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Can anyone defend Paul's misuse of scripture in Romans 3?

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  • Can anyone defend Paul's misuse of scripture in Romans 3?

    Can anyone defend Paul's misuse of scripture in Romans 3? There, he throws together many passages from Psalms and Proverbs, ripped out of context, largely misquoted, and abused and misused massively.

    For example, he misquotes and abuses Psalm 14:1-4 (same as Psalm 53:1-4). [Actually he skips verse 1, which is the problem.]

    Psalm 14 or 53 verse 1 limited the comments to ATHEISTS:

    Psalm 14:1 "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good."

    "There is none that doeth good" is contextually limited to the atheists, i.e. "there is none [of them] that doeth good."

    Psalm 14 or 53 verse 2 is continuing to talk about ATHEISTS:

    Psalm 14:2 "The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God."

    Are there any atheists that seek God?

    Psalm 14:3 "They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one."

    No atheist does good, they are all filthy, they have all gone aside (implying, by the way, that they were born sinless).

    Ok, now what does Paul do with this? He mangles it!

    Romans 3

    9 What then? are we [Gentiles] better than they [Jews]? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

    10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

    11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

    12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

    13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:


    Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:14
    Notice how he has deceptively mixed in other contexts with Psalm 14 without admitting it (beginning with "Their throat is an open sepulchre", from Psalm 5, speaking of "foolish workers of iniquity" who are the Psalmist's "enemies"), and purposefully left off the opening that limits Psalm 14 (or 53) to ATHEISTS. DECEIT!
    15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:

    16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:

    17 And the way of peace have they not known:

    18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

    19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
    Invalid conclusions arrived at by twisting scripture.

    Now, notice further, how he mangles Psalm 14.

    Psalm 14 does not say "There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God."

    Psalm 14 says "The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God."

    And "the children of men" there was already limited to atheists by verse 1. The Psalm, whether 14 or 53, is NOT saying that nobody ever seeks God. He misuses it as if its saying that, when in reality it is saying that ATHEISTS don't seek God.

    And all the trouble we have to deal with today with Calvinism and all that nonsense is caused by us being forced to accept this misuse of Psalm 14 as an inspired misuse. Well, no longer. Paul is wrong, period. Anyone want to provide a defense of this deceit, go ahead. But I will not defend it, nor will I put up with Romans 3:11 being thrown in my face as a taunt "There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God" as if this lying misquotation and ripping of Psalm 14:2 out of context has any validity. Any theology based on Romans 3:11 will be in error, because Romans 3:11 is deception.

  • #2
    Originally posted by davidbrainerd View Post
    Can anyone defend Paul's misuse of scripture in Romans 3? There, he throws together many passages from Psalms and Proverbs, ripped out of context, largely misquoted, and abused and misused massively.

    For example, he misquotes and abuses Psalm 14:1-4 (same as Psalm 53:1-4). [Actually he skips verse 1, which is the problem.]

    Psalm 14 or 53 verse 1 limited the comments to ATHEISTS:

    Psalm 14:1 "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good."

    "There is none that doeth good" is contextually limited to the atheists, i.e. "there is none [of them] that doeth good."

    Psalm 14 or 53 verse 2 is continuing to talk about ATHEISTS:

    Psalm 14:2 "The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God."

    Are there any atheists that seek God?

    Psalm 14:3 "They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one."

    No atheist does good, they are all filthy, they have all gone aside (implying, by the way, that they were born sinless).

    Ok, now what does Paul do with this? He mangles it!

    Romans 3

    9 What then? are we [Gentiles] better than they [Jews]? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

    10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

    11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

    12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

    13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:


    Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:14
    Notice how he has deceptively mixed in other contexts with Psalm 14 without admitting it, and purposefully left off the opening that limits Psalm 14 (or 53) to ATHEISTS. DECEIT!
    15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:

    16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:

    17 And the way of peace have they not known:

    18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

    19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
    Invalid conclusions arrived at by twisting scripture.

    Now, notice further, how he mangles Psalm 14.

    Psalm 14 does not say "There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God."

    Psalm 14 says "The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God."

    And "the children of men" there was already limited to atheists by verse 1. The Psalm, whether 14 or 53, is NOT saying that nobody ever seeks God. He misuses it as if its saying that, when in reality it is saying that ATHEISTS don't seek God.

    And all the trouble we have to deal with today with Calvinism and all that nonsense is caused by us being forced to accept this misuse of Psalm 14 as an inspired misuse. Well, no longer. Paul is wrong, period. Anyone want to provide a defense of this deceit, go ahead. But I will not defend it, nor will I put up with Romans 3:11 being thrown in my face as a taunt "There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God" as if this lying misquotation and ripping of Psalm 14:2 out of context has any validity. Any theology based on Romans 3:11 will be in error, because Romans 3:11 is deception.
    Oh dear, you are going to be in trouble with those who have been brainwashed into putting Paul on a par with, and often ABOVE Jesus! Let's see what you get!
    Fellow posters, pls don’t complain about my "divisive" views! “…The Apologetics Forum is for the purpose of answering and debating those with different beliefs or disagreeing with Christian beliefs....We do not remove heretics…”(source CARM, above)

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Truth-quest View Post

      Oh dear, you are going to be in trouble with those who have been brainwashed into putting Paul on a par with, and often ABOVE Jesus! Let's see what you get!
      Paul is never on par with Jesus Christ. He was merely chosen by God to Preach the Gospel: Christ and him crucified.
      Learn to expect the impossible, expect the unusual, and expect the miraculous, because that is where God works.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Truth-quest View Post

        Oh dear, you are going to be in trouble with those who have been brainwashed into putting Paul on a par with, and often ABOVE Jesus! Let's see what you get!
        Interesting that you phrase it that way, or I wouldn't have thought of this verse:

        Matthew 7:7-8 "Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened."

        I'm sure the Calvinist reply to Matthew 7:7 would be "No, that doesn't apply to people who haven't been zapped by magic Calvinist enabling power [erroneously referred to as grace] yet, because Paul says 'there is none that seeketh God' in Romans 3:11." Well the Psalm Paul is mangling says no atheist seeks God, and Jesus says people can seek (and even find!), so Paul loses.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by davidbrainerd View Post
          Can anyone defend Paul's misuse of scripture in Romans 3? There, he throws together many passages from Psalms and Proverbs, ripped out of context, largely misquoted, and abused and misused massively.

          For example, he misquotes and abuses Psalm 14:1-4 (same as Psalm 53:1-4). [Actually he skips verse 1, which is the problem.]

          Psalm 14 or 53 verse 1 limited the comments to ATHEISTS:

          Psalm 14:1 "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good."

          "There is none that doeth good" is contextually limited to the atheists, i.e. "there is none [of them] that doeth good."

          Psalm 14 or 53 verse 2 is continuing to talk about ATHEISTS:

          Psalm 14:2 "The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God."

          Are there any atheists that seek God?

          Psalm 14:3 "They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one."

          No atheist does good, they are all filthy, they have all gone aside (implying, by the way, that they were born sinless).

          Ok, now what does Paul do with this? He mangles it!

          Romans 3

          9 What then? are we [Gentiles] better than they [Jews]? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

          10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

          11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

          12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

          13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:


          Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:14
          Notice how he has deceptively mixed in other contexts with Psalm 14 without admitting it (beginning with "Their throat is an open sepulchre", from Psalm 5, speaking of "foolish workers of iniquity" who are the Psalmist's "enemies"), and purposefully left off the opening that limits Psalm 14 (or 53) to ATHEISTS. DECEIT!
          15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:

          16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:

          17 And the way of peace have they not known:

          18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

          19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
          Invalid conclusions arrived at by twisting scripture.

          Now, notice further, how he mangles Psalm 14.

          Psalm 14 does not say "There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God."

          Psalm 14 says "The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God."

          And "the children of men" there was already limited to atheists by verse 1. The Psalm, whether 14 or 53, is NOT saying that nobody ever seeks God. He misuses it as if its saying that, when in reality it is saying that ATHEISTS don't seek God.

          And all the trouble we have to deal with today with Calvinism and all that nonsense is caused by us being forced to accept this misuse of Psalm 14 as an inspired misuse. Well, no longer. Paul is wrong, period. Anyone want to provide a defense of this deceit, go ahead. But I will not defend it, nor will I put up with Romans 3:11 being thrown in my face as a taunt "There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God" as if this lying misquotation and ripping of Psalm 14:2 out of context has any validity. Any theology based on Romans 3:11 will be in error, because Romans 3:11 is deception.
          You sound like Bart Ehrman. Casting doubt on the Bible's inspiration.
          Learn to expect the impossible, expect the unusual, and expect the miraculous, because that is where God works.

          Comment


          • #6
            Psalm 9:10
            "And they that know thy name will put their trust in thee: for thou, Lord, hast not forsaken them that seek thee."

            How interesting, since Paul says nobody seeks him.

            Psalm 22:26
            "The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the Lord that seek him: your heart shall live for ever."

            So people do seek the Lord.

            Psalm 40:16
            "Let all those that seek thee rejoice and be glad in thee: let such as love thy salvation say continually, The Lord be magnified."

            Psalm 69:6
            "Let not them that wait on thee, O Lord God of hosts, be ashamed for my sake: let not those that seek thee be confounded for my sake, O God of Israel."

            Psalm 105:3
            "Glory ye in his holy name: let the heart of them rejoice that seek the Lord."

            Psalm 105:4
            "Seek the Lord, and his strength: seek his face evermore."

            Proverbs 28:5
            "Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the Lord understand all things."

            EVEN THE PAUL OF ACTS SAYS MEN CAN SEEK THE LORD:

            Acts 17:27
            "That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:"

            But the Paul of Romans 3

            Romans 3:11
            "There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God."

            Houston, we have a problem!

            addendum: Proverbs 28:5 is closest in wording to Romans 3:11, but look what IT says.

            Comment


            • #7
              Of course unbrainwashed people "cast doubt on" anything that cannot be proven!

              Originally posted by Ansel07 View Post
              You sound like Bart Ehrman. Casting doubt on the Bible's inspiration.
              If you think that the Bible is literally "the word of God", then PROVE it.

              Fellow posters, pls don’t complain about my "divisive" views! “…The Apologetics Forum is for the purpose of answering and debating those with different beliefs or disagreeing with Christian beliefs....We do not remove heretics…”(source CARM, above)

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Ansel07 View Post
                Paul is never on par with Jesus Christ.
                Then why do establishment-followers quote him more often than they quote Jesus?
                He was merely chosen by God to Preach the Gospel: Christ and him crucifie

                Try proving that one too without Paul being a witness for himself (which, as Jesus said, is not valid)! It is also known as a logical fallacy of circular reasoning.
                Fellow posters, pls don’t complain about my "divisive" views! “…The Apologetics Forum is for the purpose of answering and debating those with different beliefs or disagreeing with Christian beliefs....We do not remove heretics…”(source CARM, above)

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Ansel07 View Post

                  You sound like Bart Ehrman. Casting doubt on the Bible's inspiration.
                  Not really, because despite Paul clearly being wrong and deceptive in Romans 3, the Bible can smooth it out, if you bother to read the whole thing. For instance, if you harmonize:

                  Proverbs 28:5
                  "Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the Lord understand all things."

                  and

                  Romans 3:11
                  "There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God."

                  What do you get?

                  That people do seek God after all [and that those who seek after God do understand!]. So then you look at the context of Psalm 14 that Paul mangled, see its about atheists, and correct Romans 3:11 with the rest of scripture.

                  Then throw in Acts, where Paul is speaking,

                  Acts 17:27
                  "That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:"

                  And Paul believes men seek God after all too!

                  So then, we find that the Bible is self correcting. This does not show that Romans 3:11 is correct. It shows that when there is an error in one place, the Bible corrects that error in several others. In other words, if Paul screws up, the Bible corrects it elsewhere, as clearly Acts 17:27 and Proverbs 28:5 correct Romans 3:11's blunder. So then you can still say the Bible is inspired on the whole, but Romans 3:11 in particular is not. I don't think Bart Ehrman would say that.
                  Last edited by davidbrainerd; 08-24-17, 08:26 AM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Truth-quest View Post
                    Then why do establishment-followers quote him more often than they quote Jesus?


                    Try proving that one too without Paul being a witness for himself (which, as Jesus said, is not valid)! It is also known as a logical fallacy of circular reasoning.
                    You are another one who questions the authenticity of the word of God. Sad.
                    Learn to expect the impossible, expect the unusual, and expect the miraculous, because that is where God works.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Ansel07 View Post

                      You are another one who questions the authenticity of the word of God. Sad.
                      Explain Proverbs 28:5 "Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the Lord understand all things." and Romans 3:11 "There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God." together. I'll wait.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by davidbrainerd View Post
                        Can anyone defend Paul's misuse of scripture in Romans 3? There, he throws together many passages from Psalms and Proverbs, ripped out of context, largely misquoted, and abused and misused massively....


                        ...And all the trouble we have to deal with today with Calvinism and all that nonsense is caused by us being forced to accept this misuse of Psalm 14 as an inspired misuse. Well, no longer. Paul is wrong, period. Anyone want to provide a defense of this deceit, go ahead. But I will not defend it, nor will I put up with Romans 3:11 being thrown in my face as a taunt "There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God" as if this lying misquotation and ripping of Psalm 14:2 out of context has any validity. Any theology based on Romans 3:11 will be in error, because Romans 3:11 is deception.
                        Hi Dave:
                        Since you have come to the logical conclusion that the bible is not God's complete and inerrant word, I say congratulations:-) However, now that you understand that truth, you have to realize that your basic bible beliefs were taught to you be people who believed that every word in the bible came directly from God's mouth. You cannot now simply assume that your preconceived beliefs are correct. In order to remain honest, you must now figure out how to confirm or deny all the verses on which your preconceptions are based.
                        I came to that conclusion years ago, and stopped reading the bible for doctrinally selected verses, and started reading the bible for it's continuity of the story which begins with God preaching His everlasting gospel to Abraham.
                        There is no proof for anything, but if one is going to believe in the God of Abraham, he must believe in Him in spirit, and in truth. That means holding God's everlasting gospel promise in one's heart as the only standard by which he can know if what he is reading agrees with, or contradicts, God's everlasting gospel promise. When God's gospel promise, in one's heart, tells a faithful believer that a particular passage is either true, or false, that is the Holy Spirit speaking to him. One must have the spirit of truth in his heart before the spirit of truth can guide him.
                        Faith in the God of Abraham is, and has always been, faith in His everlasting gospel promise to Abraham. Even though the name was not coined until the late first century at Antioch, Christianity has always been the watching and waiting of God's faithful, for the anointed one who will lead the great everlasting nation of God's promise, to the fulfillment of God's gospel promise; the blessing of all the nations with everlasting peace on earth.
                        What do you think Dave? Is it worth discussing?.
                        God's everlasting gospel promise to Abraham, is the ultimate context for all verses, and the ultimate answer to every bible question.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by davidbrainerd View Post

                          Explain Proverbs 28:5 "Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the Lord understand all things." and Romans 3:11 "There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God." together. I'll wait.
                          Law and covenants are all about how to distinguish the righteous from the wicked. Under God's Law, no one is righteous. This refers to the degree of how humans understand God and His Law and seek to abide by the Law. Everyone fails in the respect. A covenant on the other hand, is granted through the blood of Jesus Christ. It is used to distinguish the righteous from the wicked while the Law failed to. The righteous under a covenant are those who have such a degree of understanding and seeking God. In a nutshell, it means that under God's absolute Law no one can be righteous to understand and seek God thus to abide by His Law. However, one can be righteous to understand and seek God thus to abide by His covenant. The gap is paid by Jesus.

                          Paul is the only one who can make one have the above understanding. Without Paul no one can understand correctly what is said in the two location of Psalm.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by davidbrainerd View Post

                            Explain Proverbs 28:5 "Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the Lord understand all things." and Romans 3:11 "There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God." together. I'll wait.
                            Hi Dave:
                            The question we all have to ask is; do we understand all things? The fact that there are thousands of doctrinally disagreeing denominations, makes it very clear that they certainly do not understand all things, and therefore that they do not seek God. So my question is; with it so clear that we don't understand all things, why is no one willing to engage in a discussion of something which everyone with a bible can agree upon; The everlasting, gospel which God preached to Abraham, Jesus preached to backslidden Jews, and Paul preached to gentiles?
                            God's everlasting gospel promise to Abraham, is the ultimate context for all verses, and the ultimate answer to every bible question.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by davidbrainerd View Post

                              Not really, because despite Paul clearly being wrong and deceptive in Romans 3, the Bible can smooth it out, if you bother to read the whole thing. For instance, if you harmonize:
                              Hi Dave:
                              It would probably be good for you to explain how the bible can smooth out something which is clearly wrong and deceptive. IOW, explain how to harmonize error out of doctrine.
                              The only way I can see, that the bible can smooth out bible error, is by letting God's own words in the bible, expose the scripture which contradicts God's own words. God's own words will smooth things out by causing those who have faith in God, to reject any scripture which contradicts God.
                              Don't you agree?

                              God's everlasting gospel promise to Abraham, is the ultimate context for all verses, and the ultimate answer to every bible question.

                              Comment

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