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Endgame, Infinity Stones, Time Travel, and the Multiverse

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  • Endgame, Infinity Stones, Time Travel, and the Multiverse

    I have HRG in mind for this thread but obviously, fair game for everyone. Warning....if you haven't seen Avengers: Endgame, and don't want spoilers, stop reading now. I figure enough time has passed since that movie came out that I don't feel bad talking about it here.

    ...
    ...
    ...

    Ok, so in the movie, the six infinity stones (soul stone, reality stone, space stone, time stone, mind stone, and power stone) were formed at the beginning of the universe. Thanos collects them all and with the combined power, snaps half the living things out of existence. In Endgame, they are trying to undo this snap. One of the ways they do it is by going back in time to where they first run across the various stones.

    Time travel inherently presents theoretical problems, and there have typically been two ways of dealing with it. First, there's just one timeline, and every time you move backward or forward in time, it's along that same timeline. Which means that if you go back in the past and affect something, it will have repercussions in the future. One obvious problem is that you could go back in time and accidentally impact your own existence. Back to the Future addresses time travel this way, as Marty McFly accidentally interfered with his father and mother getting together, and so much of the movie is spent with him trying to make that happen. He succeeds in a way that turns his father from a bumbling stooge into a confident, successful man, so when Marty goes back to 1985 (his original time), not only does he and his family exist, but they are wildly successful and the tables are turned on antagonist Biff.

    But Endgame approaches time travel differently. Instead of being one timeline, there are multiple. Every time they go back in time, it launches a new timeline - a new universe, as it were. So Captain America ends up running into, and fighting, himself at one point. Meaning there were, at that junction of space-time, two Captain Americas there. Suppose the Cap that went back in time got stuck there...forever on that timeline there would have been two Captain Americas living in that world, and none in the original world.

    In that scene, Loki ends up grabbing the tesseract, which houses one of the infinity stones (the space stone). And then he disappears. We do not know where he went. But let's say that these stones are used to transport someone back in time, even just 30 minutes. 30 minutes prior, the infinity stones existed, but now an entirely "new" group of infinity stones have been transported to that point in time from 30 minutes into the future. So the original timeline now has zero infinity stones, but the world of 30 minutes prior suddenly has...two complete sets of infinity stones. How is THAT supposed to work? Let's say Thanos has all the infinity stones and goes back in time 30 minutes. Now there are two Thanos' back in that alternative timeline, and two full sets of infinity stones. Then let's say he goes back one minute again - that also opens up a different timeline, and now there are THREE sets of infinity stones. Let's say he keeps doing this, incrementally back in time. There could theoretically be thousands of Thanos' with thousands of complete sets of infinity stones. Given that these stones harnessed the fundamental aspects of the universe, it would seem impossible for there to be multiple sets of these stones - after all, which power stone, for example, is the most powerful? Theoretically, Thanos could do this trillions of times, then collect all the sets of infinity stones, and travel back to his original timeline, and distribute infinity stones to trillions of people. Most of them wouldn't be powerful enough to wield them, but still.

    Now, here's the real problem. The combined set of these infinity stones is so powerful that its user could theoretically snap the universe out of existence. So if Thanos went back in time and used his infinity stones to snap another universe (the alternative timeline) out of existence, Since the universes are now connected - via Thanos' time travel, which must have created some portal, some tunnel, between the two - why wouldn't such a snap destroy BOTH universes, BOTH timelines?

    All of this is to say....there are fundamental problems with the idea of a multiverse. Either they are completely disconnected realities or they are connected somehow. If they are completely disconnected, then we have no way of knowing anything about them. If they are connected, then there has to be a way for us - theoretically - to travel back and forth between them, and for one universe to influence another, and so what happens in one universe can impact another in the multiverse.

    HRG - help us understand this better!
    "It is said that an argument is what convinces reasonable men and a proof is what it takes to convince even an unreasonable man." - Alex Vilenkin

  • #2
    Erm, you do know that the whole Marvel thing is Science Fiction, don't you?

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by TeabagSalad View Post
      Erm, you do know that the whole Marvel thing is Science Fiction, don't you?
      Yes. Do you not see my larger question?
      "It is said that an argument is what convinces reasonable men and a proof is what it takes to convince even an unreasonable man." - Alex Vilenkin

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Crazy Ivan View Post
        Either they are completely disconnected realities or they are connected somehow. If they are completely disconnected, then we have no way of knowing anything about them. If they are connected, then there has to be a way for us - theoretically - to travel back and forth between them, and for one universe to influence another, and so what happens in one universe can impact another in the multiverse.
        False dichotomy. For example, they may have been connected in the past, but no longer. For example, when Voyager was launched is was for a short time gravitationally 'connected' to earth, moving under the influence of earth's gravitational field. Now it is so distant that the influence of earth's gravitational field is negligible.

        New universes may start 'close' and later separate so there is no detectable level of connection between them.

        You need to consider more options.
        The ultimate truth is that there is no ultimate truth.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by rossum View Post

          False dichotomy. For example, they may have been connected in the past, but no longer. For example, when Voyager was launched is was for a short time gravitationally 'connected' to earth, moving under the influence of earth's gravitational field. Now it is so distant that the influence of earth's gravitational field is negligible.

          New universes may start 'close' and later separate so there is no detectable level of connection between them.

          You need to consider more options.
          If one is traveling in time, this creating a connection between one universe and another, then they are connected. You may be right that such a connection isn’t necessarily permanent.
          "It is said that an argument is what convinces reasonable men and a proof is what it takes to convince even an unreasonable man." - Alex Vilenkin

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Crazy Ivan View Post
            I have HRG in mind for this thread but obviously, fair game for everyone. Warning....if you haven't seen Avengers: Endgame, and don't want spoilers, stop reading now. I figure enough time has passed since that movie came out that I don't feel bad talking about it here...
            Ok, so in the movie, the six infinity stones (soul stone, reality stone, space stone, time stone, mind stone, and power stone) were formed at the beginning of the universe. Thanos collects them all and with the combined power, snaps half the living things out of existence. In Endgame, they are trying to undo this snap. One of the ways they do it is by going back in time to where they first run across the various stones.
            Time travel inherently presents theoretical problems, and there have typically been two ways of dealing with it. First, there's just one timeline, and every time you move backward or forward in time, it's along that same timeline. Which means that if you go back in the past and affect something, it will have repercussions in the future. One obvious problem is that you could go back in time and accidentally impact your own existence. Back to the Future addresses time travel this way, as Marty McFly accidentally interfered with his father and mother getting together, and so much of the movie is spent with him trying to make that happen. He succeeds in a way that turns his father from a bumbling stooge into a confident, successful man, so when Marty goes back to 1985 (his original time), not only does he and his family exist, but they are wildly successful and the tables are turned on antagonist Biff.
            But Endgame approaches time travel differently. Instead of being one timeline, there are multiple. Every time they go back in time, it launches a new timeline - a new universe, as it were. So Captain America ends up running into, and fighting, himself at one point. Meaning there were, at that junction of space-time, two Captain Americas there. Suppose the Cap that went back in time got stuck there...forever on that timeline there would have been two Captain Americas living in that world, and none in the original world.
            In that scene, Loki ends up grabbing the tesseract, which houses one of the infinity stones (the space stone). And then he disappears. We do not know where he went. But let's say that these stones are used to transport someone back in time, even just 30 minutes. 30 minutes prior, the infinity stones existed, but now an entirely "new" group of infinity stones have been transported to that point in time from 30 minutes into the future. So the original timeline now has zero infinity stones, but the world of 30 minutes prior suddenly has...two complete sets of infinity stones. How is THAT supposed to work? Let's say Thanos has all the infinity stones and goes back in time 30 minutes. Now there are two Thanos' back in that alternative timeline, and two full sets of infinity stones. Then let's say he goes back one minute again - that also opens up a different timeline, and now there are THREE sets of infinity stones. Let's say he keeps doing this, incrementally back in time. There could theoretically be thousands of Thanos' with thousands of complete sets of infinity stones. Given that these stones harnessed the fundamental aspects of the universe, it would seem impossible for there to be multiple sets of these stones - after all, which power stone, for example, is the most powerful? Theoretically, Thanos could do this trillions of times, then collect all the sets of infinity stones, and travel back to his original timeline, and distribute infinity stones to trillions of people. Most of them wouldn't be powerful enough to wield them, but still.
            Now, here's the real problem. The combined set of these infinity stones is so powerful that its user could theoretically snap the universe out of existence. So if Thanos went back in time and used his infinity stones to snap another universe (the alternative timeline) out of existence, Since the universes are now connected - via Thanos' time travel, which must have created some portal, some tunnel, between the two - why wouldn't such a snap destroy BOTH universes, BOTH timelines?
            All of this is to say....there are fundamental problems with the idea of a multiverse. Either they are completely disconnected realities or they are connected somehow. If they are completely disconnected, then we have no way of knowing anything about them. If they are connected, then there has to be a way for us - theoretically - to travel back and forth between them, and for one universe to influence another, and so what happens in one universe can impact another in the multiverse.
            HRG - help us understand this better!
            n>lol. What jokes. Your universe is really something else... literally and figuratively. Let's look at one of your jokes:

            Originally posted by Crazy Ivan View Post
            ... there are fundamental problems with the idea of a multiverse...
            n>Ever hear the term "understated"? lol. Then there is this beaut:

            Originally posted by Crazy Ivan View Post
            ... HRG - help us understand this better!
            n>wow. Then there is this gag:

            Originally posted by Crazy Ivan View Post
            ... multiverse. Either they are completely disconnected realities or they are connected somehow. If they are completely disconnected, then we have no way of knowing anything about them. If they are connected, then there has to be a way for us - theoretically - to travel back and forth between them, and for one universe to influence another, and so what happens in one universe can impact another in the multiverse...
            n>That is a real doozydumdum. Why? It's probably obvious to most smarties that smarties have multiverses connected in their brains. See? Multiverse smarties connect their fantastic fantasies together in their brains. Smarties know for certain multiverses exist -- in their brains. See? Out of their brains come multiverses. See? Like in your amazingly sublime OP. From your amazing smarty brain came your amazing smarty OP with what? Multiverses? Are they connected? When your smarty brain connects them. Are they disconnected? Again, when your smarty brain disconnects them. See? Are they on the www? Sure. Your brain put them into your fingers (presumably) and then they went onto CARM and onto the www and now my smarty brain is connected to your smarty multiverses if I want... or not if I don't want. See? Maybe that is a too plain vanilla multiverse for you? Hey! I know! Ask theoretical physicists... they know all about theories and how to bamboozle folks. Spoiler alert if you don't know about a multiverse you did not mention: Wizard of Oz. Ignore Toto pulling at the curtain, and ignore the man behind the curtain and click your red slippers and all will be just fine... all connected... lol... Want more? lol.

            .
            Mouser Larry Roy: "yippee ki yay"
            “... see the loonies in their cages… are they not witty… how much amusement they afford… ours is a human world, theirs is a bestial world… " Bedlam

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Crazy Ivan View Post

              Yes. Do you not see my larger question?
              n>I see it! I see it! I see it! lol.
              Mouser Larry Roy: "yippee ki yay"
              “... see the loonies in their cages… are they not witty… how much amusement they afford… ours is a human world, theirs is a bestial world… " Bedlam

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Crazy Ivan View Post
                Yes. Do you not see my larger question?
                I have to admit your "larger question" escapes me.

                Perhaps you could state this question, please (not be snarky, just honestly don't see it)?

                My curiosity is aroused given that this is a forum for discussing Evolution/ID and I don't really see how the multiverse hypothesis (really different forms of this as explained HERE, short video HERE) is relevant to the topic of this particular board (seems more appropriate for the Astronomy or General Sciences/Mathematics board IMO, so why this board?).
                Reality rules, Honor the truth--John A. Steele *chemist99a*
                Atheism isn't a religion. It's a personal relationship with reality--Eamon Knight
                Death is nothing to us, since while we exist, death is not, and when death has come, we are not.--Epicurus

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by phoenix702 View Post
                  I have to admit your "larger question" escapes me.

                  Perhaps you could state this question, please (not be snarky, just honestly don't see it)?

                  My curiosity is aroused given that this is a forum for discussing Evolution/ID and I don't really see how the multiverse hypothesis (really different forms of this as explained HERE, short video HERE) is relevant to the topic of this particular board (seems more appropriate for the Astronomy or General Sciences/Mathematics board IMO, so why this board?).
                  I posted on this forum because (a) I've never been to those other forums, and (b) this where HRG typically is, to my knowledge, and (c) he and I have discussed the multiverse before.

                  The larger question is the nature of the multiverse. The Avengers was just a fun way of posing the question of alternative universes. The last paragraph in the OP: "All of this is to say....there are fundamental problems with the idea of a multiverse. Either they are completely disconnected realities or they are connected somehow. If they are completely disconnected, then we have no way of knowing anything about them. If they are connected, then there has to be a way for us - theoretically - to travel back and forth between them, and for one universe to influence another, and so what happens in one universe can impact another in the multiverse."

                  I guess that's more a comment than a question, but the question really is: What is the nature of the multiverse? And if they're all connected (for example, as Avengers portrays it) then they're really just the SAME universe ultimately, as one can impact the other. If they are completely disconnected, how in the world could we ever know that they actually exist?
                  "It is said that an argument is what convinces reasonable men and a proof is what it takes to convince even an unreasonable man." - Alex Vilenkin

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Sorry, Crazy Ivan, for me the only Avengers were Steed (Patrick McKnee) and Emma Peel (Diana Rigg).
                    Last edited by HRG; 05-27-19, 04:48 PM.
                    Regards, HRG.

                    "The universe doesn't care what happens to its inhabitants, but its inhabitants do" (Tyrrho).

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Crazy Ivan View Post

                      I posted on this forum because (a) I've never been to those other forums, and (b) this where HRG typically is, to my knowledge, and (c) he and I have discussed the multiverse before.

                      The larger question is the nature of the multiverse. The Avengers was just a fun way of posing the question of alternative universes. The last paragraph in the OP: "All of this is to say....there are fundamental problems with the idea of a multiverse. Either they are completely disconnected realities or they are connected somehow. If they are completely disconnected, then we have no way of knowing anything about them. If they are connected, then there has to be a way for us - theoretically - to travel back and forth between them, and for one universe to influence another, and so what happens in one universe can impact another in the multiverse."

                      I guess that's more a comment than a question, but the question really is: What is the nature of the multiverse? And if they're all connected (for example, as Avengers portrays it) then they're really just the SAME universe ultimately, as one can impact the other. If they are completely disconnected, how in the world could we ever know that they actually exist?
                      Okay, thank you for your thoughtful response and explanation, this could might actually be an interesting topic if certain trolls don't try to derail it...
                      Reality rules, Honor the truth--John A. Steele *chemist99a*
                      Atheism isn't a religion. It's a personal relationship with reality--Eamon Knight
                      Death is nothing to us, since while we exist, death is not, and when death has come, we are not.--Epicurus

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by phoenix702 View Post

                        Okay, thank you for your thoughtful response and explanation, this could might actually be an interesting topic if certain trolls don't try to derail it...
                        Sure thing.

                        I've argued that the multiverse isn't "scientific" because it's unfalsifiable. If universes are connected how do we know that we aren't just one big universe? If they're not connected, then there will be, by definition, no possible way to have evidence of another universe, since there's no possible way for any information to transfer from one to the other (how can there without a connection?). So any multiverse claim cannot be disproven*. As such, it's unfalsifiable, and therefore, unscientific.

                        I think this article is super interesting on this topic: https://philosophynow.org/issues/89/...erse_Conundrum


                        *Specific aspects could be, but not the general idea of a multiverse. In other words, to give an absurd example, one could claim that the multiverse is created by Joe Smith of 10 Downing Street and it's done by frying eggs on his stove at 9:00am. THAT specific thing could be falsified, but then we could just reply with, well, just because that's not how a multiverse exists, doesn't mean it doesn't exist another way. And then literally an infinite number of scenarios could be painted, thus making the general claim of a multiverse unfalsifiable.
                        "It is said that an argument is what convinces reasonable men and a proof is what it takes to convince even an unreasonable man." - Alex Vilenkin

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Crazy Ivan View Post
                          I have HRG in mind for this thread but obviously, fair game for everyone. Warning....if you haven't seen Avengers: Endgame, and don't want spoilers, stop reading now. I figure enough time has passed since that movie came out that I don't feel bad talking about it here.

                          ...
                          ...
                          ...

                          Ok, so in the movie, the six infinity stones (soul stone, reality stone, space stone, time stone, mind stone, and power stone) were formed at the beginning of the universe. Thanos collects them all and with the combined power, snaps half the living things out of existence. In Endgame, they are trying to undo this snap. One of the ways they do it is by going back in time to where they first run across the various stones.

                          Time travel inherently presents theoretical problems, and there have typically been two ways of dealing with it. First, there's just one timeline, and every time you move backward or forward in time, it's along that same timeline. Which means that if you go back in the past and affect something, it will have repercussions in the future. One obvious problem is that you could go back in time and accidentally impact your own existence. Back to the Future addresses time travel this way, as Marty McFly accidentally interfered with his father and mother getting together, and so much of the movie is spent with him trying to make that happen. He succeeds in a way that turns his father from a bumbling stooge into a confident, successful man, so when Marty goes back to 1985 (his original time), not only does he and his family exist, but they are wildly successful and the tables are turned on antagonist Biff.

                          But Endgame approaches time travel differently. Instead of being one timeline, there are multiple. Every time they go back in time, it launches a new timeline - a new universe, as it were. So Captain America ends up running into, and fighting, himself at one point. Meaning there were, at that junction of space-time, two Captain Americas there. Suppose the Cap that went back in time got stuck there...forever on that timeline there would have been two Captain Americas living in that world, and none in the original world.

                          In that scene, Loki ends up grabbing the tesseract, which houses one of the infinity stones (the space stone). And then he disappears. We do not know where he went. But let's say that these stones are used to transport someone back in time, even just 30 minutes. 30 minutes prior, the infinity stones existed, but now an entirely "new" group of infinity stones have been transported to that point in time from 30 minutes into the future. So the original timeline now has zero infinity stones, but the world of 30 minutes prior suddenly has...two complete sets of infinity stones. How is THAT supposed to work? Let's say Thanos has all the infinity stones and goes back in time 30 minutes. Now there are two Thanos' back in that alternative timeline, and two full sets of infinity stones. Then let's say he goes back one minute again - that also opens up a different timeline, and now there are THREE sets of infinity stones. Let's say he keeps doing this, incrementally back in time. There could theoretically be thousands of Thanos' with thousands of complete sets of infinity stones. Given that these stones harnessed the fundamental aspects of the universe, it would seem impossible for there to be multiple sets of these stones - after all, which power stone, for example, is the most powerful? Theoretically, Thanos could do this trillions of times, then collect all the sets of infinity stones, and travel back to his original timeline, and distribute infinity stones to trillions of people. Most of them wouldn't be powerful enough to wield them, but still.

                          Now, here's the real problem. The combined set of these infinity stones is so powerful that its user could theoretically snap the universe out of existence. So if Thanos went back in time and used his infinity stones to snap another universe (the alternative timeline) out of existence, Since the universes are now connected - via Thanos' time travel, which must have created some portal, some tunnel, between the two - why wouldn't such a snap destroy BOTH universes, BOTH timelines?

                          All of this is to say....there are fundamental problems with the idea of a multiverse. Either they are completely disconnected realities or they are connected somehow. If they are completely disconnected, then we have no way of knowing anything about them. If they are connected, then there has to be a way for us - theoretically - to travel back and forth between them, and for one universe to influence another, and so what happens in one universe can impact another in the multiverse.

                          HRG - help us understand this better!
                          The question is that if you go back in time do the laws of probability still apply as in the present or is it constrained to follow the same path as it did before. For example if you flip a coin which has a probability of 50 percent of either heads or tails with a given result and then go back in time and watch it get flipped again. Is it restrained to give the same result or is it still 50/50. I say that going back in time resets the probability clock and that the likelihood that events will follow the same path is so small that it a near impossibility. Or that every molecular or atomic collision will not follow the same path as before.
                          Last edited by cisco qid; 05-29-19, 03:25 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by HRG View Post
                            Sorry, Crazy Ivan, for me the only Avengers were Steed (Patrick McKnee) and Emma Peel (Diana Rigg).
                            Just noticed this. It's Patrick Macnee (1922-2105), and of course Dame Diana Rigg.
                            "Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, and not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." - Charles Darwin

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Tim H View Post
                              Just noticed this. It's Patrick Macnee (1922-2105), and of course Dame Diana Rigg.
                              Erm... s/2105/2015. He wasn't quite that old.

                              Not forgetting Mr. Peel, who only appeared the once: Goodbye Mrs. Peel.
                              The ultimate truth is that there is no ultimate truth.

                              Comment

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