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Who is best qualified to teach children?

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  • Who is best qualified to teach children?

    Sincere people who have studied hard for 4+ years (often closer to 20 or 30 years), have taught hundreds of children, know the curriculum, understand the concepts, know how to teach. . .

    or

    parents, just because they have spawned children, but who SOMETIMES have only fourth or fifth grade educations themselves?

    I ask this question because I know parents with such "educations" themselves who have or are "home schooling" their "high school" children. Some of those children, now 18-22 years old can barely read, cannot do simple Algebra, and are not qualified to do any meaningful work in today's workplace. They are functionally illiterate.

    They do not show up on the "standardized tests" the state offers or in the statistics developed from those tests because they don't TAKE them.

    There are MANY such parents "home-schooling" their children. The "wonderful statistics" of the home schoolers do not reflect these folks and are artificially inflated because they don't.

    So who is REALLY best qualified to teach? A trained and tested TEACHER, or a person with no qualifications other than having popped out a kid?


    In the Name of Jesus,
    morefish
    God's Word (Scripture) will convince me. YOUR argument is your own.

    I want to be so full of Jesus that if a mosquito bites me, he will fly away singing 'there's power in the blood. . .' (author unknown)

  • #2
    Originally posted by Morefish View Post
    Sincere people who have studied hard for 4+ years (often closer to 20 or 30 years), have taught hundreds of children, know the curriculum, understand the concepts, know how to teach. . .

    or

    parents, just because they have spawned children, but who SOMETIMES have only fourth or fifth grade educations themselves?

    I ask this question because I know parents with such "educations" themselves who have or are "home schooling" their "high school" children. Some of those children, now 18-22 years old can barely read, cannot do simple Algebra, and are not qualified to do any meaningful work in today's workplace. They are functionally illiterate.

    They do not show up on the "standardized tests" the state offers or in the statistics developed from those tests because they don't TAKE them.

    There are MANY such parents "home-schooling" their children. The "wonderful statistics" of the home schoolers do not reflect these folks and are artificially inflated because they don't.

    So who is REALLY best qualified to teach? A trained and tested TEACHER, or a person with no qualifications other than having popped out a kid?


    In the Name of Jesus,
    morefish
    Most of the kids I know who are home-schooled have parents with multiple degrees. They do just fine. Although I would not home school my kids because I think it important that they are not brought up in a bubble. Also there are many perfectly good Christian schools out there with qualified educators. I definately don't think parents, without atleast an undergad degree level education, should be home-schooling highschool aged kids if there are other options available.
    Last edited by ramyon; 11-17-12, 11:41 PM.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Morefish View Post
      Sincere people who have studied hard for 4+ years (often closer to 20 or 30 years), have taught hundreds of children, know the curriculum, understand the concepts, know how to teach. . .

      or

      parents, just because they have spawned children, but who SOMETIMES have only fourth or fifth grade educations themselves?

      I ask this question because I know parents with such "educations" themselves who have or are "home schooling" their "high school" children. Some of those children, now 18-22 years old can barely read, cannot do simple Algebra, and are not qualified to do any meaningful work in today's workplace. They are functionally illiterate.

      They do not show up on the "standardized tests" the state offers or in the statistics developed from those tests because they don't TAKE them.

      There are MANY such parents "home-schooling" their children. The "wonderful statistics" of the home schoolers do not reflect these folks and are artificially inflated because they don't.

      So who is REALLY best qualified to teach? A trained and tested TEACHER, or a person with no qualifications other than having popped out a kid?


      In the Name of Jesus,
      morefish
      If we are talking strictly qualified to teach academics, then a teacher, someone who has trained not only in the academic subjects but how to teach them to children. Despite what some people think, parents don't magically know how to teach or even raise kids just because they gave birth to one. Additionally, modern circumstances have make it hard for even well knowing parents to be able to teach their kids properly. That being said, there are good home schooling parents, some of them actually former teachers, and poor teachers despite their training.
      Can't remember why I have a secular moniker, but I am a Christian just so you know. Per Admin: Evangelism: Rule 24: .... Posters seeking to debate Evangelical Christians should take their discussions or questions to the appropriate forum, apologetics/etc., Atheists/Agnostics/Secularists, or those continuing to debate Evangelicals on the inappropriate forums will be assigned to the ATH/AGN/Secular forums as a Secular Member.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Morefish View Post
        Sincere people who have studied hard for 4+ years (often closer to 20 or 30 years), have taught hundreds of children, know the curriculum, understand the concepts, know how to teach. . .

        or

        parents, just because they have spawned children, but who SOMETIMES have only fourth or fifth grade educations themselves?

        I ask this question because I know parents with such "educations" themselves who have or are "home schooling" their "high school" children. Some of those children, now 18-22 years old can barely read, cannot do simple Algebra, and are not qualified to do any meaningful work in today's workplace. They are functionally illiterate.

        They do not show up on the "standardized tests" the state offers or in the statistics developed from those tests because they don't TAKE them.

        There are MANY such parents "home-schooling" their children. The "wonderful statistics" of the home schoolers do not reflect these folks and are artificially inflated because they don't.

        So who is REALLY best qualified to teach? A trained and tested TEACHER, or a person with no qualifications other than having popped out a kid?


        In the Name of Jesus,
        morefish
        The parents of those children
        "Now, what is the Sacrament of the Altar!
        Answer: It is the true body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, in and under the bread and wine which we Christians are commanded by the Word of Christ to eat and to drink."

        Martin Luther "The Large Cathechism"

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by ramyon View Post
          Most of the kids I know who are home-schooled have parents with multiple degrees. They do just fine. Although I would not home school my kids because I think it important that they are not brought up in a bubble. Also there are many perfectly good Christian schools out there with qualified educators. I definately don't think parents, without atleast an undergad degree level education, should be home-schooling highschool aged kids if there are other options available.
          A bubble? Whats more of a "bubble" thean spending up to 6 hours a day 5 days a week with kids who are mostly your own age? Where else in life does that happen? My wife homeschooled 2 kids through high school who are now both in private colleges with nearly 100% academic scholarships and she never finished her first year of college. To make the mistake that schools teach kids better is a bad one.
          "Now, what is the Sacrament of the Altar!
          Answer: It is the true body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, in and under the bread and wine which we Christians are commanded by the Word of Christ to eat and to drink."

          Martin Luther "The Large Cathechism"

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by ignatius View Post
            A bubble? Whats more of a "bubble" thean spending up to 6 hours a day 5 days a week with kids who are mostly your own age? Where else in life does that happen? My wife homeschooled 2 kids through high school who are now both in private colleges with nearly 100% academic scholarships and she never finished her first year of college. To make the mistake that schools teach kids better is a bad one.
            Oh how I wish we'd go back to the old days of mixed aged schooling. One of the big reasons I like Montessori. But then we couldn't do the awesome task of teaching 30 kids the same thing at the same time...

            The interesting thing is that same-aged classrooms started in America as a result of a Massachusetts secretary of Education liking the idea when he saw it in Prussia of all places. Apparently there were people even back then that saw the huge downside of this idea.

            Also, I do agree that homeschool isn't necessarily worse than public school even with parents with less than immaculate education. It isn't necessarily better, but it isn't necessarily worse either. The stereotype that homeschool kids will be poorly adjusted socially from not being around a bunch of kids at school is pretty well unevidenced in the literature. The research I've read has shown that a quality homeschool education can actually produced better adjusted children, especially when compared to a poor quality public school education. But just like public school, there are always poor quality homeschool environments out there as well.
            Last edited by HumbleThinker; 12-04-12, 12:24 AM.
            Can't remember why I have a secular moniker, but I am a Christian just so you know. Per Admin: Evangelism: Rule 24: .... Posters seeking to debate Evangelical Christians should take their discussions or questions to the appropriate forum, apologetics/etc., Atheists/Agnostics/Secularists, or those continuing to debate Evangelicals on the inappropriate forums will be assigned to the ATH/AGN/Secular forums as a Secular Member.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by HumbleThinker View Post
              Oh how I wish we'd go back to the old days of mixed aged schooling. One of the big reasons I like Montessori. But then we couldn't do the awesome task of teaching 30 kids the same thing at the same time...

              The interesting thing is that same-aged classrooms started in America as a result of a Massachusetts secretary of Education liking the idea when he saw it in Prussia of all places. Apparently there were people even back then that saw the huge downside of this idea.

              Also, I do agree that homeschool isn't necessarily worse than public school even with parents with less than immaculate education. It isn't necessarily better, but it isn't necessarily worse either. The stereotype that homeschool kids will be poorly adjusted socially from not being around a bunch of kids at school is pretty well unevidenced in the literature. The research I've read has shown that a quality homeschool education can actually produced better adjusted children, especially when compared to a poor quality public school education. But just like public school, there are always poor quality homeschool environments out there as well.
              The major difference between poor quality homeschooling and public education is my tax dollars arent paying for it.
              "Now, what is the Sacrament of the Altar!
              Answer: It is the true body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, in and under the bread and wine which we Christians are commanded by the Word of Christ to eat and to drink."

              Martin Luther "The Large Cathechism"

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by ignatius View Post
                The major difference between poor quality homeschooling and public education is my tax dollars arent paying for it.
                Soapbox Alert!

                Well we've thankfully long decided as a society that public education is a common good. That being said, because it is a common good and being paid by tax payer dollars, it certainly needs to be of a good quality. And even though there are great public schools out there (more than I think some people are willing to recognize), there is still a ways to go. The problem is that we as educators tend to look for changes that are too costly, too complicated, and too much based on one-off studies in model schools. Some of the worst schools have actually gone to be some of the best largely from simple changes in methodology (ie. see Tools for Teaching by Fred Jones); the only cost of these is purchasing of training material and sometimes some cheap technology (ie. look up Tools of the Mind). Even with all of these problems, though, the United States actually has the best education in the world for upper class children and one of the best for middle class students. The problem is that we have a disproportionate amount of lower class children, by far the largest of any 1st world country, and we are doing terrible at educating these children. Again, simple changes in methodology would be better at treating this problem than more expensive choices, though the educational effects of poverty cannot be altogether eradicated through education alone.[/soapbox]
                Can't remember why I have a secular moniker, but I am a Christian just so you know. Per Admin: Evangelism: Rule 24: .... Posters seeking to debate Evangelical Christians should take their discussions or questions to the appropriate forum, apologetics/etc., Atheists/Agnostics/Secularists, or those continuing to debate Evangelicals on the inappropriate forums will be assigned to the ATH/AGN/Secular forums as a Secular Member.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by HumbleThinker View Post
                  Soapbox Alert!

                  Well we've thankfully long decided as a society that public education is a common good. That being said, because it is a common good and being paid by tax payer dollars, it certainly needs to be of a good quality. And even though there are great public schools out there (more than I think some people are willing to recognize), there is still a ways to go. The problem is that we as educators tend to look for changes that are too costly, too complicated, and too much based on one-off studies in model schools. Some of the worst schools have actually gone to be some of the best largely from simple changes in methodology (ie. see Tools for Teaching by Fred Jones); the only cost of these is purchasing of training material and sometimes some cheap technology (ie. look up Tools of the Mind). Even with all of these problems, though, the United States actually has the best education in the world for upper class children and one of the best for middle class students. The problem is that we have a disproportionate amount of lower class children, by far the largest of any 1st world country, and we are doing terrible at educating these children. Again, simple changes in methodology would be better at treating this problem than more expensive choices, though the educational effects of poverty cannot be altogether eradicated through education alone.[/soapbox]
                  No one is questioning the common good associated with public education. The system is huge and bloated. Kids are going to college needing to complete remedial classes in order to effectively work in a college environment. Something is wrong with that picture. With the amount of money spent on education they shouldnt need remedical classes in order to perform at the college level. The biggest problem for me is the default position many people take that public education is superior to homsechooling. Thats just not the case. Public education is not the shining city on the hill.
                  "Now, what is the Sacrament of the Altar!
                  Answer: It is the true body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, in and under the bread and wine which we Christians are commanded by the Word of Christ to eat and to drink."

                  Martin Luther "The Large Cathechism"

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by ignatius View Post
                    No one is questioning the common good associated with public education. The system is huge and bloated. Kids are going to college needing to complete remedial classes in order to effectively work in a college environment. Something is wrong with that picture. With the amount of money spent on education they shouldnt need remedical classes in order to perform at the college level. The biggest problem for me is the default position many people take that public education is superior to homsechooling. Thats just not the case. Public education is not the shining city on the hill.
                    I do agree that too much emphasis is being put on sending kids to college. Some of them would do well to simply get a job right out of high school and do very well in it and then, if they think they need it, go get a college degree. Part of it, though, is a function of our economy where a large majority of jobs above minimum wage need or want a college degree, though it could turn into a chicken or egg question at this point. And it is a problem that people think public school is automatically better than homeschool. Both have highly variable quality. That being said, public education SHOULD be a city on the hill, but it obviously isn't there yet.
                    Can't remember why I have a secular moniker, but I am a Christian just so you know. Per Admin: Evangelism: Rule 24: .... Posters seeking to debate Evangelical Christians should take their discussions or questions to the appropriate forum, apologetics/etc., Atheists/Agnostics/Secularists, or those continuing to debate Evangelicals on the inappropriate forums will be assigned to the ATH/AGN/Secular forums as a Secular Member.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by HumbleThinker View Post
                      I do agree that too much emphasis is being put on sending kids to college. Some of them would do well to simply get a job right out of high school and do very well in it and then, if they think they need it, go get a college degree. Part of it, though, is a function of our economy where a large majority of jobs above minimum wage need or want a college degree, though it could turn into a chicken or egg question at this point. And it is a problem that people think public school is automatically better than homeschool. Both have highly variable quality. That being said, public education SHOULD be a city on the hill, but it obviously isn't there yet.
                      I read all the time that there is a shortage of manual laborers. I also know a lot of people who never went to college who make a lot more money than those that do.
                      "Now, what is the Sacrament of the Altar!
                      Answer: It is the true body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, in and under the bread and wine which we Christians are commanded by the Word of Christ to eat and to drink."

                      Martin Luther "The Large Cathechism"

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by ignatius View Post
                        I read all the time that there is a shortage of manual laborers. I also know a lot of people who never went to college who make a lot more money than those that do.
                        So you subscribe to the Marxist dictum that man is an economic animal?
                        Reality rules, Honor the truth - in memory of Chemist.

                        fusilier
                        James 2:24

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by fusilier View Post
                          So you subscribe to the Marxist dictum that man is an economic animal?
                          LOL Nooooooooooooooo what I subscribe to is that man is free to live his life as he sees fit but with the responsibility to care for himself. He knows better than any govt what he needs and should be left alone to do just that. Man however depends on govt for protection so he can provide for himself and the cost to him is a surrendering of some freedom but not responsbility. Everything is about economics but not everything is about Economics.
                          "Now, what is the Sacrament of the Altar!
                          Answer: It is the true body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, in and under the bread and wine which we Christians are commanded by the Word of Christ to eat and to drink."

                          Martin Luther "The Large Cathechism"

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by ignatius View Post
                            LOL Nooooooooooooooo what I subscribe to is that man is free to live his life as he sees fit but with the responsibility to care for himself. He knows better than any govt what he needs and should be left alone to do just that. Man however depends on govt for protection so he can provide for himself and the cost to him is a surrendering of some freedom but not responsbility. Everything is about economics but not everything is about Economics.
                            Just to segue since we have exhausted the OP's line of questioning, do you believe that man has any responsibility other than to care for himself? And if he has the responsibility to care for himself, why is it also not his responsibility to learn to defend himself and equip himself to do so in whatever way he sees fit without government assistance or interference?
                            Can't remember why I have a secular moniker, but I am a Christian just so you know. Per Admin: Evangelism: Rule 24: .... Posters seeking to debate Evangelical Christians should take their discussions or questions to the appropriate forum, apologetics/etc., Atheists/Agnostics/Secularists, or those continuing to debate Evangelicals on the inappropriate forums will be assigned to the ATH/AGN/Secular forums as a Secular Member.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Morefish View Post
                              Sincere people who have studied hard for 4+ years (often closer to 20 or 30 years), have taught hundreds of children, know the curriculum, understand the concepts, know how to teach. . .
                              or
                              parents, just because they have spawned children, but who SOMETIMES have only fourth or fifth grade educations themselves?
                              I ask this question because I know parents with such "educations" themselves who have or are "home schooling" their "high school" children. Some of those children, now 18-22 years old can barely read, cannot do simple Algebra, and are not qualified to do any meaningful work in today's workplace. They are functionally illiterate.
                              They do not show up on the "standardized tests" the state offers or in the statistics developed from those tests because they don't TAKE them.
                              There are MANY such parents "home-schooling" their children. The "wonderful statistics" of the home schoolers do not reflect these folks and are artificially inflated because they don't.
                              So who is REALLY best qualified to teach? A trained and tested TEACHER, or a person with no qualifications other than having popped out a kid?

                              In the Name of Jesus,
                              morefish
                              Even children who have been trained by parents with IQs lower than the mean temperature in Alaska can test above the levels of some public school children. Why is that? The reasons for failures in education are many and varied, but teachers' qualifications are just as big a problem in public schools as in private schools. Poorly qualified teachers can be found in both places, don't kid yourself. Highly qualified teachers can also be found in both places as well as has been more than adequately demonstrated in nationally standardized tests and in the national arenas such as spelling and geography bees, for example.

                              Christians would be wise to train their own children at home or in religious private schools in modern times, because of the filth being forced on young kids by 'progressive' secular govt. trained and motivated social engineers and perverts in the name of education.
                              I am not a NPB-Onlyist (No Perfect Bible Onlyist), nor a NA/UBS-Onlyist. Marke

                              If this book be not infallible, where shall we find infallibility? We have given up the Pope, for he has blundered often and terribly; but we shall not set up instead of him a horde of little popelings fresh from college. C. H. Spurgeon

                              For that Revised Version I have but little care as a general rule, holding it to be by no means an improvement upon our common Authorized Version. C.H. Spurgeon

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