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Does God approve of Rebellion?

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  • Does God approve of Rebellion?

    It has been established in Numbers 16 that when Korah rebelled against Moses (i.e. seat of moses) then God dispatched them into the pit.

    So when the Reformers rebelled against the Catholic Church? Why would God approve of this rebellion given the precedence?

    What do Catholics think?

  • #2
    Moved from RCC board.

    Off topic. RCC board is not to discuss Reformers.
    Last edited by 4Him; 01-09-19, 10:34 PM.
    ~~~My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My Father's hand~~~

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    • #3
      n/p

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      • #4
        Well, Jesus could be said to have been in rebellion against the Pharisees and Sadducees. It was bad enough that they crucified Jesus.
        Allen (Unless noted otherwise, Bible quotations are from the 1984 edition of the NIV)

        Faith--Sees the invisible, believes the incredible, and receives the impossible.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by AlFin View Post
          Well, Jesus could be said to have been in rebellion against the Pharisees and Sadducees. It was bad enough that they crucified Jesus.
          Nope, Jesus never spoke against the authority of seat of Moses.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by CatholicScripture View Post

            Nope, Jesus never spoke against the authority of seat of Moses.
            I didn't say he did.

            Matt 23:1-7
            1 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. 3 So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4 They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.

            5 "Everything they do is done for men to see: They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long; 6 they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; 7 they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them 'Rabbi.'
            NIV

            Still, they crucified Jesus.
            Allen (Unless noted otherwise, Bible quotations are from the 1984 edition of the NIV)

            Faith--Sees the invisible, believes the incredible, and receives the impossible.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by AlFin View Post

              I didn't say he did.

              Matt 23:1-7
              1 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. 3 So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4 They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.

              5 "Everything they do is done for men to see: They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long; 6 they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; 7 they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them 'Rabbi.'
              NIV

              Still, they crucified Jesus.
              So? He never spoke against it. God doesn't work in rebellion.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by CatholicScripture View Post
                It has been established in Numbers 16 that when Korah rebelled against Moses (i.e. seat of moses) then God dispatched them into the pit.

                So when the Reformers rebelled against the Catholic Church? Why would God approve of this rebellion given the precedence?

                What do Catholics think?
                The original reformers didn't rebel against the RC. That premise betrays the facts of history. They are called the "Protestant Reformation" and not the "Rebel Reformation" for a reason; they wanted reform, not rebellion. The facts of history show that all of the originals were themselves RCs and their desire was to remain so. It was only because the RC sought to have them killed that they departed.

                So every time the Reformers are falsely accused of rebellion it inextricably points to murderous intent and behavior on the part of the RC.


                When Martin Luther nailed his 95 Theses on the door of the Wittenberg church it should have been a simple matter, a simple matter simply and decisively addressed according to scripture - one the RC did eventually address in favor of Luther's position (proving Luther correct). That is why God would approve of the Reformation. The RC should be making amends to Luther and humbly inviting Protestants back into the fold with repentance (Note: in January of 2016 the Pope asked forgiveness for the "un-gospel like" behavior toward Prots and "the sin of our divisions.").*

                That's why you should understand God's approval of the Reformation given the precedent of Korah.




                There's another problem with this op. It presents a red herring by way of twisting scripture to glorify the RC in idolatrous manner. The rebellion of Korah was a rebellion against God and God's appointed agent of sound and just leadership. Korah and his group sought to overthrow and replace Moses and the priesthood. Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, etc. sought no such thing. So you've got false equivalence at the root of your op, CS. Second, Korah's rebellion was an indirect rebellion against God (vs 11), and as a result God Himself acted decisively to eradicate the problem. In the case of the Protestant Reformation it proved the RC was the wrongdoer, persisted in the wrongdoing until political expediency forced its hand, and God's judgment was decisive: the RC could no longer lay claim to an exclusive authoritative relationship with God. Had the Korah rebellion been a valid and veracious comparison we'd see the earth opening to swallow all the Prots before they became too numerous.

                That's why you should understand God's approval of the Reformation given the precedent of Korah.



                Lastly, when viewed objectively ecclesiastic history can correctly be seen as a series of reforms, some consolidating thought, doctrine, and practice and others diversifying it. This theme even runs backward beyond the NT era into Jewish history. For example, the prevailing institution in Jesus' day was that of the Sadducees. They had been in singular authority many centuries before the last of the OT prophets, doctrinally even long before they were called Sadducees. Around the time of Malachi and the inter-testament period three other groups arose, the Pharisees, the Essenes, and the Zealots (the latter being a primarily political movement with a messianic and apocalyptic focus). We see in the gospels the first and most authoritative institution, the Sadducees, proved to be completely incorrect and the vehicle for the murder of our Lord and Savior, Jesus the Messiah. The only leadership converts recorded in the NT are all Pharisees; there's no record in the Bible of a single Sadducee ever converting to Christ. We understand this impart because of the doctrinal difference between the Sad and the Phars: the belief in life after death (Mk. 12:18, Acts 23:8). In other words, their entire institution was teaching falsely, unrepentantly, refused valid and just correction when given the opportunity to self-correct, and was thereby instrumental in and culpable for murder.


                That's why you should understand God's approval of the Reformation given the precedent of Korah.


                The same proves true of the Zealots in less direct manner. A Zealot (Judas) was used by God to betray Christ, and the Zealots as a whole were used to bring judgment upon all of Israel and the religious leadership in 70 a.d. Their own corruption was so replete that God had to use pagans to destroy tthe whole lot of them, just as He had centuries earlier with Babylon and Assyria. God has cleaned house many times in history, and the Great Schism and the Protestant Reformation were just of many examples.




                It all boils down to the simple fact that the RC was corrupt, change was warranted, and it did eventually occur (The RC had its own in-house reformation). Luther's protest occurred solely because no one would listen when they should have and in the end he was proven correct and the warranted changes occurred any way. The problem was RC had already chased those they'd incorrectly and unjustly considered enemies away and never made amends to rectify that situation. So the RC doesn't have anyone but itself to blame for the Protestant Reformation.








                *On the anniversary of the Protestant Reformation Catholic and Lutheran leaders issued a statement saying, "We begged forgiveness for our failures and for the ways in which Christians have wounded the Body of the Lord and offended each other during the five hundred years since the beginning of the Reformation until today." Apparently, you, CatholicScripture, didn't get that memo.
                All verses cited or quoted or in the NAS unless otherwise noted.

                “if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not win the prize unless he competes according to the rules.” (2 Tim. 2:5)

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by CatholicScripture View Post
                  Nope...
                  "Nope"?

                  Are you saying Jesus didn't resist, repudiate, and judge the Sadducees and Pharisees who were in authority in his day?
                  Originally posted by CatholicScripture View Post
                  Jesus never spoke against the authority of seat of Moses.
                  No, he did not, but aside form the fact that has nothing to do with AlFin's point, Jesus did speak about Moses' error in granting divorce. God Himself repudiated Moses' actions at Meribah and prevented him from entering the Promised Land.
                  All verses cited or quoted or in the NAS unless otherwise noted.

                  “if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not win the prize unless he competes according to the rules.” (2 Tim. 2:5)

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by CatholicScripture View Post
                    It has been established in Numbers 16 that when Korah rebelled against Moses (i.e. seat of moses) then God dispatched them into the pit.

                    So when the Reformers rebelled against the Catholic Church? Why would God approve of this rebellion given the precedence?

                    What do Catholics think?
                    The New Covenant operates differently!
                    - Do for others as you would want them to do for you: this is the foundation of the Law of Moses and of the teachings of the prophets. -

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by CatholicScripture View Post
                      It has been established in Numbers 16 that when Korah rebelled against Moses (i.e. seat of moses) then God dispatched them into the pit.

                      So when the Reformers rebelled against the Catholic Church? Why would God approve of this rebellion given the precedence?

                      What do Catholics think?
                      The RCC was in rebellion long before the Reformers came along. The sin of the RCC was in substituting the laws of man for the laws of God. Matthew 15:1-9. The Reformer were calling sin by its right name through the Bible.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by CatholicScripture View Post
                        It has been established in Numbers 16 that when Korah rebelled against Moses (i.e. seat of moses) then God dispatched them into the pit.

                        So when the Reformers rebelled against the Catholic Church? Why would God approve of this rebellion given the precedence?

                        What do Catholics think?
                        I think it depends what you define as Rebellion, people are breaking away from. Jesus challenged some Jewish religious leaders of his day because they had traded in God's word for traditions, and committed other grievances. If the reformers took exception to Catholic practices, such as indulgences, in an effort to help people come back to God, why would God disapprove of that?

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