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Kids with ADHD must squirm to learn, study says

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Keith C View Post
    So the data you need before reaching any conclusion is to measure a year's worth of learning by each individual in your class, (with your present seating policy) and see if there is any correlation between learning and seating position or fidgeting behavior.
    Your opinion, without such data, is not very persuasive.
    Good idea. I have over 800 students. I'll get right on that.
    One thing have I asked of the LORD... that I may dwell in the house of the LORD all the days of my life, to gaze upon the beauty of the LORD and to inquire in his temple.--Psalm 27:4

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    • #17
      Originally posted by cas07 View Post
      I have fidgety children...they have both ASD and ADHD. I request they not be in the front, so as not to disrupt other children... That isn't fair to those students to become so distracted by mine.

      Why do you assume if they are fidgety they aren't paying attention?
      And I would like to add to that, cas. If I let my fidgety kids fidget in the back, they can do their things uninterrupted and uncorrected by me. What I mean is: if I sit them up front, I'm now worried about their fidgeting disrupting the rest of the class, which then prompts me to want to quell it. Which leads to teacher correction, which isn't even productive. SO it's a lose-lose situation. It makes the ADHD student feel bad, it doesn't do a bit of good, it disrupts the class, etc, etc, etc.

      Now, GENERALLY speaking, my older students can usually limit their fidgeting to their hands, and so can often be seating along the sides but in the front with a "fidget" (for non-educators: a foosh ball or similar toy). But often my younger students need to be in the back, because for some, those long limbs are all involved in the fidgeting.
      One thing have I asked of the LORD... that I may dwell in the house of the LORD all the days of my life, to gaze upon the beauty of the LORD and to inquire in his temple.--Psalm 27:4

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Keith C View Post
        Because, long ago I was a boy and I know I was easily distracted.
        It is not only the kids in front who can be disruptive. What about the kids in the same row? What about the kid immediately behind who pokes you in the back? What about someone at the back who is always making a noise?
        I suspect disruptive kids are always disruptive and seating them at the back might help your conscience, but it does not cure the problem.

        Has there been any experiments with 'white noise' level in classrooms to cover up the identifiable individual noises?
        So earlier, you seemed to imply that these ADHD kids are not learning in back and should be up front.

        Now you're saying, what: they're disrupting the class no matter where they are, so....what? Should be excluded? Made to sit perfectly still? What are you saying now?
        One thing have I asked of the LORD... that I may dwell in the house of the LORD all the days of my life, to gaze upon the beauty of the LORD and to inquire in his temple.--Psalm 27:4

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        • #19
          Originally posted by WendyWrites View Post
          So earlier, you seemed to imply that these ADHD kids are not learning in back and should be up front.

          Now you're saying, what: they're disrupting the class no matter where they are, so....what? Should be excluded? Made to sit perfectly still? What are you saying now?
          Never heard of Sister Sandy Koufax?
          Reality rules, Honor the truth - in memory of Chemist.

          fusilier
          James 2:24

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          • #20
            Originally posted by WendyWrites View Post
            So earlier, you seemed to imply that these ADHD kids are not learning in back and should be up front.

            Now you're saying, what: they're disrupting the class no matter where they are, so....what? Should be excluded? Made to sit perfectly still? What are you saying now?
            What I have been trying to get across is the need first to be sure the real problems with classroom discipline have been identified and then that acceptable and effective solutions are developed.
            At this stage, I have no way to know whether it is better to eliminate/cure all disruptive behavior, before allowing entry to regular classrooms, or whether there is some technical fix, for instance noise-cancelling headphones plus virtual reality headsets, so that everyone can work in an environment most suited to their learning mode, but in the same 'inclusive' classroom. Even if that second alternative were economically feasible, would this require lifetime use of the technology?

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Keith C View Post
              So the data you need before reaching any conclusion is to measure a year's worth of learning by each individual in your class, (with your present seating policy) and see if there is any correlation between learning and seating position or fidgeting behavior.
              Your opinion, without such data, is not very persuasive.
              Generally, teacher's don't have the extra time to set up research projects on the side, in addition to all of the constant assessments and information recording they must do on top of actual teaching. The best people to do research like this are actual researchers, who can accompany and observe students along side of the teacher and then relay that information back to teachers. Researchers can devote their full attention to the students being that they aren't responsible for the actual teaching and instruction. (We have folks from Johns Hopkins who observe our classrooms while teachers teach to do that sort of thing. What they are assessing, I'm not sure, but I'd be curious to know!)

              Teachers can use a variety of resources to create their approach to learning. That can include staying up to date with studies, taking additional classes, observing other teachers, even surveying students and asking about what works and what doesn't. But the best tool a teacher has is his or her own experience. What works, and what doesn't. Trial and error. And there will be error before there is success. You throw away what doesn't work. You keep what does. You constantly evolve your approach but you keep what works.

              Another thing people must take into account is that a teacher can't simply create her approach to the classroom with just one single student or group of students in mind. You must create an approach to learning that works for the benefit of all the students as much as possible. As I mentioned before, teachers themselves are human! And teaching is an art that requires focus, attention, energy on so many different things at once. The teacher herself might be distracted by the fidgeting if its in the front row. There are so many things to take into account when setting up a classroom. Yeah, even seating is a big strategy.
              "Fear is the path to the dark side: fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering."
              -Yoda

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              • #22
                Originally posted by cas07 View Post
                I have fidgety children...they have both ASD and ADHD. I request they not be in the front, so as not to disrupt other children... That isn't fair to those students to become so distracted by mine.

                Why do you assume if they are fidgety they aren't paying attention?
                I have a heart for the fidgeters...

                In my observations, some of them can fidget while they are 100% tuned in to the teacher. It *appears* as if they are not listening, but they very much are.

                On the other hand, some of the students who fidget do seem to have more trouble soaking up what's being taught, and so for those types of students, educators and parents need to find solutions. For this reason, I was very curious and interested in this study.
                "Fear is the path to the dark side: fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering."
                -Yoda

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Feyaway View Post
                  (We have folks from Johns Hopkins who observe our classrooms while teachers teach to do that sort of thing. What they are assessing, I'm not sure, but I'd be curious to know!)
                  The fact that you do not know what they are assessing, or what conclusions they are reaching, suggests the whole activity is a waste of time. Even if observers are not to influence normal school practice, at end of semester or year, teachers should be let in on the secrets. At the very least, this should make the researchers more concerned to reach conclusions which the teachers can understand and implement in the next year.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Keith C View Post
                    The fact that you do not know what they are assessing, or what conclusions they are reaching, suggests the whole activity is a waste of time. Even if observers are not to influence normal school practice, at end of semester or year, teachers should be let in on the secrets. At the very least, this should make the researchers more concerned to reach conclusions which the teachers can understand and implement in the next year.
                    Why would you assume that its a waste of time? You don't know what the information is being used for. (I wasn't a teacher of students they were assessing). It could have something to do with creating approaches to education in public schools, and the formation of curriculum and teaching strategies. Its above my pay grade to ask, and if I want to find out, I'd probably luck out better by trying to get into the Johns Hopkins program and be a part of the team.

                    I love the idea of doing research and assessments in classrooms to see how children fair in the classroom according to all sorts of factors, including seating. (That is why I constantly read studies on education and learning, among other things). The only question is - Who is going to do this research? And who is going to pay them to do it? Time is money.

                    And then the next question is, "What do we research?". Classroom seating is only one of 1000 factors and dynamics we could study in a classroom.

                    My main point is that teachers do assess students, but their biggest hats are "instructor" and "classroom manager". Its really impossible to fully assess/observe all the students (the way a researcher would) when you are devoted to teaching and instructing. This is why when teachers and student teachers do sit in and do observations in a classroom, they are actually told not to interact with the students, and become more of an outside observer to watch how students interact with and respond to the teacher and other students. (Although students can be surveyed and questioned by researchers outside of the classroom setting).
                    Last edited by Feyaway; 05-06-15, 12:26 AM.
                    "Fear is the path to the dark side: fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering."
                    -Yoda

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Keith C View Post
                      What I have been trying to get across is the need first to be sure the real problems with classroom discipline have been identified and then that acceptable and effective solutions are developed.
                      At this stage, I have no way to know whether it is better to eliminate/cure all disruptive behavior, before allowing entry to regular classrooms, or whether there is some technical fix, for instance noise-cancelling headphones plus virtual reality headsets, so that everyone can work in an environment most suited to their learning mode, but in the same 'inclusive' classroom. Even if that second alternative were economically feasible, would this require lifetime use of the technology?
                      Meanwhile, back in the real world.

                      I see over 800 students a week. I sit in on meetings for my special needs students weekly so I can learn about their circumstances and adjust accordingly.

                      You have offered me conflicting advice and ended up saying that virtual reality headsets might be the ticket. I'm gonna take that as you saying there is no magic bullet. On this we agree, thanks.
                      One thing have I asked of the LORD... that I may dwell in the house of the LORD all the days of my life, to gaze upon the beauty of the LORD and to inquire in his temple.--Psalm 27:4

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by WendyWrites View Post
                        Meanwhile, back in the real world.

                        I see over 800 students a week. I sit in on meetings for my special needs students weekly so I can learn about their circumstances and adjust accordingly.

                        You have offered me conflicting advice and ended up saying that virtual reality headsets might be the ticket. I'm gonna take that as you saying there is no magic bullet. On this we agree, thanks.
                        You seem to be part of a large experiment, instigated when the bad social results of isolating many special needs students from regular classrooms was recognized. Part of the experiment seems to avoid collection of data on how individuals with both regular and with special needs progress academically when in the same classroom.
                        Ignoring the problem does not make it go away.

                        If there is a magic bullet, it certainly has not been found yet.
                        Expensive technology may not be the solution, but is there any alternative which works?

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Keith C View Post
                          You seem to be part of a large experiment, instigated when the bad social results of isolating many special needs students from regular classrooms was recognized. Part of the experiment seems to avoid collection of data on how individuals with both regular and with special needs progress academically when in the same classroom.
                          Ignoring the problem does not make it go away.

                          If there is a magic bullet, it certainly has not been found yet.
                          Expensive technology may not be the solution, but is there any alternative which works?
                          Au contraire. We collect a lot of data on individual students. A LOT.
                          One thing have I asked of the LORD... that I may dwell in the house of the LORD all the days of my life, to gaze upon the beauty of the LORD and to inquire in his temple.--Psalm 27:4

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by WendyWrites View Post
                            Au contraire. We collect a lot of data on individual students. A LOT.
                            If you really do collect and use a lot of data, then you should already have information on how much one disruptive kid in the back of the class interferes with the learning of all others in the class. You might have info on how much each special needs kid improves socially by being mainstreamed.

                            My impression from your posts is that your conclusions were not based on any hard data, just your anecdotal evidence.

                            I suspect you actually have a lot of data, but it is not suitable for answering relevant questions.
                            This is from New York Times opinion piece on 'big data' and old-fashioned 'small data'.
                            Article starts with Facebook, but eventually gets to teaching.
                            There is a special sauce necessary to making big data work: surveys and the judgment of humans — two seemingly old-fashioned approaches that we will call small data.

                            Facebook has tons of data on how people use its site. It’s easy to see whether a particular news feed story was liked, clicked, commented on or shared. But not one of these is a perfect proxy for more important questions: What was the experience like? Did the story connect you with your friends? Did it inform you about the world? Did it make you laugh?

                            To get to these measures, Facebook has to take an old-fashioned approach: asking. Every day, hundreds of individuals load their news feed and answer questions about the stories they see there. Big data (likes, clicks, comments) is supplemented by small data (“Do you want to see this post in your News Feed?”) and contextualized (“Why?”).

                            Big data in the form of behaviors and small data in the form of surveys complement each other and produce insights rather than simple metrics. For example, it’s fairly obvious that clicks aren’t always the same — sometimes people click through to an article because they really want to see the content, but sometimes people are tricked by seductive headlines. Knowing this is useful only once we can go beyond just measuring clicks to actually differentiating one kind of click from another. With this enriched measure of high quality clicks in mind, Facebook can do a much better job of delivering the content that actually leads to a better experience and not just empty clicks.

                            Because of this need for small data, Facebook’s data teams look different than you would guess. Facebook employs social psychologists, anthropologists and sociologists precisely to find what simple measures miss.

                            And it’s not just Silicon Valley firms that employ the power of small data. Baseball is often used as the quintessential story of data geeks, crunching huge data sets, replacing fallible human experts, like scouts. This story was made famous in both the book and the movie “Moneyball.”

                            But the true story is not that simple. For one thing, many teams ended up going overboard on data. It was easy to measure offense and pitching, so some organizations ended up underestimating the importance of defense, which is harder to measure. In fact, in his book “The Signal and the Noise,” Nate Silver of fivethirtyeight.com estimates that the Oakland A’s were giving up 8 to 10 wins per year in the mid-1990s because of their lousy defense.
                            .............................

                            Education, despite all the debate about test scores, the Common Core and value-added methods, is actually moving in a similar direction as baseball and tech companies.

                            It’s gotten much less press than the test score debate, but there is also a huge national effort to collect and evaluate small data.
                            Student surveys have proliferated fast. So have parent surveys and teacher observations, where other experienced educators watch a teacher during a lesson.

                            Thomas Kane, a professor of education at Harvard, told us, “School districts realize they shouldn’t be focusing solely on test scores.”

                            A three-year study by the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation bears out the value of both big and small data. The authors analyzed value-added models, student surveys and teacher observations. They tested how to best predict student outcomes on both traditional state tests and more cognitively demanding challenges in math and English. When they put the three measures together into a composite score, they got the best results. “Each measure adds something of value,” the report concluded.

                            As at Facebook and in baseball front offices, small data can find holes in the big data. If a teacher raises her students’ test scores but students say she wastes a lot of time, and outside observers rank her poorly, this raises big questions. Conversely, if a teacher does not improve test scores but students say she inspires them and principals think she is imparting profound lessons, we may give her the benefit of the doubt. Most important, while big data can tell us whether certain teachers are helping their students, small data gives us the best hope to answer a crucial question: How are they doing it?
                            How-not-to-drown-in-numbers

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