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    RULE 24- Take this to the appropriate boards.


    Originally posted by tester View Post
    Any interpretation of Scripture that has "believers in the Son" falling under the wrath of God must be in error:
    agreed?
    No.

    Paul, addressing the Jewish believers in the Roman Church [Ro 2:17, 4:1, 7:1], says things like the following:

    Romans 2
    5But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed.

    Romans 8
    12So then, brothers,e we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

    Then he tells everyone:

    Romans 14
    23But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.d

    Does that mean it isn't God working in us to will and to do for His pleasure? No, of course not. It just means that some Christians have God working in them to will and do, but they don't do it. Paul warns us about the reality of just such a situation:

    Philippians 2
    12Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, 13for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

    So does Jesus:

    Matthew 25
    24He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed, 25so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here, you have what is yours.’ 26But his master answered him, ‘You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I scattered no seed? 27Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest. 28So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents. 29For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 30And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
    Last edited by Mod12; 01-02-19, 12:11 PM.
    Ro 3:3-8, 4:5; Gal 2:17 You must be ungodly to be justified.

  • #2
    RULE 24- Take this to the appropriate boards.


    Originally posted by Daniel. View Post
    No.

    Paul, addressing the Jewish believers in the Roman Church [Ro 2:17, 4:1, 7:1], says things like the following:

    Romans 2
    5But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed.

    Romans 8
    12So then, brothers,e we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

    Then he tells everyone:

    Romans 14
    23But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.d

    Does that mean it isn't God working in us to will and to do for His pleasure? No, of course not. It just means that some Christians have God working in them to will and do, but they don't do it. Paul warns us about the reality of just such a situation:

    Philippians 2
    12Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, 13for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

    So does Jesus:

    Matthew 25
    24He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed, 25so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here, you have what is yours.’ 26But his master answered him, ‘You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I scattered no seed? 27Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest. 28So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents. 29For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 30And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
    not one of your proof verses is about "Believers in the Son"
    your verses are about those with hard and impenitent hearts, those who disobey, and the faithless
    address these verses

    1 Thessalonians 1:10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead— Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.

    1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Romans 5:9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through Him!

    John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.
    Last edited by Mod12; 01-02-19, 12:12 PM.
    One of the ekklēsia

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by tester View Post

      not one of your proof verses is about "Believers in the Son"
      your verses are about those with hard and impenitent hearts, those who disobey, and the faithless
      address these verses

      1 Thessalonians 1:10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead— Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.

      1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

      Romans 5:9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through Him!

      John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.
      Oh, right, believers can never have hard hearts

      Hebrews 3
      12Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away [can't fall away from something you were never in] from the living God. 13But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened [become hardened--didn't start out that way] by the deceitfulness of sin. 14For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end. 15As it is said,
      “Today, if you hear his voice,
      do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”
      16For who were those who heard and yet rebelled? Was it not all those who left Egypt led by Moses? 17And with whom was he provoked for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? 18And to whom did he swear that they would not enter his rest, but to those who were disobedient?

      And why does he cite the OT passage?

      Because they apply to us--they were written for our instruction [Ro 15:4; 1 Co 10:11].
      Ro 3:3-8, 4:5; Gal 2:17 You must be ungodly to be justified.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Daniel. View Post

        Oh, right, believers can never have hard hearts

        Hebrews 3
        12Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away [can't fall away from something you were never in] from the living God. 13But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened [become hardened--didn't start out that way] by the deceitfulness of sin. 14For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end. 15As it is said,
        “Today, if you hear his voice,
        do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”
        16For who were those who heard and yet rebelled? Was it not all those who left Egypt led by Moses? 17And with whom was he provoked for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? 18And to whom did he swear that they would not enter his rest, but to those who were disobedient?

        And why does he cite the OT passage?

        Because they apply to us--they were written for our instruction [Ro 15:4; 1 Co 10:11].
        "unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away"
        they are not believers!
        One of the ekklēsia

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by tester View Post

          "unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away"
          they are not believers!
          Wrongo: the Hebrews were believers, and their hearts could BECOME HARDENED through the deceitfulness of sin, and the RESULT is the unbelieving heart.
          Ro 3:3-8, 4:5; Gal 2:17 You must be ungodly to be justified.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Daniel. View Post
            No....
            You're correct, but context is important. Romans 8:1 tells us there is now no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus. There Paul is speaking about the law and how justification and righteousness do not come by way of the law, but Christ instead. Similarly, John 3:18 tells us those who believe in Jesus are not condemned.

            That does not mean there aren't other forms of judgment, wrath, and condemnation. For example, in writing about the fledgling sectarianism creeping into the church at Corinth Paul writes that Christ alone is the sole foundation upon which anyone can build. People can build on that foundation with anything but everything will be tested and that which does not endure the testing will be burned up. However, if one built upon Christ s/he may exit that texting empty handed, charred and soot covered, but he will be saved.

            Those who didn't have Christ as their foundation weren't saved to begin with. Their's is the outcome of Matthew 7:23.
            "And then will I declare to them, ‘'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’'"
            All verses cited or quoted or in the NAS unless otherwise noted.

            “if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not win the prize unless he competes according to the rules.” (2 Tim. 2:5)

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Josheb View Post
              You're correct, but context is important. Romans 8:1 tells us there is now no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus. There Paul is speaking about the law and how justification and righteousness do not come by way of the law, but Christ instead.
              1. No, it's more specific than that: Paul describes the life of a lost Jew under the Law and "in the flesh" [Ro 7:5] against the freedom of the Christian under Grace and "in the Spirit" [Ro 8:9].

              2. The proof that Romans 8:1 is about "no condemnation" on account of the freedom from the Law of Sin in the flesh, such that they can fulfill the righteous requirement of the Law [Ro 8:4], is that Romans 8:12, 13 and 14:23 say that a Christian is "condemned" if and when they walk after the flesh instead of after the Spirit / in faith.

              Originally posted by Josheb View Post
              Similarly, John 3:18 tells us those who believe in Jesus are not condemned.
              That may have, packed within it, the assumption of good works. You as a Calvinist admit as much. Jesus says that at the resurrection the dead will come forth--those who have done good deeds to the resurrection of life [Jn 5:29].
              Romans 2:6-16 teaches the same thing--there is coming a judgment of works that will decide whether we retain eternal life or not. Matthew 25:26 is about that--Jesus's servants who do good enter, those who are "wicked" are engaged in "unprofitable deeds of darkness" and have their talent stripped from them and are thrown into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.

              Originally posted by Josheb View Post
              That does not mean there aren't other forms of judgment, wrath, and condemnation. For example, in writing about the fledgling sectarianism creeping into the church at Corinth Paul writes that Christ alone is the sole foundation upon which anyone can build. People can build on that foundation with anything but everything will be tested and that which does not endure the testing will be burned up. However, if one built upon Christ s/he may exit that texting empty handed, charred and soot covered, but he will be saved.
              Even according to Dr. James White, that passage doesn't refer to all Christians but only the faithful workers of the Gospel like Paul and Apollos.

              Originally posted by Josheb View Post
              Those who didn't have Christ as their foundation weren't saved to begin with. Their's is the outcome of Matthew 7:23.
              "And then will I declare to them, ‘'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’'"
              I don't agree. The way I see it is that the "talent" given people is a "measure of faith" [Ro 12:23]--and those who are unprofitable in the knowledge of the Lord have it taken away from them. Same as the unforgiving servant--he had had his sins forgiven ("saved from the corruption in the world through the knowledge of the Lord"), but then the forgiveness was rescinded.
              Ro 3:3-8, 4:5; Gal 2:17 You must be ungodly to be justified.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Daniel. View Post
                1. No, it's more specific than that: Paul describes the life of a lost Jew under the Law and "in the flesh" [Ro 7:5] against the freedom of the Christian under Grace and "in the Spirit" [Ro 8:9].

                2. The proof that Romans 8:1 is about "no condemnation" on account of the freedom from the Law of Sin in the flesh, such that they can fulfill the righteous requirement of the Law [Ro 8:4], is that Romans 8:12, 13 and 14:23 say that a Christian is "condemned" if and when they walk after the flesh instead of after the Spirit / in faith.


                That may have, packed within it, the assumption of good works. You as a Calvinist admit as much. Jesus says that at the resurrection the dead will come forth--those who have done good deeds to the resurrection of life [Jn 5:29].
                Romans 2:6-16 teaches the same thing--there is coming a judgment of works that will decide whether we retain eternal life or not. Matthew 25:26 is about that--Jesus's servants who do good enter, those who are "wicked" are engaged in "unprofitable deeds of darkness" and have their talent stripped from them and are thrown into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.


                Even according to Dr. James White, that passage doesn't refer to all Christians but only the faithful workers of the Gospel like Paul and Apollos.


                I don't agree. The way I see it is that the "talent" given people is a "measure of faith" [Ro 12:23]--and those who are unprofitable in the knowledge of the Lord have it taken away from them. Same as the unforgiving servant--he had had his sins forgiven ("saved from the corruption in the world through the knowledge of the Lord"), but then the forgiveness was rescinded.
                I don't read anything in there that addresses my point: Not all mentions of wrath are alike. Not all mentions of condemned are alike. Not all mentions of judgment are alike. Contextually different mentions should not be conflated, and whatever the distinctions they must be synthesized into a congruous whole because scripture never contradicts scripture.

                What I read is more the same pitting scripture against scripture to divide the body of Christ.

                My being Calvinist is irrelevant and the appeal to White is fallacious. Scripture says what is says.

                The measure of faith is something God gives believes. Unbelievers do not have faith do not have faith in Christ; they have no measure of relevant faith. So you're completely incorrect about the way you see it. That passage was written to believers about believers.

                Those to whom the blood of Christ has been applied by God cannot deny God that purchase. That would make man more powerful than God. People are either saved or they are not saved. Those saved bear fruit in either small or large amount. The difficulty comes in discerning who is not bearing fruit because they are not saved and those who bear little fruit because of their slothful disobedience.





                Perhaps, that is if we're going to have a discussion, you would post a single thesis statement. What is is exactly you think is the scriptural position? Because you seem to be discussing something more than whether or not Christians can experience God's wrath.

                All verses cited or quoted or in the NAS unless otherwise noted.

                “if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not win the prize unless he competes according to the rules.” (2 Tim. 2:5)

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Josheb View Post
                  I don't read anything in there that addresses my point: Not all mentions of wrath are alike. Not all mentions of condemned are alike. Not all mentions of judgment are alike. Contextually different mentions should not be conflated, and whatever the distinctions they must be synthesized into a congruous whole because scripture never contradicts scripture.

                  What I read is more the same pitting scripture against scripture to divide the body of Christ.

                  My being Calvinist is irrelevant and the appeal to White is fallacious. Scripture says what is says.

                  The measure of faith is something God gives believes. Unbelievers do not have faith do not have faith in Christ; they have no measure of relevant faith. So you're completely incorrect about the way you see it. That passage was written to believers about believers.

                  Those to whom the blood of Christ has been applied by God cannot deny God that purchase. That would make man more powerful than God. People are either saved or they are not saved. Those saved bear fruit in either small or large amount. The difficulty comes in discerning who is not bearing fruit because they are not saved and those who bear little fruit because of their slothful disobedience.





                  Perhaps, that is if we're going to have a discussion, you would post a single thesis statement. What is is exactly you think is the scriptural position? Because you seem to be discussing something more than whether or not Christians can experience God's wrath.
                  That's fine. "I don't read anything in there that addresses my point."
                  Ro 3:3-8, 4:5; Gal 2:17 You must be ungodly to be justified.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Daniel. View Post
                    That's fine. "I don't read anything in there that addresses my point."
                    Hmm... So you post an op in the wrong board based on a quote-mine from another poster and when someone tries to address the issue and the response is to ignore the salient point with straw men and appeals to authority. The when that's noted and a thesis is requested the response is "That's fine."

                    I'll let you have that nonsense.

                    All verses cited or quoted or in the NAS unless otherwise noted.

                    “if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not win the prize unless he competes according to the rules.” (2 Tim. 2:5)

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Josheb View Post
                      Hmm... So you post an op in the wrong board based on a quote-mine from another poster and when someone tries to address the issue and the response is to ignore the salient point with straw men and appeals to authority. The when that's noted and a thesis is requested the response is "That's fine."

                      I'll let you have that nonsense.
                      I addressed your point, but the first thing you say is "you didn't address my point".
                      I don't care enough about any thing you have to say to play these games.
                      Believe what ever you please. Entertain yourself.
                      Goodbye.
                      Ro 3:3-8, 4:5; Gal 2:17 You must be ungodly to be justified.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Josheb View Post
                        Hmm... So you post an op in the wrong board based on a quote-mine from another poster
                        I don't remember making this OP; my guess is that they just took my response to his OP and put it here as an OP.
                        Ro 3:3-8, 4:5; Gal 2:17 You must be ungodly to be justified.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Daniel. View Post
                          I addressed your point, but the first thing you say is "you didn't address my point".
                          The posts speak for themselves and the posts show nothing of consequence was posted about the diversity with which scripture speaks of wrath, condemnation, and judgment, or how it reconciles with the verses I and tester have posted saying there is no lawful or eternal condemnation for Christians. You have now had at leat two opportunites to address those concerns and haven't, despite your protests to the contrary.
                          Originally posted by Daniel. View Post
                          I don't care enough about any thing you have to say to play these games.
                          Then don'tr play them. Respond relevantly and cogently and there won't be any cause for complaint by anyone. At this point it appears you've written an op you weren't wholly prepared to odefend and now that some legitimate concerns have been broached the discourse is falling apart on you, as evidenced by the earlier comments about Calinism and White and not your lack of interest and my believing whatever I want. None of that is relevant. You can either address the salient concerns or you can't You will either address the salient concerns or you won't and if you don't then you'll either do so blaming me for you lack of response or you won't. Under no circumstance is "Believe what ever you please. Entertain yourself," a polite and respectful, reasonable and rational, cogent and topical response.

                          All that was asked of you was to post a single thesis statement so 1) we'd know exactly what it is we're discussing and 2) your position on that topic, clearly stated.

                          Why would any poster posting with authentic intent refuse that request?
                          Originally posted by Daniel
                          I don't remember making this OP; my guess is that they just took my response to his OP and put it here as an OP.
                          You don't remember writing and posting this op? You don't remember writing "No..." in response to tester's thesis, "Any interpretation of Scripture that has "believers in the Son" falling under the wrath of God must be in error: agreed?"?

                          If that's the case then you have my sympathies but I'm doubtful because the forum takes the handle of the writer and posts it to the post being created. If this isn't your content then why are you defending and doing so rudely? Why would that prevent the posting of a thesis statement that does better clarify your position on the matter? Why not post a single response to the op saying, "I did not write this op," and then seek correction or redress from the mods?






                          No matter who wrote the op my position is to disagree with the statement attributed to tester as written. Christians do fall under judgment, wrath, and condemnation but none of it is eternal.

                          Not all mentions of wrath, condemnation, or judgment are alike in scripture. Scripture often uses like terms in diverse ways. Contextually different mentions should not be conflated, and whatever the distinctions they must be synthesized into a congruous whole because scripture never contradicts scripture.When it comes to the three issues listed (wrath, condemnation, and judgment) we must avoid pitting scripture against scripture in a manner that divides the body of Christ into those condemned and therefore covered with an impotent purchase and those not condemned because the purchase was effective. Those to whom the blood of Christ has been applied by God cannot deny God that purchase; that would make man more powerful than God.

                          The measure of faith is something God gives believes. Unbelievers do not have faith do not have faith in Christ; they have no measure of relevant faith. So you're completely incorrect about the way you see it. That passage was written to believers about believers. People are either saved or they are not saved. Those saved bear fruit in either small or large amount. The difficulty comes in discerning who is not bearing fruit because they are not saved and those who bear little fruit because of their slothful disobedience.
                          All verses cited or quoted or in the NAS unless otherwise noted.

                          “if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not win the prize unless he competes according to the rules.” (2 Tim. 2:5)

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Josheb View Post
                            The posts speak for themselves and the posts show nothing of consequence was posted about the diversity with which scripture speaks of wrath, condemnation, and judgment, or how it reconciles with the verses I and tester have posted saying there is no lawful or eternal condemnation for Christians. You have now had at leat two opportunites to address those concerns and haven't, despite your protests to the contrary.
                            Actually, what I did was I disproved your point (that there was now "NO condemnation"), but you had hoped to downplay my point by trying to show there are different kinds of condemnation. Oh then the line ought to have read "there is SOME condemnation, but it's like a different kind of condemnation--hold on, just hear me out!". LOL Condemnation is the opposite of justification. I showed that there was "condemnation" for a Christian who sins Ro 14:23, and that that corresponded exactly to Ro 8:1 (the "no condemnation" was about being able to fulfill the Law instead of breaking it and bringing condemnation on oneself). Some actually stipulate "for those in Christ who walk after the Spirit and not after the flesh", corresponding to Ro 8:12, 13 where it says Christians will "die" and not "live" if they walk after the flesh. This "death" corresponds to the "death" Adam suffered when he sinned, and the wrath the Jewish believers in Rome were storing up for themselves [Ro 2:5], since it would have meant they were not going to be repaid eternal life on that Day, but fall into that other category [Ro 2:6-16]), as well as Matthew 25 (which had already been mentioned) which teaches the same (the productive servants of Jesus enter the Kingdom, while unproductive servants of Jesus (unproductive because they were engaged in "unfruitful works of darkness" Ep 5:11--"wicked lazy servant") are thrown into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth). If you want to say that those are just little tiny not-the-same-as-condemnation sorts of condemnation, have at it. Enjoy.

                            Originally posted by Josheb View Post
                            At this point it appears you've written an op you weren't wholly prepared to odefend and now that some legitimate concerns have been broached the discourse is falling apart on you
                            No, I did not write an OP. I wrote a response to an OP, and someone must have complained that it was off-topic somehow, so they clipped it and moved it here.

                            Originally posted by Josheb View Post
                            as evidenced by the earlier comments about Calinism and White
                            That passage [1 Co 3] isn't the only passage on the Judgment that we see. You have to ask yourself why it differs so radically.
                            James White gives the reason: it's about God's faithful workers.
                            Starting at 17:07


                            Originally posted by Josheb View Post
                            and not your lack of interest and my believing whatever I want.
                            I have been engaged in other discussions. This is an older discussion I thought was already done. Then, out of nowhere, they clip a reply I made to someone's OP, and put it here. No, I really wasn't interested in having the conversation--especially not with you.

                            Originally posted by Josheb View Post
                            You can either address the salient concerns or you can't You will either address the salient concerns or you won't and if you don't then you'll either do so blaming me for you lack of response or you won't. Under no circumstance is "Believe what ever you please. Entertain yourself," a polite and respectful, reasonable and rational, cogent and topical response.
                            In my opinion. you are an unnecessarily aggressive person, so I don't think you have the right to ask anyone to treat you extra daintily.

                            Originally posted by Josheb View Post
                            Why would any poster posting with authentic intent refuse that request?
                            You've just misunderstood: I never posted this as an OP. If you'd only followed the comment back to its source (every quote box links back to the original quote) you'd've seen that.

                            Originally posted by Josheb View Post
                            You don't remember writing "No..." in response to tester's thesis, "Any interpretation of Scripture that has "believers in the Son" falling under the wrath of God must be in error: agreed?"?

                            If that's the case then you have my sympathies but I'm doubtful because the forum takes the handle of the writer and posts it to the post being created. If this isn't your content then why are you defending and doing so rudely? Why would that prevent the posting of a thesis statement that does better clarify your position on the matter? Why not post a single response to the op saying, "I did not write this op," and then seek correction or redress from the mods?
                            This is a response (that someone must've complained was "off-topic"--even though it was clearly on-topic) to an OP.

                            Originally posted by Josheb View Post
                            No matter who wrote the op my position is to disagree with the statement attributed to tester as written. Christians do fall under judgment, wrath, and condemnation but none of it is eternal.
                            Well, the group that gets wrath (in Ro 2:6-16, and Mt 25:26) aren't the ones who are repaid eternal life or who merit entrance into the Kingdom of God.

                            Originally posted by Josheb View Post
                            Not all mentions of wrath, condemnation, or judgment are alike in scripture.
                            That is irrelevant: the passages I am referring to show that eternal life and entrance into the Kingdom will be decided by those instances of judgment.

                            Originally posted by Josheb View Post
                            Contextually different mentions should not be conflated, and whatever the distinctions they must be synthesized into a congruous whole because scripture never contradicts scripture.
                            The condemned groups in Ro 2 and Mt 25 do not obtain eternal life or entrance into the Kingdom.

                            Originally posted by Josheb View Post
                            When it comes to the three issues listed (wrath, condemnation, and judgment) we must avoid pitting scripture against scripture in a manner that divides the body of Christ into those condemned and therefore covered with an impotent purchase and those not condemned because the purchase was effective.
                            The issue isn't whether the purchase was effective--in the parable of the unforgiving servant, the purchase wasn't ineffective, it was just rescinded as a response to the servant's actions. Those to whom the blood of Christ has been applied by God cannot deny God that purchase; that would make man more powerful than God.

                            Originally posted by Josheb View Post
                            The measure of faith is something God gives believes. Unbelievers do not have faith do not have faith in Christ; they have no measure of relevant faith.
                            Yeah, I know: the unproductive ("unfruitful in the knowledge of the Lord"--not glorifying God, thus spreading the knowledge of the Lord, by not doing what is right, which righteousness is the way to glorify the Lord according to Mt 5:16 "let your light so shine that men may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven") has his talent ("measure of faith") stripped from him, damning him. This is the same as when the forgiveness (which forgiveness is obtained by faith) is rescinded in the parable of the unforgiving servant.

                            Originally posted by Josheb View Post
                            So you're completely incorrect about the way you see it. That passage was written to believers about believers. People are either saved or they are not saved. Those saved bear fruit in either small or large amount. The difficulty comes in discerning who is not bearing fruit because they are not saved and those who bear little fruit because of their slothful disobedience.
                            Salvation from Egypt is not a guarantee of a life lived pleasingly to God 1 Co 10:1-11. All believers are "saved" from bondage (Egypt was the House of Bondage) to the Law of Sin in the body of sin [Ro 6:6, 7:1-25], but some desire to go back to Egypt [Ro 8:12, 13] and will fall under God's wrath and not obtain eternal life [Ro 2:6-16].
                            Last edited by Daniel.; 01-07-19, 11:55 AM.
                            Ro 3:3-8, 4:5; Gal 2:17 You must be ungodly to be justified.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Daniel. View Post
                              Actually, what I did was I disproved your point (that there was now "NO condemnation"), but you had hoped to downplay my point by trying to show there are different kinds of condemnation.
                              Posts prove otherwise.
                              Originally posted by Daniel. View Post
                              Oh then the line ought to have read "there is SOME condemnation, but it's like a different kind of condemnation--hold on, just hear me out!"
                              Which is what was said in words different than your own.

                              And you didn't respond to that content.
                              Originally posted by Daniel. View Post
                              Condemnation is the opposite of justification.
                              Now here I get to hold you to your own words and your own standards: SOME condemnation is the opposite of justification and some condemnation versus justification has to do with one's eternal disposition and some does not.
                              Originally posted by Daniel. View Post
                              I showed that there was "condemnation" for a Christian who sins Ro 14:23, and that that corresponded exactly to Ro 8:1 (the "no condemnation" was about being able to fulfill the Law instead of breaking it and bringing condemnation on oneself).
                              Yes, you did do that and in doing so conflated different types of condemnation. I stated these differing types of condemnation should not be conflated and it was ignored, then miocked, and now the very problem to be addressed is being repeated. Romans 14:23 will not in any way shape or form result in a person's loss of salvation. It does, however, have to do with their effectiveness in Christ.

                              You are proving me correct, Daniel.

                              So let me encourage you to take amoment and try to "step outside" your posts and re-read them as someone other than yourself might understand what's posted.



                              Because if it is being suggest a person can or will lose their salvation because their faith in Christ is inconsistent with their eating food offered to idols that are nothing then that is incorrect and we should be discussing that so you'll gain a correct understanding. And if that's not what is being asserted then I should be reading some message of agreement so we can either discuss it for the benefit of other readers or we can move onto another example of in-Christ condemnation.
                              Originally posted by Daniel. View Post
                              No, I did not write an OP. I wrote a response to an OP, and someone must have complained that it was off-topic somehow, so they clipped it and moved it here.
                              Then all the more reason for you to state your thesis or ignore the op.
                              All verses cited or quoted or in the NAS unless otherwise noted.

                              “if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not win the prize unless he competes according to the rules.” (2 Tim. 2:5)

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