Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

The causation of Christianity born from Ancient Near Eastern religious ideologies.

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • The causation of Christianity born from Ancient Near Eastern religious ideologies.


    The timeline of Christianity can nearly be traced to its roots in the ancient "Israelite" tribal occultist belief traditions, while it is known that Christian folklore has evolved over time, it's safe to say that
    Christianity with the advent of the New Testament has implicitly strayed from its cultural roots, but not from widely accepted belief customs that stray from cultural and societal views.

    Culturally speaking the Jewish God is among other deities or for the ancient Israelite's their God that they claim is their supreme deity in their pantheon. Many non-Jewish authors were familiar with the Jewish divine name IAO and at times discussed it, Philo of Byblos:

    "There has been and is much disagreement among the theologians about the God honored among the Hebrews. The Roman Varro says, in discussing him, that among the Chaldeans in their mysteries he is called IAO and this means intelligible light in the Phoenician language as Herennius says"

    The Jewish God is discussed by other classical writers, Strabo of Amesia recounted the origins of Jewish religion, the teachings of Moses, which included Jewish aniconism. According to Strabo God is this one thing alone that encompasses us all and encompasses land and sea. Tacitus notes that Jewish monotheism was known as the Jewish God more generally. More ever, the Jewish God figured in cases of non-Jewish translate-ability with Dionysius or Zeus or Jupiter. In the Greco-Roman context these instances occasional little surprise. Before reviewing some of the more interesting cases we should take warning, that seeing in every instance of IAO and attestation of the Jewish divine name. In accordance with this cautionary note, we will limit our discussion to what seem to be clear uses of the Jewish divine name and context involving translate ability. In some instances of translate ability IAO is construed as the highest God or supreme God of gods. So, what we see here is a comparison of gods from different cultures such as Greco-Roman and Greek and how they are the supreme God, while the Jewish God takes on the same form in the Jewish pantheon.

    Many magical texts, both Greek and demotic, deploy a translate ability involving IAO. However, we are not speaking only of translate-ability in the narrow sense. This also shows the Jewish divine name playing a magical role alongside other deities and their names. In this way, the Jewish God joins an international Congress of deities recognized for their power. It is a quality of power that is recognized as the basis for deities and their names functioning either together or individually within magical texts.

    An example of these magical texts invokes the Jewish God into forms often the more common Greek IAO, we can see this in Leviticus 2-5 at 3:12 and 4:27, but sometimes with the rarer demotic IAHO, this name stands much closer to Yahu/Yah. In addition to these forms of divine name we see the title Adonai. Occasionally the Jewish divine names serve as part of a larger concept of divinity. Example, a prayer, which at the time is also seen as a spell, contains the following:

    "The one having appeared before the universe in accordance with your eternal nature, the untiring one, the one who... I call upon you, Lord Almighty, the unknown one, the pure soul, I, the one.... Having been sanctified. Be merciful to me, O Zeus – IAO – Zen-Helios".

    In this instance, IAO is part of a long combination or fusion and is infused with a name consisting amongst important deities, this issuing in a single super deity. Another example comes from a love spell attested in a great apparatus in the Paris bibliotheque. This ritual is designed to bind the object of the speaker’s desire to himself. In one component of the ritual, the names of various deities are to be written on different parts of a magical female figuring. This procedure reflects a correlation and hierarchy between deities and body parts, with IAO assigned the head, Ammon the face, Thoth the heart and derivatives of the Semitic Melech King, which would be the arms and hands.

    These two magical text exhibit different sides of magical praxis using the name of IAO in tandem with different major deities: the invocation of a long combination name and magical figurine. These magical uses are not distant from some models of divinity known from earlier periods in the ancient near East, such as various gods construed as the different body parts of Marduk or with the combination of Amun-Ra in the late Bronze Age.

    There are of course differences when in the earlier usages derived from national religion and politics, while in the context for these two Greco-Roman texts is individual and personal. What is particularly distinctive for this investigation is at the deities and Greco-Roman combinations of deities come from different regions in the Mediterranean. It is cross-cultural in character in contrast with the one God representation of Amun-Ra in the late Bronze Age, or Marduk, and assur or Yahweh in the iron age.

    From this magical text, a cultural observation is made. This document, with its combination of Egyptian gods with the Jewish IAO, points to Alexandrian Judaism as one conduit through which the name of the Jewish deity passed into broader Greco-Roman magical discourse. This view would comport with evidence known from the third century A.D. Egyptian magical text from Egypt known as the Leiden Papyrus. This demotic magical book contains numerous spells with the Jewish God under his name Yaho. This form of divine name stands closer to its original Hebrew form then Greek IAO. At the same time this Tech show signs of Greek influence on the Jewish elements they can be identified in it. For example, there is the form of divine name IAO, y-o, in the same papyrus, which reflects the influence of Greek IAO. In addition, one magical text in this papyrus uses the Greek form of the name Moses, and calling on a series of figures, and makes the following request:

    "Reveal yourself to me here today in the fashion of the revelation to Moses which you made upon the mountain, before whom you yourself created darkness and light."

    The Jewish elements in these Egyptian magical text point to Alexandria as their source, a context reflected also in the letter of Aristeas. This document was designed to explain the origins of the Septuagint translation in Alexandria. In line 140 of the text, the speaker attributes to Egyptian priest recognition of Jews as men of God. Much of this implies or shows that the Egyptians would've had influence upon the Jews, as we see before the Jewish God is Intertextually rooted in the Egyptian Gods. From this we can see that the ancient Israelite's participated in polytheistic practices.

    Even the idea of idol worship is seen in Biblical Christian circles, in Exodus 32:24 we see "gold" being cast into a fire to make a calf. I imply emphasis on "gold" being that during the times of the ancient Egyptians about 2000 BCE gold used by the Egyptians generally contains silver, often in substantial amounts, and it appears that for most of Egypt’s history gold was not refined to increase its purity. The color of a metal is affected by its composition gradations in hue that range between the bright yellow of a central boss that once embellished a vessel dating to the Third Intermediate Period for example. Hence Egyptian earrings would reflect this, also the gold used by the Egyptians and specifically Egyptian goldsmiths had added a significant amount of copper to a natural gold-silver alloy to attain a reddish hue. Gold is generally found in locations where there is a lot of quartz. So of course, the Egyptians who mined gold would have had this kind of access.

    The golden calf in the biblical texts is not necessarily a calf; it is fashioned to be a lunar bull or a young bull. As the Egyptians would have worshiped the living animal, and not an image of it. also, the bull is the symbol of divinity only among settled agriculturists, and not among nomads such as the Israelites then were. Among the Hebrews, as among the other agricultural Semites, the bull was associated with a deity in a sacred character as the Ox, more associated with Yahweh or Yahweh. However, the word Yahweh related in those times to Yahwistic cults and was banned.

    Gold like any other inanimate object is only useful when applied to social or cultural beliefs, Lapis Lazuli for example is a precious stone during early Mesopotamian times. The same occultist ideologies apply to Christian symbology when applied to its traditional mythologies, even the idea of powerful wands and staffs go right back in time to antiquity. The Biblical staff of Moses (Hebrew: מַטֶּה‎ matteh, translated "rod" in the King James) was used to produce water from a rock, was transformed into a snake and back, and was used at the parting of the Red Sea. In many early Christian depictions of Jesus, specifically related to the raising of Lazarus from the dead, he is shown to use a wand / rod. The rod being a symbol of authority in many cultures, linking right back to the very idea of divine Kingship we find at the heart of the Sumerian faith tradition. Often made of sacred cedar wood which links the divine and human realms. Sacred trees, their roots deep into the ground stretching down to the Netherworld, while their branches reach up to the Heavens above.

    Earlier in this blog I noted that "the Jewish God is among other deities or for the ancient Israelite's their God that they claim is their supreme deity in their pantheon," this is generally true however, the consensus would be that the Israelite's are not Israelite's, they arrive out of Canaan and long before that the myth hero patriarch Abraham exist Ur (Mesopotamia) and enters into Canaan.

    Canaanite people are referred to in the Bible, and so the land of Canaan is identifiable as the southern portion of Syria-Palestine (the area in which the Biblical narratives concerning the Canaanites are set). The Egyptians also referred to Canaan during the Late Bronze Age, and so Canaanites are the groups that they encounter. Exactly who the Canaanites where is a matter of some debate—were they a distinct group, or was the term used to describe various cultural groups in the area? Regardless, the terms Canaan and Canaanite eventually drop out of use when new powers consume the area. The Levant is a word which describes the whole Syro-Palestinian region as being eastern land. The first well-attested use of the word Israel comes from an Egyptian source, dating to the reign after Ramesses II (with whom our course ends) known as the Merneptah Stela (also known as the Israel Stela). during a mission to Canaan, King Merneptah claims to have destroyed Israel, but at this time is referring to a group of people rather than a state. The state of Israel goes on to develop in the early Iron Age, while states such as Egypt are declining in power. Eventually, the kingdom divides into Israel and Judah. These lands occupy much of the territory formerly known as Canaan.

    If the Israelite's worshiped Yahweh, then Yahweh is a Canaanite deity glorified in Christian folklore and exemplified with attributes to the fable hero Jesus.



  • #2
    Originally posted by Shamash View Post
    The timeline of Christianity can nearly be traced to its roots in the ancient "Israelite" tribal occultist belief traditions, while it is known that Christian folklore has evolved over time, it's safe to say that
    Christianity with the advent of the New Testament has implicitly strayed from its cultural roots, but not from widely accepted belief customs that stray from cultural and societal views.

    Culturally speaking the Jewish God is among other deities or for the ancient Israelite's their God that they claim is their supreme deity in their pantheon. Many non-Jewish authors were familiar with the Jewish divine name IAO and at times discussed it, Philo of Byblos:

    "There has been and is much disagreement among the theologians about the God honored among the Hebrews. The Roman Varro says, in discussing him, that among the Chaldeans in their mysteries he is called IAO and this means intelligible light in the Phoenician language as Herennius says"

    The Jewish God is discussed by other classical writers, Strabo of Amesia recounted the origins of Jewish religion, the teachings of Moses, which included Jewish aniconism. According to Strabo God is this one thing alone that encompasses us all and encompasses land and sea. Tacitus notes that Jewish monotheism was known as the Jewish God more generally. More ever, the Jewish God figured in cases of non-Jewish translate-ability with Dionysius or Zeus or Jupiter. In the Greco-Roman context these instances occasional little surprise. Before reviewing some of the more interesting cases we should take warning, that seeing in every instance of IAO and attestation of the Jewish divine name. In accordance with this cautionary note, we will limit our discussion to what seem to be clear uses of the Jewish divine name and context involving translate ability. In some instances of translate ability IAO is construed as the highest God or supreme God of gods. So, what we see here is a comparison of gods from different cultures such as Greco-Roman and Greek and how they are the supreme God, while the Jewish God takes on the same form in the Jewish pantheon.

    Many magical texts, both Greek and demotic, deploy a translate ability involving IAO. However, we are not speaking only of translate-ability in the narrow sense. This also shows the Jewish divine name playing a magical role alongside other deities and their names. In this way, the Jewish God joins an international Congress of deities recognized for their power. It is a quality of power that is recognized as the basis for deities and their names functioning either together or individually within magical texts.

    An example of these magical texts invokes the Jewish God into forms often the more common Greek IAO, we can see this in Leviticus 2-5 at 3:12 and 4:27, but sometimes with the rarer demotic IAHO, this name stands much closer to Yahu/Yah. In addition to these forms of divine name we see the title Adonai. Occasionally the Jewish divine names serve as part of a larger concept of divinity. Example, a prayer, which at the time is also seen as a spell, contains the following:

    "The one having appeared before the universe in accordance with your eternal nature, the untiring one, the one who... I call upon you, Lord Almighty, the unknown one, the pure soul, I, the one.... Having been sanctified. Be merciful to me, O Zeus – IAO – Zen-Helios".

    In this instance, IAO is part of a long combination or fusion and is infused with a name consisting amongst important deities, this issuing in a single super deity. Another example comes from a love spell attested in a great apparatus in the Paris bibliotheque. This ritual is designed to bind the object of the speaker’s desire to himself. In one component of the ritual, the names of various deities are to be written on different parts of a magical female figuring. This procedure reflects a correlation and hierarchy between deities and body parts, with IAO assigned the head, Ammon the face, Thoth the heart and derivatives of the Semitic Melech King, which would be the arms and hands.

    These two magical text exhibit different sides of magical praxis using the name of IAO in tandem with different major deities: the invocation of a long combination name and magical figurine. These magical uses are not distant from some models of divinity known from earlier periods in the ancient near East, such as various gods construed as the different body parts of Marduk or with the combination of Amun-Ra in the late Bronze Age.

    There are of course differences when in the earlier usages derived from national religion and politics, while in the context for these two Greco-Roman texts is individual and personal. What is particularly distinctive for this investigation is at the deities and Greco-Roman combinations of deities come from different regions in the Mediterranean. It is cross-cultural in character in contrast with the one God representation of Amun-Ra in the late Bronze Age, or Marduk, and assur or Yahweh in the iron age.

    From this magical text, a cultural observation is made. This document, with its combination of Egyptian gods with the Jewish IAO, points to Alexandrian Judaism as one conduit through which the name of the Jewish deity passed into broader Greco-Roman magical discourse. This view would comport with evidence known from the third century A.D. Egyptian magical text from Egypt known as the Leiden Papyrus. This demotic magical book contains numerous spells with the Jewish God under his name Yaho. This form of divine name stands closer to its original Hebrew form then Greek IAO. At the same time this Tech show signs of Greek influence on the Jewish elements they can be identified in it. For example, there is the form of divine name IAO, y-o, in the same papyrus, which reflects the influence of Greek IAO. In addition, one magical text in this papyrus uses the Greek form of the name Moses, and calling on a series of figures, and makes the following request:

    "Reveal yourself to me here today in the fashion of the revelation to Moses which you made upon the mountain, before whom you yourself created darkness and light."

    The Jewish elements in these Egyptian magical text point to Alexandria as their source, a context reflected also in the letter of Aristeas. This document was designed to explain the origins of the Septuagint translation in Alexandria. In line 140 of the text, the speaker attributes to Egyptian priest recognition of Jews as men of God. Much of this implies or shows that the Egyptians would've had influence upon the Jews, as we see before the Jewish God is Intertextually rooted in the Egyptian Gods. From this we can see that the ancient Israelite's participated in polytheistic practices.

    Even the idea of idol worship is seen in Biblical Christian circles, in Exodus 32:24 we see "gold" being cast into a fire to make a calf. I imply emphasis on "gold" being that during the times of the ancient Egyptians about 2000 BCE gold used by the Egyptians generally contains silver, often in substantial amounts, and it appears that for most of Egypt’s history gold was not refined to increase its purity. The color of a metal is affected by its composition gradations in hue that range between the bright yellow of a central boss that once embellished a vessel dating to the Third Intermediate Period for example. Hence Egyptian earrings would reflect this, also the gold used by the Egyptians and specifically Egyptian goldsmiths had added a significant amount of copper to a natural gold-silver alloy to attain a reddish hue. Gold is generally found in locations where there is a lot of quartz. So of course, the Egyptians who mined gold would have had this kind of access.

    The golden calf in the biblical texts is not necessarily a calf; it is fashioned to be a lunar bull or a young bull. As the Egyptians would have worshiped the living animal, and not an image of it. also, the bull is the symbol of divinity only among settled agriculturists, and not among nomads such as the Israelites then were. Among the Hebrews, as among the other agricultural Semites, the bull was associated with a deity in a sacred character as the Ox, more associated with Yahweh or Yahweh. However, the word Yahweh related in those times to Yahwistic cults and was banned.

    Gold like any other inanimate object is only useful when applied to social or cultural beliefs, Lapis Lazuli for example is a precious stone during early Mesopotamian times. The same occultist ideologies apply to Christian symbology when applied to its traditional mythologies, even the idea of powerful wands and staffs go right back in time to antiquity. The Biblical staff of Moses (Hebrew: מַטֶּה‎ matteh, translated "rod" in the King James) was used to produce water from a rock, was transformed into a snake and back, and was used at the parting of the Red Sea. In many early Christian depictions of Jesus, specifically related to the raising of Lazarus from the dead, he is shown to use a wand / rod. The rod being a symbol of authority in many cultures, linking right back to the very idea of divine Kingship we find at the heart of the Sumerian faith tradition. Often made of sacred cedar wood which links the divine and human realms. Sacred trees, their roots deep into the ground stretching down to the Netherworld, while their branches reach up to the Heavens above.

    Earlier in this blog I noted that "the Jewish God is among other deities or for the ancient Israelite's their God that they claim is their supreme deity in their pantheon," this is generally true however, the consensus would be that the Israelite's are not Israelite's, they arrive out of Canaan and long before that the myth hero patriarch Abraham exist Ur (Mesopotamia) and enters into Canaan.

    Canaanite people are referred to in the Bible, and so the land of Canaan is identifiable as the southern portion of Syria-Palestine (the area in which the Biblical narratives concerning the Canaanites are set). The Egyptians also referred to Canaan during the Late Bronze Age, and so Canaanites are the groups that they encounter. Exactly who the Canaanites where is a matter of some debate—were they a distinct group, or was the term used to describe various cultural groups in the area? Regardless, the terms Canaan and Canaanite eventually drop out of use when new powers consume the area. The Levant is a word which describes the whole Syro-Palestinian region as being eastern land. The first well-attested use of the word Israel comes from an Egyptian source, dating to the reign after Ramesses II (with whom our course ends) known as the Merneptah Stela (also known as the Israel Stela). during a mission to Canaan, King Merneptah claims to have destroyed Israel, but at this time is referring to a group of people rather than a state. The state of Israel goes on to develop in the early Iron Age, while states such as Egypt are declining in power. Eventually, the kingdom divides into Israel and Judah. These lands occupy much of the territory formerly known as Canaan.

    If the Israelite's worshiped Yahweh, then Yahweh is a Canaanite deity glorified in Christian folklore and exemplified with attributes to the fable hero Jesus.

    That's quite a broad statement that you finish with, without showing any correlation between it and the content of your post - and - without substantiating that Jesus is a "fable hero" or that Christianity is "folklore".

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Bonlee View Post

      That's quite a broad statement that you finish with, without showing any correlation between it and the content of your post - and - .
      The idea that Abraham left Ur and entered into Canaan is seen in Biblical literature. When Abraham (if he did exist) leaves Ur he takes with him his personal God, not necessarily Yahweh. It's clearly seen because Melchizedek is a Canaanite priest, and engages in rituals with Abraham, but no Canaanite priest is ever a monotheist, all Canaanite priests are Polytheistic. What happens is that each city-state has their own God that is representational of their city-state. So when Abraham and Melchizedek do give homage to the one true God, it's a city-state God either from Ur or Canaan. So when Abraham goes into Canaan it isn't until Abraham leaves Canaan that we see the proto Israelite's, and that is IF the Israelite's actually existed, they would be actually Mesopotamian's, but it is safe to say that the Hebrew language of today is essentially defunct Canaanite language, after all even Phoenician is Semitic tongue as well Canaanite is Semitic based tongue and so is Hebrew, all these languages are in the same family. Most likely the Pentateuch was penned by Yahwehist's and Yahweh is a God from Canaan, not an Israelite concept per se. This that part in a nutshell, and the Israelite's weren't necessarily monotheistic until after Babylonian captivity. The Bible itself has a timeline, feel free to look it over.

      Originally posted by Bonlee View Post
      without substantiating that Jesus is a "fable hero" or that Christianity is "folklore".
      In the context of mythologies concerning the myth hero Jesus, in a religious sense the term "myth" at least academically concerning religious discussion alludes to factual events that surround a certain set of events seen as mythologies.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Shamash View Post


        Bonlee: That's quite a broad statement that you finish with, without showing any correlation between it and the content of your post - and - without substantiating that Jesus is a "fable hero" or that Christianity is "folklore".

        Shamash:The idea that Abraham left Ur and entered into Canaan is seen in Biblical literature. When Abraham (if he did exist) leaves Ur he takes with him his personal God, not necessarily Yahweh. It's clearly seen because Melchizedek is a Canaanite priest, and engages in rituals with Abraham, but no Canaanite priest is ever a monotheist, all Canaanite priests are Polytheistic. What happens is that each city-state has their own God that is representational of their city-state. So when Abraham and Melchizedek do give homage to the one true God, it's a city-state God either from Ur or Canaan. So when Abraham goes into Canaan it isn't until Abraham leaves Canaan that we see the proto Israelite's, and that is IF the Israelite's actually existed, they would be actually Mesopotamian's, but it is safe to say that the Hebrew language of today is essentially defunct Canaanite language, after all even Phoenician is Semitic tongue as well Canaanite is Semitic based tongue and so is Hebrew, all these languages are in the same family. Most likely the Pentateuch was penned by Yahwehist's and Yahweh is a God from Canaan, not an Israelite concept per se. This that part in a nutshell, and the Israelite's weren't necessarily monotheistic until after Babylonian captivity.
        Irrelevant to what I posted.


        The Bible itself has a timeline, feel free to look it over.
        I have and continue to do so, although not in a strictly academic way, more in the spiritual belief that it is indeed the inspired word of God and when read with the guidance of the Holy Spirit it becomes more than an academic book. You really should try it that way, a whole new perspective.


        In the context of mythologies concerning the myth hero Jesus, in a religious sense the term "myth" at least academically concerning religious discussion alludes to factual events that surround a certain set of events seen as mythologies.
        Doesn’t matter how you ‘academically’ attempt to explain your terminology away, the statement itself remains unsubstantiated; just a throw away statement at the end of a discourse, the content of which has no correlation to the statement itself and its claims, leaving the impression of a hasty, sloppy endeavour on your part.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Bonlee View Post

          Irrelevant to what I posted.
          Not really irrelevant, as I am clarifying.


          Originally posted by Bonlee View Post
          I have and continue to do so, although not in a strictly academic way, more in the spiritual belief that it is indeed the inspired word of God and when read with the guidance of the Holy Spirit it becomes more than an academic book. You really should try it that way, a whole new perspective.
          While I understand that you look over the Bible in a spiritual manner, Biblical mythologies remain what they are. No different than other Ancient Near Eastern texts. Christianity is still within the walls of the "Abrahamic" belief tradtions which include Judaism and Muslim faith traditions, just because the Biblical texts expand beyond the Old Testament (Shekinah) doesn't mean that Christianity has anymore weight than the other two beliefs.




          Originally posted by Bonlee View Post
          Doesn’t matter how you ‘academically’ attempt to explain your terminology away, the statement itself remains unsubstantiated; just a throw away statement at the end of a discourse, the content of which has no correlation to the statement itself and its claims, leaving the impression of a hasty, sloppy endeavour on your part.
          I'm not stating that Jesus didn't exist, I'm stating that he is no different than his earlier cohort Yahweh who is essentially Baal.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Shamash View Post
            Not really irrelevant, as I am clarifying.
            Extremely irrelevant, as it didn't clarify or address what I posted.


            While I understand that you look over the Bible in a spiritual manner, Biblical mythologies remain what they are. No different than other Ancient Near Eastern texts. Christianity is still within the walls of the "Abrahamic" belief tradtions which include Judaism and Muslim faith traditions, just because the Biblical texts expand beyond the Old Testament (Shekinah) doesn't mean that Christianity has anymore weight than the other two beliefs.
            As an academic and from your secular perspective, I understand how you would arrive at this conclusion. That is why I suggested another way of studying it, a way that would open your horizons and clear up all those “ifs” and uncertainties that you attempt to fill in with your own limited, secular understanding.


            I'm not stating that Jesus didn't exist, I'm stating that he is no different than his earlier cohort Yahweh who is essentially Baal.
            I understand what you are stating and that is because you don’t know Him, due to your lack of spiritual insight. You are relying on your secular, academic approach as you read through the Bible, which is an exercise in futility, as the Bible was never meant for that purpose.


            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Bonlee View Post

              Extremely irrelevant, as it didn't clarify or address what I posted.
              You made a statement that what I was said was too broad, so I clarified.

              Originally posted by Bonlee View Post
              As an academic and from your secular perspective, I understand how you would arrive at this conclusion. That is why I suggested another way of studying it, a way that would open your horizons and clear up all those “ifs” and uncertainties that you attempt to fill in with your own limited, secular understanding.
              I approach it as an Academic, correct. I guess by secular you mean in a non spiritual way, incorrect.

              I am a polytheist and I worship the Gods of Sumer who were adopted into Biblical myths, Canaanite myths, Babylonian myths, and so on. .

              Your God Yahweh is from Canaan, he is equated to Baal and like all the other storm Gods such as Ishkur has the same attributes. Even Jesus in Luke 8:25 exhibits the same attributes.


              Originally posted by Bonlee View Post
              I understand what you are stating and that is because you don’t know Him, due to your lack of spiritual insight. You are relying on your secular, academic approach as you read through the Bible, which is an exercise in futility, as the Bible was never meant for that purpose.
              Then by this point you ignore all the events occuring around certain times in the Bible, because you attempt to attribute spirtualism to a collection of writings (the Bible) copied from polytheistic Cuneiform.

              For example the purity rites in the Bible performed by Aaron are exactly the same type practiced in earlier Mesopotamia to rid a town of sin.





              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Shamash View Post
                You made a statement that what I was said was too broad, so I clarified.
                No you didn't.

                I approach it as an Academic, correct. I guess by secular you mean in a non spiritual way, incorrect.
                I am a polytheist and I worship the Gods of Sumer who were adopted into Biblical myths, Canaanite myths, Babylonian myths, and so on.
                Your God Yahweh is from Canaan, he is equated to Baal and like all the other storm Gods such as Ishkur has the same attributes. Even Jesus in Luke 8:25 exhibits the same attributes.
                With this information, I will repeat what I stated previously, with a few words altered to better apply it to your situation: I understand what you are stating and that is because you don’t know Him, due to your lack of spiritual insight.(Holy Spirit) You are relying on your 'spirituality' (not the Holy Spirit) and your academic approach as you read through the Bible, which is an exercise in futility, as the Bible was never meant for that purpose or to be understood by those means.

                There are no Biblical myths.
                The fact that the Bible records that there were Canaanite myths, Babylonian myths, and so on at particular times, and that the Israelites participated, only exemplifies the difference between those myths and the One true God.

                http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Baal

                Thus it is quite plausible that in the minds of many Israelites the Lord Baal and the Lord Yahweh were two names for the same deity, an awesome God who thundered from on high and yet lovingly blessed them with rain to bring fertility and prosperity.

                It is difficult to know to what extent the false worship so strongly condemned by the prophets may be merely the wrongful worship of Yahweh, but characterized as worship of Baal. For example, Jeremiah persistently reminds his hearers that various evil practices are something that "I never commanded, nor did it ever enter my mind" (Jer. 7:31; 19:5; 32;35). The implication seems to be that Jeremiah's audiences believed these practices to be something which God wanted. In fact, the victorious judge Jephthah is recorded as offering his own daughter as a burnt sacrifice—a practice later condemned by Jeremiah—not to a Canaanite deity, but to Yahweh himself (Judges 11).


                Regardless of how the people generally conceived of the relationship between Yahweh and Baal, the later Biblical prophets clearly sought to draw the distinction as starkly as possible. The author of Kings dramatizes the distinction by reporting the words of Elijah to those assembled on Mount Carmel: "How long will you waver between two opinions? If the Lord is God, follow him; but if Baal is God, follow him" (1 Kings 18:21). The story continues with the prophets of Baal failing almost comically, while Elijah's God sends fire from heaven, and the people respond by killing the prophets of Baal. The lesson which the author intends for the reader could not be more clear.

                The prophet Hosea put the issue more subtly when he declared:
                I will allure her [Israel] and bring her into the wilderness, and I will speak tenderly and to her heart…. And it shall be in that day, says the Lord, that you will call Me 'Ishi' [my Husband], and you shall no more call Me 'Baali' [my Lord/Baal]. For I will take away the names of the baalim out of her mouth, and they shall no more be mentioned or seriously remembered by their name (Hosea 2:14-17).
                Then by this point you ignore all the events occuring around certain times in the Bible, because you attempt to attribute spirtualism to a collection of writings (the Bible) copied from polytheistic Cuneiform.
                No. That is what you wish that I was doing. I have never indicated that I ignore all the events occurring around certain times in the Bible, the spiritual insight from the Holy Spirit enables me to understand the progression from the Israelites getting caught up in the practices and worships of other gods, to finally being able to acknowledge and attempt to follow the One true God. My referring to your lack of spiritual insight, has nothing to do with "spiritualism", but with the Holy Spirit Himself.


                For example the purity rites in the Bible performed by Aaron are exactly the same type practiced in earlier Mesopotamia to rid a town of sin.
                Except that the purity rites for Aaron that are performed in the Bible, were instituted specifically by God (the I AM) and not by the Mesopotamian gods.






                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Bonlee View Post

                  No you didn't.
                  Either way I clarified.


                  Originally posted by Bonlee View Post
                  With this information, I will repeat what I stated previously, with a few words altered to better apply it to your situation: I understand what you are stating and that is because you don’t know Him, due to your lack of spiritual insight.(Holy Spirit) You are relying on your 'spirituality' (not the Holy Spirit) and your academic approach as you read through the Bible, which is an exercise in futility, as the Bible was never meant for that purpose or to be understood by those means.
                  First off, no I am not even close to interested in worshiping the Christian version of "Him" "I Am" "Jesus" "God" and I am familiar with Christian doctrine. Sorry, but the Bible was directed by Sectarian Monotheists who used Church authority to dictate their version of religious aspects to specific target audiences.
                  Originally posted by Bonlee View Post
                  There are no Biblical myths.
                  The fact that the Bible records that there were Canaanite myths, Babylonian myths, and so on at particular times, and that the Israelites participated, only exemplifies the difference between those myths and the One true God.
                  This is how I describe "myths" when discussing mythology, it's important to define terms. The myths discussed are for the most part religious narratives that transcend the possibilities of common experience and that express any given culture's literal or metaphorical understanding of various aspects of reality. In this sense myths have to do with the relation of the culture, or of human beings in general, to the unknown in the cosmos. No, the Bible does not record Canaanite or Babylonian myths, there are such things as cross pollination which happens in the texts.
                  Originally posted by Bonlee;n5830051
                  [URL
                  http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Baal[/URL]

                  Thus it is quite plausible that in the minds of many Israelites the Lord Baal and the Lord Yahweh were two names for the same deity, an awesome God who thundered from on high and yet lovingly blessed them with rain to bring fertility and prosperity.

                  It is difficult to know to what extent the false worship so strongly condemned by the prophets may be merely the wrongful worship of Yahweh, but characterized as worship of Baal. For example, Jeremiah persistently reminds his hearers that various evil practices are something that "I never commanded, nor did it ever enter my mind" (Jer. 7:31; 19:5; 32;35). The implication seems to be that Jeremiah's audiences believed these practices to be something which God wanted. In fact, the victorious judge Jephthah is recorded as offering his own daughter as a burnt sacrifice—a practice later condemned by Jeremiah—not to a Canaanite deity, but to Yahweh himself (Judges 11).


                  Regardless of how the people generally conceived of the relationship between Yahweh and Baal, the later Biblical prophets clearly sought to draw the distinction as starkly as possible. The author of Kings dramatizes the distinction by reporting the words of Elijah to those assembled on Mount Carmel: "How long will you waver between two opinions? If the Lord is God, follow him; but if Baal is God, follow him" (1 Kings 18:21). The story continues with the prophets of Baal failing almost comically, while Elijah's God sends fire from heaven, and the people respond by killing the prophets of Baal. The lesson which the author intends for the reader could not be more clear.

                  The prophet Hosea put the issue more subtly when he declared:
                  I will allure her [Israel] and bring her into the wilderness, and I will speak tenderly and to her heart…. And it shall be in that day, says the Lord, that you will call Me 'Ishi' [my Husband], and you shall no more call Me 'Baali' [my Lord/Baal]. For I will take away the names of the baalim out of her mouth, and they shall no more be mentioned or seriously remembered by their name (Hosea 2:14-17).
                  So the Encylopedia posting is general knowledge, do not know why you would post that? Rather odd. Proto Israelite's according to the same link you shared "in primitive times the Israelites shared many of the religious beliefs of their Canaanite neighbors, as the monotheistic idea developed, Baal became the chief villain of Israelite religion." Yahweh begins in Canaan, not anywhere else. Much later on the Israelite's attempt to make distinction between Yahweh and Baal, but as always the Isarelite's end up being sub structured as polytheistic. They switch on and off from Polytheism and Monotheism, finally after Babylonian captivity they become Monotheistic. In fact you spell it out for me:

                  The prophet Hosea put the issue more subtly when he declared: I will allure her [Israel] and bring her into the wilderness, and I will speak tenderly and to her heart…. And it shall be in that day, says the Lord, that you will call Me 'Ishi' [my Husband], and you shall no more call Me 'Baali' [my Lord/Baal]. For I will take away the names of the baalim out of her mouth, and they shall no more be mentioned or seriously remembered by their name (Hosea 2:14-17).

                  Hosea 2:16 "And it shall be in that day, says the Lord, that you will call Me 'Ishi' [my Husband], and you shall no more call Me 'Baali' [my Lord/Baal]."

                  Yahweh was always Baal, to the Israelite's a distinction is being made that Yahweh no longer wants to be called Baal but Husband (Ishi), in this Yahweh isn't denying he is Baal, he instead wants to be called Husband.

                  One element in Baal’s meteorological entourage in KTU 1.5 V 6-11.342 Psalm 77:19 refers to the wheels in Yahweh’s storm theophany, which presumes a divine war chariot. Psalm 18 (2 Sam. 22):11 presents Yahweh riding on the wind surrounded by storm clouds. This image forms the basis for the description of the divine chariot in Ezekiel 1 and 10. Psalm 65:12 (E 11) likewise presupposes the storm-chariot image: “You crown your bounteous year, and your tracks drip with fatness.” Similarly, Yahweh’s storm chariot is the image presumed by Habakkuk 3:8 and 15:

                  Was your wrath against the rivers, O Yahweh? Was your anger against the rivers, or your indignation against the sea, when you rode upon your horses, upon your chariot of victory? You trampled the sea with your horses, the surging of the mighty waters.

                  The description of Yahweh’s horses fits into the larger context of the storm theophany directed against the cosmic enemies, Sea and River. (The horses in this verse are unrelated to the horses dedicated to the sun in 2 Kings 23:11, unless there was a coalescence of the chariot imagery of the storm and the sun ) The motif of chariot-riding storm-god with his divine entourage extends in Israelite tradition to the divine armies of Yahweh riding on chariots with horses (2 Kings 2:11; 6:17). Other features originally attributed to Baal also accrued to Yahweh. Albright and other scholars 344 have argued the epithet ‘ly, “the Most High,” belonging to Baal in the Ugaritic texts (KTU 1.16 III 6, 8; cf. RS 18.22.4’), appears as a title of Yahweh in 1 Samuel 2:10, 2 Samuel 23:1, Psalms 18 (2 Sam. 22):14 and 68:6, 30, 35 (cf. Dan. 3:26, 32; 4:14, 21, 22, 29, 31; 5:18, 21; 7:25), in the biblical hypocoristicon ‘ē/î, the name of the priest of Shiloh,345 and in Hebrew inscriptional personal names yhw‘ly, “Yahu is Most High,” yw‘ly, “Yaw is Most High,” ̔lyhw, “Most High is Yahu,” and ‘lyw, “Most High is Yaw.”346 The bull iconography that Jeroboam I sponsored in Dan and Bethel (1 Kings 12:28-31) has been attributed to the influence of Baal in the northern kingdom. This imagery represented an old northern tradition of divine iconography for Yahweh used probably as a rival symbol to the traditional royal iconography of the cherubim of the Jerusalem temple.347 The old northern tradition of bull iconography for Yahweh is reflected in the name ‘glyw, which may be translated, “Young bull is Yaw,” in Samaria ostracon 41:1.348 The ca. twelfth-century bull figurine discovered at a site in the hill country of Ephraim and the young bull depicted on the tenth-century Taanach stand likewise involve the iconography of a god, either Yahweh or Baal. 349 Newer discoveries have yielded iconography of a deity on a bull on a ninth-century plaque from Dan and an eighth-century stele from Bethsaid.

                  Originally posted by Bonlee View Post
                  No. That is what you wish that I was doing. I have never indicated that I ignore all the events occurring around certain times in the Bible, the spiritual insight from the Holy Spirit enables me to understand the progression from the Israelites getting caught up in the practices and worships of other gods, to finally being able to acknowledge and attempt to follow the One true God. My referring to your lack of spiritual insight, has nothing to do with "spiritualism", but with the Holy Spirit Himself.
                  Since we aren't ignorning events surrounding Biblical mythologies, the immediate neighbors of Israel that emerged by the early first millennium exhibit ten or fewer deities, according to the meager data.271 At first glance, Ammon does not appear to reflect a relatively small group of deities. Based on the theophoric elements in proper names, there are about ten Ammonite deities: ’b, ’dn, ’l, ’nrt, bl, hm, mlk, nny, ’m and šmš. Some of these elements, such as ’b and ’dn, are presumably titles, however. Biblical sources presuppose that mlk or Milkom was the national Ammonite god (1 Kings 11:5, 33; Jer. 49:1, 3; cf. 2 Sam. 12:30; 1 Chron. 20:2; Zeph. 1:5). Ammonite proper names show a preponderance of the theophoric element *‘l, which might suggest a close relationship between El and Milkom in Ammonite religion. Perhaps the two were identified, like El and Yahweh in Israelite religion. The patron god of the Moabite dynasty was Chemosh (KAI 181:3, 5, 9, 12, 13, 14, 18, 19, 32, 33; 1 Kings 11:7; Jer. 48:13). The name Ashtar-Chemosh appears once (KAI 181:17). Otherwise, the deities of Moab are little known. The case for Edom perhaps parallels the religious situation of early Israel more closely. The national god of Edom was Qaws, attested in inscriptional material from Qitmit and the writings of Josephus (Antiquities 15.253). This divine name appears as the theophoric element in several Edomite, Nabatean, and Arabic names, including those of Edomite kings.El (Gen. 36:39), Baal (Gen. 36:38), and Hadad (1 Kings 11:14-21; Gen. 36:35- 36) also appear as theophoric elements in Edomite proper names. Some of these names were possibly old Canaanite deities that continued into first millennium Edomite religion, although like the name of Anat in Israelite names, these theophoric elements may not point to cultic devotion to these deities. A head of a goddess, presumed to be Edomite, was excavated at Qitmit. As an aside, it should be noted that biblical information about the Edomites in these passages may suggest a high level of cultural interaction in early Israel. This interaction would further explain the origins and incorporation of the cult of Yahweh into the highlands of Israel in the Iron I period from Edom/ Midian/Teiman/Paran, a tradition that perdured despite later hostilities between Israelites and Edomites. In other words these cultures will cross pollinate, which has tremendous influence on J (Yahwehist) writings, so when you say you don't ignore, I don't mean you specifically. I mean Christianity as a whole, who would never think that the Israelite's and their neighbors had a close relationship concerning their worship of their specific Gods.


                  Originally posted by Bonlee View Post
                  Except that the purity rites for Aaron that are performed in the Bible, were instituted specifically by God (the I AM) and not by the Mesopotamian gods.





                  Purity rites were customary from Mesopotamia, otherwise the Israelite's would not have performed these rites. Everything in that rite is specific and has a purposes, the Israelite's would not have known to do the same things the Mesopotamian's did unless they knew about it. Either way it stems from Mesopotamia and not from Israel.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Shamash View Post

                    Originally posted by Bonlee View Post
                    With this information, I will repeat what I stated previously, with a few words altered to better apply it to your situation: I understand what you are stating and that is because you don’t know Him, due to your lack of spiritual insight.(Holy Spirit) You are relying on your 'spirituality' (not the Holy Spirit) and your academic approach as you read through the Bible, which is an exercise in futility, as the Bible was never meant for that purpose or to be understood by those means.



                    Shamash: First off, no I am not even close to interested in worshiping the Christian version of "Him" "I Am" "Jesus" "God" and I am familiar with Christian doctrine.
                    What part of my post that you quoted above suggests that you were interested?
                    However since you brought it up, it is not about being “familiar with Christian doctrine”, it is about knowing Him.

                    Sorry, but the Bible was directed by Sectarian Monotheists who used Church authority to dictate their version of religious aspects to specific target audiences.
                    Do not apologize.
                    You have a right to have an opinion as do I, and my opinion disagrees with yours and I will repeat that you have come to this conclusion because:

                    You are relying on your 'spirituality' (not the Holy Spirit) and your academic approach as you read through the Bible, which is an exercise in futility, as the Bible was never meant for that purpose or to be understood by those means.
                    ..... .............. ................. ............

                    Originally posted by Bonlee View Post

                    There are no Biblical myths.
                    The fact that the Bible records that there were Canaanite myths, Babylonian myths, and so on at particular times, and that the Israelites participated, only exemplifies the difference between those myths and the One true God.


                    This is how I describe "myths" when discussing mythology, it's important to define terms. The myths discussed are for the most part religious narratives that transcend the possibilities of common experience and that express any given culture's literal or metaphorical understanding of various aspects of reality. In this sense myths have to do with the relation of the culture, or of human beings in general, to the unknown in the cosmos. No, the Bible does not record Canaanite or Babylonian myths, there are such things as cross pollination which happens in the texts.
                    By your own definition of “myths” and by your very own posts complete with your understanding of Bible texts that you've sited, you contradict yourself by stating that, “No, the Bible does not record Canaanite or Babylonian myths”.

                    So the Encylopedia posting is general knowledge, do not know why you would post that? Rather odd.
                    Not odd at all, considering that it is in reference to what I posted immediately above it:

                    There are no Biblical myths.
                    The fact that the Bible records that there were Canaanite myths, Babylonian myths, and so on at particular times, and that the Israelites participated, only exemplifies the difference between those myths and the One true God.


                    Proto Israelite's according to the same link you shared "in primitive times the Israelites shared many of the religious beliefs of their Canaanite neighbors, as the monotheistic idea developed, Baal became the chief villain of Israelite religion." Yahweh begins in Canaan, not anywhere else. Much later on the Israelite's attempt to make distinction between Yahweh and Baal, but as always the Isarelite's end up being sub structured as polytheistic. They switch on and off from Polytheism and Monotheism, finally after Babylonian captivity they become Monotheistic. In fact you spell it out for me:

                    The prophet Hosea put the issue more subtly when he declared: I will allure her [Israel] and bring her into the wilderness, and I will speak tenderly and to her heart…. And it shall be in that day, says the Lord, that you will call Me 'Ishi' [my Husband], and you shall no more call Me 'Baali' [my Lord/Baal]. For I will take away the names of the baalim out of her mouth, and they shall no more be mentioned or seriously remembered by their name (Hosea 2:14-17).

                    Hosea 2:16 "And it shall be in that day, says the Lord, that you will call Me 'Ishi' [my Husband], and you shall no more call Me 'Baali' [my Lord/Baal]."

                    Yahweh was always Baal, to the Israelite's a distinction is being made that Yahweh no longer wants to be called Baal but Husband (Ishi), in this Yahweh isn't denying he is Baal, he instead wants to be called Husband.
                    Actually, you should read that whole chapter, it isn’t long, it is a beautiful way of describing Israel’s relationship with God from beginning to end (and it isn’t over yet).
                    As you read this short chapter, you will see the distinction of the One true God and why He wants to be called Husband.

                    When you read that one verse or few verses on their own and out of context with the chapter, you will only see what you want to see. In context it is describing the relationship as that of a marriage in reference to Israel’s to God. Now Husband (Ishi) no more Baali (my lord and master – or - Baal) because the name of Baali and the term being ‘lord and master’ would bring the remembrance of the names of the Baal gods before them. I have posted more than a few verses, but not the whole chapter...but please read through it, I'm sure you will enjoy it.


                    NASB
                    10 “And then I will uncover her lewdness
                    In the sight of her lovers,
                    And no one will rescue her out of My hand.
                    11 “I will also put an end to all her gaiety,
                    Her feasts, her new moons, her sabbaths
                    And all her festal assemblies.
                    12 “I will destroy her vines and fig trees,
                    Of which she said, ‘These are my wages
                    Which my lovers have given me.’
                    And I will make them a forest,
                    And the beasts of the field will devour them.
                    13 “I will punish her for the days of the Baals
                    When she used to offer sacrifices to them
                    And adorn herself with her earrings and jewelry,
                    And follow her lovers, so that she forgot Me,” declares the Lord.
                    14 “Therefore, behold, I will allure her,
                    Bring her into the wilderness
                    And speak kindly to her.
                    15 “Then I will give her her vineyards from there,
                    And the valley of Achor as a door of hope.
                    And she will sing there as in the days of her youth,
                    As in the day when she came up from the land of Egypt.
                    16 “It will come about in that day,” declares the Lord,
                    “That you will call Me [Ishi
                    And will no longer call Me Baali.
                    17 “For I will remove the names of the Baals from her mouth,
                    So that they will be mentioned by their names no more.


                    Notice the distinction of 'they' and 'theirs'.


                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Shamash View Post
                      Either way I clarified.

                      One element in Baal’s meteorological entourage in KTU 1.5 V 6-11.342 Psalm 77:19 refers to the wheels in Yahweh’s storm theophany, which presumes a divine war chariot. Psalm 18 (2 Sam. 22):11 presents Yahweh riding on the wind surrounded by storm clouds. This image forms the basis for the description of the divine chariot in Ezekiel 1 and 10. Psalm 65:12 (E 11) likewise presupposes the storm-chariot image: “You crown your bounteous year, and your tracks drip with fatness.” Similarly, Yahweh’s storm chariot is the image presumed by Habakkuk 3:8 and 15:

                      Was your wrath against the rivers, O Yahweh? Was your anger against the rivers, or your indignation against the sea, when you rode upon your horses, upon your chariot of victory? You trampled the sea with your horses, the surging of the mighty waters.

                      The description of Yahweh’s horses fits into the larger context of the storm theophany directed against the cosmic enemies, Sea and River. (The horses in this verse are unrelated to the horses dedicated to the sun in 2 Kings 23:11, unless there was a coalescence of the chariot imagery of the storm and the sun ) The motif of chariot-riding storm-god with his divine entourage extends in Israelite tradition to the divine armies of Yahweh riding on chariots with horses (2 Kings 2:11; 6:17). Other features originally attributed to Baal also accrued to Yahweh. Albright and other scholars 344 have argued the epithet ‘ly, “the Most High,” belonging to Baal in the Ugaritic texts (KTU 1.16 III 6, 8; cf. RS 18.22.4’), appears as a title of Yahweh in 1 Samuel 2:10, 2 Samuel 23:1, Psalms 18 (2 Sam. 22):14 and 68:6, 30, 35 (cf. Dan. 3:26, 32; 4:14, 21, 22, 29, 31; 5:18, 21; 7:25), in the biblical hypocoristicon ‘ē/î, the name of the priest of Shiloh,345 and in Hebrew inscriptional personal names yhw‘ly, “Yahu is Most High,” yw‘ly, “Yaw is Most High,” ̔lyhw, “Most High is Yahu,” and ‘lyw, “Most High is Yaw.”346 The bull iconography that Jeroboam I sponsored in Dan and Bethel (1 Kings 12:28-31) has been attributed to the influence of Baal in the northern kingdom. This imagery represented an old northern tradition of divine iconography for Yahweh used probably as a rival symbol to the traditional royal iconography of the cherubim of the Jerusalem temple.347 The old northern tradition of bull iconography for Yahweh is reflected in the name ‘glyw, which may be translated, “Young bull is Yaw,” in Samaria ostracon 41:1.348 The ca. twelfth-century bull figurine discovered at a site in the hill country of Ephraim and the young bull depicted on the tenth-century Taanach stand likewise involve the iconography of a god, either Yahweh or Baal. 349 Newer discoveries have yielded iconography of a deity on a bull on a ninth-century plaque from Dan and an eighth-century stele from Bethsaid.

                      Since we aren't ignorning events surrounding Biblical mythologies, the immediate neighbors of Israel that emerged by the early first millennium exhibit ten or fewer deities, according to the meager data.271 At first glance, Ammon does not appear to reflect a relatively small group of deities. Based on the theophoric elements in proper names, there are about ten Ammonite deities: ’b, ’dn, ’l, ’nrt, bl, hm, mlk, nny, ’m and šmš. Some of these elements, such as ’b and ’dn, are presumably titles, however. Biblical sources presuppose that mlk or Milkom was the national Ammonite god (1 Kings 11:5, 33; Jer. 49:1, 3; cf. 2 Sam. 12:30; 1 Chron. 20:2; Zeph. 1:5). Ammonite proper names show a preponderance of the theophoric element *‘l, which might suggest a close relationship between El and Milkom in Ammonite religion. Perhaps the two were identified, like El and Yahweh in Israelite religion. The patron god of the Moabite dynasty was Chemosh (KAI 181:3, 5, 9, 12, 13, 14, 18, 19, 32, 33; 1 Kings 11:7; Jer. 48:13). The name Ashtar-Chemosh appears once (KAI 181:17). Otherwise, the deities of Moab are little known. The case for Edom perhaps parallels the religious situation of early Israel more closely. The national god of Edom was Qaws, attested in inscriptional material from Qitmit and the writings of Josephus (Antiquities 15.253). This divine name appears as the theophoric element in several Edomite, Nabatean, and Arabic names, including those of Edomite kings.El (Gen. 36:39), Baal (Gen. 36:38), and Hadad (1 Kings 11:14-21; Gen. 36:35- 36) also appear as theophoric elements in Edomite proper names. Some of these names were possibly old Canaanite deities that continued into first millennium Edomite religion, although like the name of Anat in Israelite names, these theophoric elements may not point to cultic devotion to these deities. A head of a goddess, presumed to be Edomite, was excavated at Qitmit. As an aside, it should be noted that biblical information about the Edomites in these passages may suggest a high level of cultural interaction in early Israel. This interaction would further explain the origins and incorporation of the cult of Yahweh into the highlands of Israel in the Iron I period from Edom/ Midian/Teiman/Paran, a tradition that perdured despite later hostilities between Israelites and Edomites. In other words these cultures will cross pollinate, which has tremendous influence on J (Yahwehist) writings, so when you say you don't ignore, I don't mean you specifically. I mean Christianity as a whole, who would never think that the Israelite's and their neighbors had a close relationship concerning their worship of their specific Gods.
                      I, myself, would never presume to speak for “Christianity as a whole” and I am a Christian, so to see you attempt to do so is rather amusing. I can assume that those Christians who have read through the O.T.books of the Bible are also aware of the connection, due to spiritual insight from the Holy Spirit, enabling them to understand the progression from the Israelites getting caught up in the practices and worships of other gods, to finally being able to acknowledge and attempt to follow the One true God, and it poses no concern to them, as it seems to have done to you.
                      Why do you think that is so?

                      Purity rites were customary from Mesopotamia, otherwise the Israelite's would not have performed these rites. Everything in that rite is specific and has a purposes, the Israelite's would not have known to do the same things the Mesopotamian's did unless they knew about it. Either way it stems from Mesopotamia and not from Israel.
                      You mentioned Aaron specifically and I addressed why Aaron’s purity rites were performed at that time; by the command of God and not by or because of the Mesopotamia Gods.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Bonlee View Post

                        I, myself, would never presume to speak for “Christianity as a whole” and I am a Christian, so to see you attempt to do so is rather amusing. I can assume that those Christians who have read through the O.T.books of the Bible are also aware of the connection, due to spiritual insight from the Holy Spirit, enabling them to understand the progression from the Israelites getting caught up in the practices and worships of other gods, to finally being able to acknowledge and attempt to follow the One true God, and it poses no concern to them, as it seems to have done to you.
                        Why do you think that is so?
                        No, I just tend think you are a Christian by claim and a Christian is a Christian is a Christian, generally speaking you can see patterns in the Christian faith which repeat among other Christians, such as going to Church and so I was attempting anything, but essentially you are a Christian. Whether any Christians who have read through the OT and made any connection isn't really relevant at all. Israelite's are polytheistic, monotheistic, polytheistic, monotheistic, ad nauseam. It's just Yahweh becomes popularized in Israelite mythology.


                        Originally posted by Bonlee View Post
                        You mentioned Aaron specifically and I addressed why Aaron’s purity rites were performed at that time; by the command of God and not by or because of the Mesopotamia Gods.
                        Actually that isn't true Aaron traditionally conducted those rites. Whether he claims to have received Holy instruction to perform the ritual in a specific manner is only a claim, because it wasn't just the Mesopotamian's who engaged in purification rites.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Shamash View Post
                          No, I just tend think you are a Christian by claim and a Christian is a Christian is a Christian, generally speaking you can see patterns in the Christian faith which repeat among other Christians, such as going to Church and so I was attempting anything, but essentially you are a Christian. Whether any Christians who have read through the OT and made any connection isn't really relevant at all.
                          Shamash: I mean Christianity as a whole, who would never think that the Israelite's and their neighbors had a close relationship concerning their worship of their specific Gods.

                          The fact that you can made a statement as if you know what ‘Christianity as a whole’ would think, makes my counter statement very relevant to the topic.
                          In fact so relevant that I think I'll post it again:

                          Originally posted by Bonlee View Post
                          I, myself, would never presume to speak for “Christianity as a whole” and I am a Christian, so to see you attempt to do so is rather amusing. I can assumethat those Christians who have read through the O.T.books of the Bible are also aware of the connection, due to spiritual insight from the Holy Spirit, enabling them to understand the progression from the Israelites getting caught up in the practices and worships of other gods, to finally being able to acknowledge and attempt to follow the One true God, and it poses no concern to them, as it seems to have done to you.
                          Why do you think that is so?



                          Israelite's are polytheistic, monotheistic, polytheistic, monotheistic, ad nauseam.
                          Yes they were back in the O.T. times, as the Bible clearly points out.

                          It's just Yahweh becomes popularized in Israelite mythology.
                          Being a polytheist, who worships the gods of Sumer, and with the sources you have chosen and with your limited Holy Spirit led understanding of the Bible, what other conclusion would you expect to arrive at?

                          Originally posted by Bonlee View Post
                          You mentioned Aaron specifically and I addressed why Aaron’s purity rites were performed at that time; by the command of God and not by or because of the Mesopotamia Gods.

                          Shamash:Actually that isn't true Aaron traditionally conducted those rites. Whether he claims to have received Holy instruction to perform the ritual in a specific manner is only a claim, because it wasn't just the Mesopotamian's who engaged in purification rites.
                          Aaron doesn’t claim anything. The Bible clearly outlines where the instructions came from and how they were to be done, and as I stated, it was not from the Mesopotamian gods, but from the One true God, the ‘I AM’. The reason I mentioned the Mesopotamians, is because that is what you initially referred too specifically.


                          Post #8

                          Shamash:For example the purity rites in the Bible performed by Aaron are exactly the same type practiced in earlier Mesopotamia to rid a town of sin.

                          Post # 9
                          Originally posted by Bonlee View Post
                          Except that the purity rites for Aaron that are performed in the Bible, were instituted specifically by God (the I AM) and not by the Mesopotamian gods.


                          Shamash: Purity rites were customary from Mesopotamia, otherwise the Israelite's would not have performed these rites. Everything in that rite is specific and has a purposes, the Israelite's would not have known to do the same things the Mesopotamian's did unless they knew about it. Either way it stems from Mesopotamia and not from Israel.

                          Bonlee:
                          Except that the purity rites for Aaron that are performed in the Bible, were instituted specifically by God (the I AM) and not by the Mesopotamian gods.




                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Bonlee View Post
                            Shamash: I mean Christianity as a whole, who would never think that the Israelite's and their neighbors had a close relationship concerning their worship of their specific Gods.

                            The fact that you can made a statement as if you know what ‘Christianity as a whole’ would think, makes my counter statement very relevant to the topic.
                            In fact so relevant that I think I'll post it again:

                            Originally posted by Bonlee View Post
                            I, myself, would never presume to speak for “Christianity as a whole” and I am a Christian, so to see you attempt to do so is rather amusing. I can assume that those Christians who have read through the O.T.books of the Bible are also aware of the connection, due to spiritual insight from the Holy Spirit, enabling them to understand the progression from the Israelites getting caught up in the practices and worships of other gods, to finally being able to acknowledge and attempt to follow the One true God, and it poses no concern to them, as it seems to have done to you.
                            Why do you think that is so?
                            The general consensus among Christians is that if the Bible is being followed, thou shalt have no other Gods , I am sure that every Christian (if not most) would agree that "thou shalt have no other Gods" is from the Bible. So in those terms, yes, it is predicative of what the Christians will say for certain things.


                            The Israelite's were their neighbors, not that they had a close relationship, but the Israelite's come from Canaan, that is more than a neighboring relationship. So all these religious themes, motifs, are all about in Polytheism as they are in Monotheism.

                            Originally posted by Bonlee View Post

                            Being a polytheist, who worships the gods of Sumer, and with the sources you have chosen and with your limited Holy Spirit led understanding of the Bible, what other conclusion would you expect to arrive at?
                            Wait, do you disagree with my statement then? So Yahweh is not popularized? What are you saying?

                            Originally posted by Bonlee View Post
                            Aaron doesn’t claim anything. The Bible clearly outlines where the instructions came from and how they were to be done, and as I stated, it was not from the Mesopotamian gods, but from the One true God, the ‘I AM’. The reason I mentioned the Mesopotamia's, is because that is what you initially referred too specifically.


                            Post #8

                            Shamash:For example the purity rites in the Bible performed by Aaron are exactly the same type practiced in earlier Mesopotamia to rid a town of sin.

                            Post # 9
                            Originally posted by Bonlee View Post
                            Except that the purity rites for Aaron that are performed in the Bible, were instituted specifically by God (the I AM) and not by the Mesopotamian gods.


                            Shamash: Purity rites were customary from Mesopotamia, otherwise the Israelite's would not have performed these rites. Everything in that rite is specific and has a purposes, the Israelite's would not have known to do the same things the Mesopotamian's did unless they knew about it. Either way it stems from Mesopotamia and not from Israel.

                            Bonlee: Except that the purity rites for Aaron that are performed in the Bible, were instituted specifically by God (the I AM) and not by the Mesopotamian gods.

                            We can break this down simply.

                            Originally posted by Bonlee View Post
                            Aaron doesn’t claim anything.
                            Yes he does make a claim. If God tells him or commands

                            Aaron to perform purity rites, he has to make a claim to the people (because the entire village is involved in the purity rites to some degree) that God told him to engage in purity rites.

                            Now, whether that claim is true or false is a different story.

                            What is true is that in Mesopotamia these types of rites were performed and commanded by a God.

                            Aaron engages in purity rites, as earlier do the Mesopotamian's, Aaron is commanded by God to engage in purity rites, the Mesopotamian's are commanded by their city-state God to do the same thing. There isn't much change from earlier Mesopotamia to later Aaron's purity rites, which did involve the removal of sin from sacrificing children (this includes pregnant women) to Moloch or explicit activities in the synagogue.



                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Shamash View Post
                              The general consensus among Christians is that if the Bible is being followed, thou shalt have no other Gods , I am sure that every Christian (if not most) would agree that "thou shalt have no other Gods" is from the Bible. So in those terms, yes, it is predicative of what the Christians will say for certain things.
                              Yes, in those terms. Which is not the same as what we were discussing - you basing a conclusion on your own speculation and pronouncing it as if it were fact about Christianity as a whole.


                              The Israelite's were their neighbors, not that they had a close relationship, but the Israelite's come from Canaan, that is more than a neighboring relationship. So all these religious themes, motifs, are all about in Polytheism as they are in Monotheism.
                              This has been gone over 'ad nauseum' (a little throw back to one of your own comments ) yet here it sits, all alone, not connected to anything before or after it.....


                              Wait, do you disagree with my statement then? So Yahweh is not popularized? What are you saying?
                              It’s your statement based on your understanding from your research and from your belief system – your conclusion is understandable from that perspective.

                              Originally posted by Bonlee View Post

                              Being a polytheist, who worships the gods of Sumer, and with the sources you have chosen and with your limited Holy Spirit led understanding of the Bible, what other conclusion would you expect to arrive at?


                              We can break this down simply.

                              Yes he does make a claim. If God tells him or commands

                              Aaron to perform purity rites, he has to make a claim to the people (because the entire village is involved in the purity rites to some degree) that God told him to engage in purity rites.

                              Now, whether that claim is true or false is a different story.

                              What is true is that in Mesopotamia these types of rites were performed and commanded by a God.
                              I was following you quite fine - up until this last part below - do you think you could 'reword' it - I simply don't see what it is you're attempting to say. Thanks.

                              Aaron engages in purity rites, as earlier do the Mesopotamian's, Aaron is commanded by God to engage in purity rites, the Mesopotamian's are commanded by their city-state God to do the same thing. There isn't much change from earlier Mesopotamia to later Aaron's purity rites, which did involve the removal of sin from sacrificing children (this includes pregnant women) to Moloch or explicit activities in the synagogue.





                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X