to fall for the 'it must be true because it says so in the Bible' routine. Already Christianity is no longer the dominant force it once was. With its demise our culture has been left desperately searching for a new spiritual direction. Only by returning to its mystical roots will Christianity play a role in the creation of a new spirituality for the New Age of Aquarius. Literalist Christianity is built on the unsteady foundations of historical lies. Sooner or later it must topple over. But mystical Christianity rests securely on the bedrock of timeless mythical truth and is as relevant today as it always has been.
              Last edited by docphin; 02-17-19, 10:13 AM.
              We shall not injure God by remaining ignorant of Him, but shall deprive ourselves of His friendship.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Bob Carabbio View Post
                Originally posted by docphin View Post
                Origen was an early church Father of the second century, is considered among the greatest theologians and he explicitly condemned those who took scriptures literally, explicitly, condemning those who took the creation myth literally and the stories of Jesus in the Gospels.
                Interpretation: Origin was a HERETIC, and a FALSE TEACHER, who taught SATANIC LIES in the church. Shows you how QUICKLY the enemy moved in after the Apostles died, the same as you're been trying to do here for years.
                He is pushin' his pet Myths

                Comment


                • #9
                  Fresh pack of MYTHS


                  God turned you over to a delusion if you take Origen literally.

                  Churches on fire for God don't waste time with the backslid earlychgurch padres.



                  Originally posted by docphin View Post
                  Origen was an early church Father of the second century, is considered among the greatest theologians and he explicitly condemned those who took scriptures literally, explicitly, condemning those who took the creation myth literally and the stories of Jesus in the Gospels.

                  It is a clear refutation of religious fundamentalism (literalization of the myths) which has corrupted the doctrines of the early church and now denies a known fact of our world, that is, evolution!

                  Who is Origen?

                  Origen of Alexandria[a] (c. 184 – c. 253),[3] also known as Origen Adamantius,[b] was an early Christian scholar, ascetic,[6] and theologian who was born and spent the first half of his career in Alexandria. He was a prolific writer who wrote roughly 2,000 treatises in multiple branches of theology, including textual criticism, biblical exegesis and biblical hermeneutics, homiletics, and spirituality. He was one of the most influential figures in early Christian theology, apologetics, and asceticism.[6][7] He has been described as "the greatest genius the early church ever produced". (Wikipedia)

                  What does Origen say about the creation story and the Gospels?--that they are obviously fake stories containing a hidden meaning?

                  How does he know? Because the literal meaning is absurd and contradictory. Moreover, he asserts that it is written absurdly in order to prevent anyone from taking a literal meaning!

                  The following quote is from Origen, On First Principles, 4.2.9. in "Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 4"

                  "But since, if the usefulness of the legislation, and the sequence and beauty of the history, were universally evident of itself, we should not believe that any other thing could be understood in the Scriptures save what was obvious,

                  the word of God has arranged that certain
                  stumbling-blocks, as it were, and
                  offences, and
                  impossibilities,
                  should be introduced into the midst of the law and the history,

                  in order that we may not, through being drawn away in all directions by the merely attractive nature of the language, either altogether fall away from the (true) doctrines, as learning nothing worthy of God, or, by not departing from the letter, come to the knowledge of nothing more divine.

                  And this also we must know, that the principal aim being to announce the “spiritual” connection in those things that are done, and that ought to be done, where the Word found that things done according to the history could be adapted to these mystical senses, He made use of them, concealing from the multitude the deeper meaning;

                  but where, in the narrative of the development of super-sensual things, 2899 there did not follow the performance of those certain events, which was already indicated by the mystical meaning,

                  the Scripture interwove in the history (the account of) some event that did not take place,
                  sometimes what could not have happened;
                  sometimes what could, but did not. And
                  sometimes a few words are interpolated which are not true in their literal acceptation, 2900 and
                  sometimes a larger number.

                  And a similar practice also is to be noticed with regard to the legislation, in which is often to be found what is useful in itself, and appropriate to the times of the legislation; and sometimes also what does not appear to be of utility;

                  and at other times impossibilities are recorded for the sake of the more skilful and inquisitive,
                  in order that they may give themselves to the toil of investigating what is written,
                  and thus attain to a becoming conviction of the manner in which a meaning worthy of God must be sought out in such subjects.

                  It was not only, however, with the (Scriptures composed) before the advent (of Christ) that the Spirit thus dealt; but as being the same Spirit, and (proceeding) from the one God, He did the same thing both with the evangelists and the apostles,—as

                  even these [the Gospels] do not contain throughout a pure history of events, which are interwoven indeed according to the letter,
                  but which did not actually occur. 2901


                  (ON CREATION MYTH)

                  Nor even do the law and the commandments wholly convey what is agreeable to reason. For who that has understanding will suppose that the first, and second, and third day, and the evening and the morning, existed without a sun, and moon, and stars? and that the first day was, as it were, also without a sky?

                  And who is so foolish as to suppose that God, after the manner of a husbandman, planted a paradise in Eden, towards the east, and placed in it a tree of life, visible and palpable, so that one tasting of the fruit by the bodily teeth obtained life?

                  and again, that one was a partaker of good and evil by masticating what was taken from the tree? And if God is said to walk in the paradise in the evening, and Adam to hide himself under a tree, I do not suppose that anyone doubts that these things figuratively indicate certain mysteries, the history having taken place in appearance, and not literally. 2902

                  Cain also, when going forth from the presence of God, certainly appears to thoughtful men as likely to lead the reader to inquire what is the presence of God, and what is the meaning of going out from Him. And what need is there to say more, since those who are not altogether blind can collect countless instances of a similar kind recorded as having occurred, but which did not literally2903 take place?

                  (ON GOSPELS)

                  Nay, the Gospels themselves are filled with the same kind of narratives; e.g., the devil leading Jesus up into a high mountain, in order to show him from thence the kingdoms of the whole world, and the glory of them.

                  For who is there among those who do not read such accounts carelessly, that would not condemn those (literalists) who think that with the eye of the body—which requires a lofty height in order that the parts lying (immediately) under and adjacent may be seen—the kingdoms of the Persians, and Scythians, and Indians, and Parthians, were beheld, and the manner in which their princes are glorified among men?

                  And the attentive reader may notice in the Gospels innumerable other passages like these, so that he will be convinced that in the histories that are literally recorded, circumstances that did not occur are inserted."

                  We don't take your myths and hype literally

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Nouveau View Post
                    Fresh pack of MYTHS


                    God turned you over to a delusion if you take Origen literally.

                    Churches on fire for God don't waste time with the backslid earlychgurch padres.

                    We don't take your myths and hype literally
                    What are "backslid earlychgurch padres" and do they live on the Red Cliff Reservation too?

                    And how and why did the churches catch fire?
                    ... always look on the bright side of life - Idle Cleese

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Bob Carabbio View Post

                      THE BIG YELLOW TAXI!!! not my kind of music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfJv...DMMjfJvjJlU0pM
                      Sure about that?

                      Come up and visit our local festival https://www.grassrootsfest.org/
                      Last edited by I_Love_Cheese; 02-17-19, 05:43 PM.
                      As Saint Mark Twain put it "God created Man in His own image. And man has been returning the favor ever since."

                      Reality rules - Honor the truth.
                      In memorium, Chemist 99a

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by docphin View Post
                        I just follow the evidence, Bob.
                        Take your own advice.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by docphin View Post
                          Origen was an early church Father of the second century, is considered among the greatest theologians and he explicitly condemned those who took scriptures literally, explicitly, condemning those who took the creation myth literally and the stories of Jesus in the Gospels.
                          I know.

                          Academians love him.

                          I don't.

                          Ruckman also believed that the Septuagint was a hoax perpetrated by the "Alexandrian cult" under the leadership of the Church Father Origen Adamantius (as part of his Hexapla) in the 3rd century AD in order to subvert belief in the integrity of the Bible.
                          SOURCE
                          THE BIBLE SAYS IT, THAT SETTLES IT.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by juglans1 View Post
                            But either way, they paved paradise put up a parking lot.
                            The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.
                            THE BIBLE SAYS IT, THAT SETTLES IT.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by docphin View Post
                              I just follow the evidence, Bob. There is no independent Satan teaching anyone anything, just old men holding on to their myths.
                              He sends his muses to do it, while he seeks whom he may devour.
                              THE BIBLE SAYS IT, THAT SETTLES IT.

                              Comment

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