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This is why there is such confushion as to the age of the earth

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  • #76
    Originally posted by LeoTheLibrarian View Post

    My position is that you have no way of knowing about writing on most organic materials.
    And your position is wrong
    Clay tablets could be 1000's of years after the first writings. Perhaps 100 times that.
    Or (as most likely given the evidence) not.
    Do you understand what writing is?
    Do you understand that nomadic peoples have no need for complex record keeping?
    Do you understand that settled communities and hierarchy, are prerequisite for writing?
    Only when communities are too large for everyone to know eachother, does a civilization begin to develop writing.

    If bears can mark on trees today, then humans could write communications on anything.
    When bear claw marks can be read to express complex abstract ideas, you get back to me.



    lol!.....nobody predicts tsunamis....We are only considering systems for spotting them today.
    Wow... The Pacific Tsunami watch has been in place since the 1970s.
    We only just recently experimented with a system to predict the locations for aftershocks.
    1970s.
    After an earthquake. And it doesn't sound like it was successful.
    Wow... More 1970s.
    When evil is powerful, good men are silenced.

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by D Laurier View Post
      And your position is wrong
      My position is that you have no way of knowing about writing on most organic materials.
      It's not debatable.
      - Do for others as you would want them to do for you: this is the foundation of the Law of Moses and of the teachings of the prophets. -

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by LeoTheLibrarian View Post
        My position is that you have no way of knowing about writing on most organic materials.
        It's not debatable.
        And your position is wrong.
        Equally not debatable
        When evil is powerful, good men are silenced.

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by D Laurier View Post

          And your position is wrong.
          Equally not debatable
          The fragility of writing materials is very well documented.
          vase painting of a student
          writing on a tablet
          Ancient writers wrote on a variety of other materials besides papyrus, including pottery, animal hides, wood, and even ancient paper. There was, to a certain extent, a progression over time from the use of papyrus to parchment and later, paper. However, the unique characterstics of each material often lended them particular uses which were maintained over the centuries.

          The Michigan Papyrus Collection has examples of many, varied types of writing materials - click on a material below to learn more about it. Each page contains information about that material as well as images of examples from the collection. In some cases, a link to the APIS entry for the example text is also available, providing detailed information, images and translations.

          https://www.lib.umich.edu/papyrology...ting-materials

          - Do for others as you would want them to do for you: this is the foundation of the Law of Moses and of the teachings of the prophets. -

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by LeoTheLibrarian View Post

            The fragility of writing materials is very well documented.
            And?
            Your point is?

            vase painting of a student
            writing on a tablet
            Ancient writers wrote on a variety of other materials besides papyrus, including pottery, animal hides, wood, and even ancient paper. There was, to a certain extent, a progression over time from the use of papyrus to parchment and later, paper. However, the unique characterstics of each material often lended them particular uses which were maintained over the centuries.

            The Michigan Papyrus Collection has examples of many, varied types of writing materials - click on a material below to learn more about it. Each page contains information about that material as well as images of examples from the collection. In some cases, a link to the APIS entry for the example text is also available, providing detailed information, images and translations.
            And?
            Your point is?


            And?
            Your point is?



            When evil is powerful, good men are silenced.

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by D Laurier View Post
              Do you understand what writing is?
              Do you understand that nomadic peoples have no need for complex record keeping?
              Do you understand that settled communities and hierarchy, are prerequisite for writing?
              Only when communities are too large for everyone to know each other, does a civilization begin to develop writing.

              Poppycock


              I send my wife messages every day. So any two people in history will leave communications for each other. Occasionally I'l use emojis, like early man did.
              Just as bears communicate to each other today to mark territory with their claws and smells.
              "Some of the ancient Greek and Roman knowledge that was lost after the burning of the Alexandria Library and in the subsequent Dark Ages did survive under Arab protection, and when combined with their own knowledge, helped these people move ahead of Europe in the early phase of the recovery or Renaissance period."

              " Chinese characters are found on oracle bones—animal bones or turtle plastrons"

              All the earliest writings were on organic materials that degrade over time. There is no "limit" to how early man first began writing other than the limits of rare discovery of writing on materials that have yet not degraded. All "earliest writing" discoveries are subject to additional archaeology finds that predate them. And such claims often state this.
              Last edited by LeoTheLibrarian; 10-12-18, 09:06 AM.
              - Do for others as you would want them to do for you: this is the foundation of the Law of Moses and of the teachings of the prophets. -

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by LeoTheLibrarian View Post


                PoppyCock. I send my wife messages every day. So any two people in history will leave communications for each other. Occasionally I'l use emojis, like early man did.
                Huh?
                You and your wife are stone age hunter gatherers?
                So early man had computers, cell phones, and satellite communications? Wow



                "Some of the ancient Greek and Roman knowledge that was lost after the burning of the Alexandria Library and in the subsequent Dark Ages did survive under Arab protection, and when combined with their own knowledge, helped these people move ahead of Europe in the early phase of the recovery or Renaissance period."
                Yes... And???
                Water is wet. So what?

                " Chinese characters used on oracle bones—animal bones or turtle plastrons"
                ... were??? Finish your thought.


                All the earliest writings were on organic materials that degrade over time.
                Except the ones that we have examples of.
                There is no "limit" to how early man first began writing other than the limits of rare discovery of writing on materials that have yet not degraded.
                Except the lack of evidence of earlier writing,, or the social organization required to support it.
                All "earliest writing" discoveries are subject to additional archaeology finds that predate them. And such claims often state this
                And?
                How does this push back writing to before the first humans existed?
                You have after all stated that humans were writing "millions" of years ago...
                There is a difference between 5500 years ago, and 2,000,000 years ago.
                5500 years ago there were cities, and centralized bureaucracies.
                2,000,000 years ago there were roving bands of australopithecenes, just sorting out how to bash a deer with a rock.
                When evil is powerful, good men are silenced.

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by D Laurier View Post
                  2,000,000 years ago there were roving bands of australopithecenes, just sorting out how to bash a deer with a rock.
                  Bears leave marks for each other. They didn't learn it from man.
                  Hunter gatherer groups in your imagination have no less need for writing than anyone else.

                  Storytelling in hunter/gather groups is a valued skill and this would promote writing as well as any other influence.
                  This eliminates your population theory for writing. Additionally, all writing materials would be lost from degradation.
                  - Do for others as you would want them to do for you: this is the foundation of the Law of Moses and of the teachings of the prophets. -

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by LeoTheLibrarian View Post

                    Bears leave marks for each other. They didn't learn it from man.
                    Bears dont leave detailed accounts of events. They leave slashes that all translate as "My territory. Keep out". Nothing more.
                    Writing tends to be a bit more involved. "Walk 3 days north, and then turn west to pass around my territory... There you will find water. Attempting to circle south will take you into dry and rocky hills with no water".
                    As opposed to simply "My territory. Keep out"
                    Hunter gatherer groups in your imagination have no less need for writing than anyone else.
                    My imagination has nothing to do with the fact that no Kalahari bushmen tribe has felt any need to develop writing.
                    And the Kalahari bush tribes DO exist, outside of my imagination. And no, its not that they are less intelligent.
                    They are every bit as intelligent as any pale skinned European. They just have no reason to develop writing.
                    Written documents are weight to carry. Nomadic people do not carry unnecessary weight.


                    Storytelling in hunter/gather groups is a valued skill and this would promote writing as well as any other influence.
                    And yet no hunter/gatherer civilization ever developed writing.

                    This eliminates your population theory for writing.
                    What population theory is that? The one you just made up?
                    Additionally, all writing materials would be lost from degradation.
                    So where are the Kalahari texts? The Inuit texts? The Lakota texts? The Yanomamo texts?
                    These hunter/gatherer civilizations are still around... And they have no writing materials to be lost from degradation.
                    When evil is powerful, good men are silenced.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by D Laurier View Post
                      Bears dont leave detailed accounts of events. They leave slashes that all translate as "My territory. Keep out". Nothing more.
                      Writing tends to be a bit more involved. "Walk 3 days north, and then turn west to pass around my territory... There you will find water. Attempting to circle south will take you into dry and rocky hills with no water".
                      As opposed to simply "My territory. Keep out"
                      The point being that high population or high brain function or advanced humanoid evolution is not an issue.
                      Any two people have good reason to write each other. All your excuses for lack of writing ability with "early"
                      man are voided by black bears marking trees. If for no other reason than man could have learned from
                      black bears to write on trees.

                      And of course there's the point that perhaps hunter-gatherer societies did invent writing, but not on a medium which has survived to the present. Writing on animal skins in the jungle isn't going to last as long as baked clay tablets have.
                      Last edited by LeoTheLibrarian; 10-14-18, 04:34 AM.
                      - Do for others as you would want them to do for you: this is the foundation of the Law of Moses and of the teachings of the prophets. -

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by LeoTheLibrarian View Post

                        The point being that high population or high brain function or advanced humanoid evolution is not an issue.
                        Indeed, Which is why I never brought up any of these non-issues.
                        Thew only issue I have brought up is NEED. The NECESSITY to have a way to keep track of who owns what, on a large enough scale that no one person can possibly remember it all.
                        Any two people have good reason to write each other.
                        Oh? What about two people who have no idea that eachother exist?
                        You do realize that the very idea of writing personal letters, is a rather recent innovation, that required the invention of a postal service.
                        Untill the mid 1700s, all letters were carried by paid couriers. Most were correspondence between kings, or treaties, or declarations of war, or some other official document.
                        If Hamish the blacksmith of Branbury wanted an wagon load of iron ore, he would lead an ox cart to the middlands, and find a common mine. Or to the coastal fens, where he would probe for bog iron. Most people could not even read.
                        All your excuses for lack of writing ability with "early" man are voided by black bears marking trees.
                        All zero of them. My utter lack of any excuses, stands obvious for all to see.
                        If for no other reason than man could have learned from black bears to write on trees.
                        And yet no man ever did so. The only writing system to independently develop on a continent with black bears, grew from a culture that had never encountered bears at all.
                        The Maya writing system, has no glyph that remotely resemble bear claw marks. Not one. And their territory is over a thousand miles south of the southern range of black bears.
                        I think you are trying to flintstone your way through to the idea that the ancient past was just like modern suburbia. It wasnt.



                        And you dishonestly quote me as agreeing with your silly nonsense.
                        I have not said what you have quoted me as saying


                        When evil is powerful, good men are silenced.

                        Comment

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