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A bast from the past, scopes trial

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  • simplicio
    started a topic A bast from the past, scopes trial

    A bast from the past, scopes trial

    https://www.history.com/news/scopes-monkey-trial-evolution-religion-darrow-bryan

    Interesting how times have changed! (or have they)

    The link has an old video clip

  • Hypatia_Alexandria
    replied
    Originally posted by simplicio View Post

    I think religion offers the world much more. .
    It can also be the cause of horror and misery. It's the wedge that Dawkins spoke of.

    At the thin end we have the tolerant, compassionate, and liberal religious believers, at the thick end we have fanatics driven by what their beliefs, often reinforced by ancient sacred texts, tell them.

    As a woman I must also add that, particularly within the Abrahamic religions which perceive the Supreme Being as male, patriarchies and patriarchal attitudes are thereby reinforced.

    Leave a comment:


  • simplicio
    replied
    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    I agree with your latter comment. Irrational beliefs remain perennially popular and of course feed into insecurities and prejudices.

    We will have to disagree on some of those points.

    My own view is that religion is no longer necessary to explain the natural world. We no longer have to propitiate the gods to ensure the river floods at the right time or that the sun will return tomorrow. We have an understanding of natural phenomena and the natural process.

    So why does religion continue to exist? The reasons for that are myriad.

    From my own observations it seems that religious belief provides comfort times at of bereavement, explaining that loss by the actions of some Higher Intellect and, in some religions, the prospect of being reunited in eternity.

    For others, the religious revelation (or light bulb moment) offers them a solution to various problems in their lives (my 5 Ds as I term them).

    Although perhaps, and maybe more importantly, religious affiliation gives a sense of community and of belonging, along with the knowledge that a community of fellow believers will be there for support and comfort..

    For some it also lays down definite parameters by which to live. These parameters, provided they are adhered to, keeps the individual "safe" and removes all need to think beyond what the religion teaches and its observances/practices. This has been cited as one of the reasons western women are turning to Islam.

    It is not unique, but as we have agreed, irrational beliefs persist.

    Perhaps there are also more hubristic elements to the rejection of evolution and the age of the universe and this planet.

    Human beings have a strong sense of self awareness, perhaps for many, the insignificant origins of life, and the randomness of evolution, affronts their vanity that we (Homo sapiens) must be something more than a mere evolutionary happenstance.
    I think religion offers the world much more. The writings of MLK, Dietrich Bonhoffer, JPII, and Martin Buber have influence far beyond the parochial enclaves of religion.

    There is the relationship of the individual with the faith, there is also the outward impact of the religion.

    Leave a comment:


  • Hypatia_Alexandria
    replied
    Originally posted by simplicio View Post
    What sticks out for me in the Kitzmiller v. Dover Schools case was how the evolutionist side "evolved" over the years, creationism made no real progress.
    I think you are sneaking in some views about progress into the discussion, views which I disagree with (I am not disagreeing that it is nonsensical) in the world today, not just the US, So today we are seeing the spread of ideas which a generation ago we laughed away. Geocentrism, moon hoax theories, Jew Peril theories are all rooted in the same anti-intellectual skepticism as creationism.
    I agree with your latter comment. Irrational beliefs remain perennially popular and of course feed into insecurities and prejudices.

    Originally posted by simplicio View Post
    The creationism controversy impacts Christianity, the divides are real, and affect how the faith is interpreted and expressed in the public sphere. And in the US, faith has a strong presence in the public sphere. And I argue that it has not disappeared entirely in Europe. And I argue, contra atheists, that it is healthy for society.
    We will have to disagree on some of those points.

    My own view is that religion is no longer necessary to explain the natural world. We no longer have to propitiate the gods to ensure the river floods at the right time or that the sun will return tomorrow. We have an understanding of natural phenomena and the natural process.

    So why does religion continue to exist? The reasons for that are myriad.

    From my own observations it seems that religious belief provides comfort times at of bereavement, explaining that loss by the actions of some Higher Intellect and, in some religions, the prospect of being reunited in eternity.

    For others, the religious revelation (or light bulb moment) offers them a solution to various problems in their lives (my 5 Ds as I term them).

    Although perhaps, and maybe more importantly, religious affiliation gives a sense of community and of belonging, along with the knowledge that a community of fellow believers will be there for support and comfort..

    For some it also lays down definite parameters by which to live. These parameters, provided they are adhered to, keeps the individual "safe" and removes all need to think beyond what the religion teaches and its observances/practices. This has been cited as one of the reasons western women are turning to Islam.

    Originally posted by simplicio View Post
    I would sum up my view as creationism represents a retreat from modernity, which challenges the place of religion in society and the public sphere. While creationism in the US is visible and falls along religious lines, Europe is facing a smaller but similar challenge which does not follow religious lines. So creationism is not unique.
    It is not unique, but as we have agreed, irrational beliefs persist.

    Perhaps there are also more hubristic elements to the rejection of evolution and the age of the universe and this planet.

    Human beings have a strong sense of self awareness, perhaps for many, the insignificant origins of life, and the randomness of evolution, affronts their vanity that we (Homo sapiens) must be something more than a mere evolutionary happenstance.
    Last edited by Hypatia_Alexandria; 08-17-18, 06:33 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • simplicio
    replied
    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

    Wasn't there a similar case in Dover some years ago? I recall watching a documentary when a group of zealous Christians tried to introduce a Creationist "text" book (I use the word advisedly) into the classroom.

    The discrepancy between such nonsensical views as creationism existing in one of the most technologically advanced nations in the world, continues to remain utterly baffling.

    What sticks out for me in the Kitzmiller v. Dover Schools case was how the evolutionist side "evolved" over the years, creationism made no real progress.

    I think you are sneaking in some views about progress into the discussion, views which I disagree with (I am not disagreeing that it is nonsensical) in the world today, not just the US, So today we are seeing the spread of ideas which a generation ago we laughed away. Geocentrism, moon hoax theories, Jew Peril theories are all rooted in the same anti-intellectual skepticism as creationism.

    The creationism controversy impacts Christianity, the divides are real, and affect how the faith is interpreted and expressed in the public sphere. And in the US, faith has a strong presence in the public sphere. And I argue that it has not disappeared entirely in Europe. And I argue, contra atheists, that it is healthy for society.

    I would sum up my view as creationism represents a retreat from modernity, which challenges the place of religion in society and the public sphere. While creationism in the US is visible and falls along religious lines, Europe is facing a smaller but similar challenge which does not follow religious lines. So creationism is not unique.

    Leave a comment:


  • Hypatia_Alexandria
    replied
    Originally posted by simplicio View Post

    Yes. The Butler Act itself is interesting, a law against the teaching of evolution, justified because evolution leads our children away from the path of righteousness and morality, which contradicted the school textbooks and curricula.

    It is surprising to me how it faded into American mythology so quickly. Not sure how many of the ideas we associate with it can withstand scrutiny.

    For example:
    Who won?
    What was the influence on society
    How should we structure our education system?
    Should we pass laws to preserve the faith?
    How accurate is our understanding of the trial?
    How does media affect our understanding of history?
    What was the position of evolution in education as well as Christianity before Scopes, after Scopes?
    Maybe the real importance of the Scopes trial does not lie in the trial itself, but the romance and mythology which enshrouds Scopes? After all it was a trial about teaching evolution using a man who never taught it!

    It definitely put Dayton Tenessee on the map, and eclipsed William Jennings Bryan's previous accomplishments (as well as Clarence Darrow's)
    Wasn't there a similar case in Dover some years ago? I recall watching a documentary when a group of zealous Christians tried to introduce a Creationist "text" book (I use the word advisedly) into the classroom.

    The discrepancy between such nonsensical views as creationism existing in one of the most technologically advanced nations in the world, continues to remain utterly baffling.

    Leave a comment:


  • simplicio
    replied
    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

    As I understand the history, it was a test case brought to challenge the Butler Act and was held in Dayton in order to bring publicity to that small town.
    Yes. The Butler Act itself is interesting, a law against the teaching of evolution, justified because evolution leads our children away from the path of righteousness and morality, which contradicted the school textbooks and curricula.

    It is surprising to me how it faded into American mythology so quickly. Not sure how many of the ideas we associate with it can withstand scrutiny.

    For example:
    Who won?
    What was the influence on society
    How should we structure our education system?
    Should we pass laws to preserve the faith?
    How accurate is our understanding of the trial?
    How does media affect our understanding of history?
    What was the position of evolution in education as well as Christianity before Scopes, after Scopes?
    Maybe the real importance of the Scopes trial does not lie in the trial itself, but the romance and mythology which enshrouds Scopes? After all it was a trial about teaching evolution using a man who never taught it!

    It definitely put Dayton Tenessee on the map, and eclipsed William Jennings Bryan's previous accomplishments (as well as Clarence Darrow's)

    Leave a comment:


  • Hypatia_Alexandria
    replied
    Originally posted by simplicio View Post
    https://www.history.com/news/scopes-monkey-trial-evolution-religion-darrow-bryan

    Interesting how times have changed! (or have they)

    The link has an old video clip
    As I understand the history, it was a test case brought to challenge the Butler Act and was held in Dayton in order to bring publicity to that small town.

    Leave a comment:


  • noemail001
    replied
    Originally posted by simplicio View Post

    No I have not provided a link. However I did present the use honestly. You used that phrase, and used it in the context of accepting science.

    Why should I "prove" anything, unless you deny my account.

    Also, why didn't you respond when I first used it, instead of waiting until the many threads in which you used the phrase fell off?

    I also note that you dropped your accusations on the thread dealing with antisemitism, shifting your focus to something else. Now you choose to revisit it.

    It almost seems as if you are being dishonest. Need more time? maybe you can hide and wait until this thread disappears, then bring it up.
    n>First let's see if you can come up with substantiation for these claims.

    Originally posted by simplicio View Post

    ... Also, why didn't you respond when I first used it, instead of waiting until the many threads in which you used the phrase fell off?...
    n>1) Quote and link us to where I first used the phrase. ___.
    2) Then quote and link us to when you first used that phrase. ___.
    3) Then quote and link us to where I first responded to your use of that phrase. ___.

    Or maybe you prefer to admit what you did?

    This way everyone can evaluate if you are straightforward and transparent when writing this:

    Originally posted by simplicio View Post

    ... I did present the use honestly...
    Originally posted by simplicio View Post

    ... Why should I "prove" anything, unless you deny my account...
    n>Your account? I demand you account for your account. It is obvious here that you have failed miserably to substantiate your claims. That is the account of your failed account. No? Then you prove me wrong by supplying evidence. You like science, right? Evidence, right? OK, then showtime!


    .

    Leave a comment:


  • simplicio
    replied
    Originally posted by noemail001 View Post
    Previously...
    Simplicio: "Considering that you call it despising, dishonoring and disobeying to accept science…”..." and "... You did say despising, dishonoring, and disobeying....."

    Now...
    or for your file: simplicio>"... you call despising, dishoring….. the acceptance of science..."

    n>Too bad you have not shown the quote in context. You made an accusation. I demand you prove your accusation happened the way you obviously love to promote it, given you repeat it, and refuse to retract it and refuse to admit what you are trying to do, and refuse to admit the kind of honest and credible poster you are. Not shocking, given your history. How about you clear up that one case above. Then you can show where you got your other stuff. One by one. OK? Maybe then you might (?????) restore your sterling reputation as that fine example of a "still a Christian" who attacks the Bible (Note spelling!), the Jewish people, Christianity, etc. OK? Need more time? Looks like I have time to deal with your kind of magnificent, honest, brilliant poster.

    .
    No I have not provided a link. However I did present the use honestly. You used that phrase, and used it in the context of accepting science.

    Why should I "prove" anything, unless you deny my account.

    Also, why didn't you respond when I first used it, instead of waiting until the many threads in which you used the phrase fell off?

    I also note that you dropped your accusations on the thread dealing with antisemitism, shifting your focus to something else. Now you choose to revisit it.

    It almost seems as if you are being dishonest. Need more time? maybe you can hide and wait until this thread disappears, then bring it up.

    Leave a comment:


  • noemail001
    replied
    Previously...
    Simplicio: "Considering that you call it despising, dishonoring and disobeying to accept science…”..." and "... You did say despising, dishonoring, and disobeying....."

    Now...
    Originally posted by simplicio View Post

    ... you call despising, dishoring….. the acceptance of science....
    or for your file: simplicio>"... you call despising, dishoring….. the acceptance of science..."

    n>Too bad you have not shown the quote in context. You made an accusation. I demand you prove your accusation happened the way you obviously love to promote it, given you repeat it, and refuse to retract it and refuse to admit what you are trying to do, and refuse to admit the kind of honest and credible poster you are. Not shocking, given your history. How about you clear up that one case above. Then you can show where you got your other stuff. One by one. OK? Maybe then you might (?????) restore your sterling reputation as that fine example of a "still a Christian" who attacks the Bible (Note spelling!), the Jewish people, Christianity, etc. OK? Need more time? Looks like I have time to deal with your kind of magnificent, honest, brilliant poster.

    .

    Leave a comment:


  • simplicio
    replied
    Originally posted by noemail001 View Post

    n>Quote me in context and link everyone to it if it ever existed. That would be honest of you. That way everyone can check on the context and verify you know the first thing you claimed. Or maybe you need more time?

    Be assured, stalling will not work. You are stuck right where you sit. Unless you show everyone that quote and citation or link.

    The only other way is for you to admit what you probably tried. Is that it? Is that what happened? You tried something and it blew up? No? So, the only other respectable choice is the quote in context, then the link or citation.

    The less respectable choices are running away, or ignoring, or deflections (sounds familiar?).
    .
    I am not stalling. You are also forgetting another option, that is for you to explain your use of the term.

    When you posted that term, you used it may times, in many threads. And I pointed those out, that you call despising, dishoring….. the acceptance of science.

    Not surprising at all considering your posting history, that you refused to respond at the time, instead preferring to wait until the threads in which you used them fell away into the depths of CARM history. There are very few posters on CARM who exceed your honesty.

    Leave a comment:


  • noemail001
    replied
    Originally posted by simplicio View Post

    You did say despising, dishonoring, and disobeying...
    n>Quote me in context and link everyone to it if it ever existed. That would be honest of you. That way everyone can check on the context and verify you know the first thing you claimed. Or maybe you need more time?

    Be assured, stalling will not work. You are stuck right where you sit. Unless you show everyone that quote and citation or link.

    The only other way is for you to admit what you probably tried. Is that it? Is that what happened? You tried something and it blew up? No? So, the only other respectable choice is the quote in context, then the link or citation.

    The less respectable choices are running away, or ignoring, or deflections (sounds familiar?).
    .
    Last edited by noemail001; 08-03-18, 08:21 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • simplicio
    replied
    Originally posted by noemail001 View Post
    n>...Now, how about if you link us all to that missing link of yours... the one where you accused me of:
    Simplicio: "Considering that you call it despising, dishonoring and disobeying to accept science…”..."
    If you want the link to your accusation, ask. I know how to show people what I claimed to see. You do too, right?
    OK, sciency one, show your love for science and show us your claimed observation of factual evidence... as in your accusation above.



    n>Maybe I've given you enough time to find the link to what you accused me of "... calling..."? Need more time?
    .
    You did say despising, dishonoring, and disobeying.. . . . . .

    But what prompts those labels from you?

    You could be actually honest and explain yourself.

    Leave a comment:


  • noemail001
    replied
    n>...Now, how about if you link us all to that missing link of yours... the one where you accused me of:
    Simplicio: "Considering that you call it despising, dishonoring and disobeying to accept science…”..."
    If you want the link to your accusation, ask. I know how to show people what I claimed to see. You do too, right?
    OK, sciency one, show your love for science and show us your claimed observation of factual evidence... as in your accusation above.

    Originally posted by simplicio View Post

    Maybe ...
    n>Maybe I've given you enough time to find the link to what you accused me of "... calling..."? Need more time?
    .

    Leave a comment:

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