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Some of Augustine's bizarreness - from his Genesis commentary

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  • Originally posted by e v e View Post
    That concept of the soul and spirit in augustine is very platonic, and linked for him in a negative sense, to Eve, and to the feminine. And note, so many many of Augustine's off views have been incorporated to 'christianity' today, in ALL its many factions.

    Many repetitions of his negative view below, can be found in his On Genesis commentaries.
    Augustine has so very mixed up idea of the soul, not even understanding nephesh because so glued onto him is that carnal Self, in ever word he ever wrote!

    Two passages from his commentaries are quite sad. [Well many are, sad because so very unscriptural view.]

    1 - “Except for the purpose of procreation, another man would have been a more suitable companion/or Adam
    Or if it was not for help in producing children that a wife was made for the man, then what other help was she made for? If it was to till the earth together with him. there was as yet no hard toil to need such assistance; and if there had been the need, a male would have made a better help. The same can be said about companionship, should he grow tired of solitude. How much more agreeably, after all, for conviviality and conversation would two male friends live together on equal terms than man and wife? While if it was expedient that one should be in charge and the other should comply. to avoid a clash of wills disturbing the peace of the household, such an arrangement would have been ensured by one being made first, the other later, especially if the latter were created from the former. as the female was in fact created. Or would anyone say that God was only able to make a female from the man’s rib, and not also a male if he so wished? For these reasons I cannot work out what help a wife could have been made to provide the man with, if you take away the purpose of childbearing.”
    Augustine, On Genesis, Book IX, 5.9, p. 380


    2 - "For we must believe that even before her sin woman had been made to be ruled by her husband and to be submissive and subject to him. But we can with reason understand that the servitude meant in these words is that in which there is a condition similar to that of slavery rather than a bond of love (so that the servitude by which men later began to be slaves to other men obviously has its origin in punishment for sin). St. Paul says, Through love serve one another [Gal. 5.13]. But by no means would he say, "Have dominion over one another." Hence married persons through love can serve one another, but St. Paul does not permit a woman to rule over a man. The sentence pronounced by God gave this power rather to man; and it is not by her nature but rather by her sin that woman deserved to have her husband for a master. But if this order is not maintained, nature will be corrupted still more, and sin will be increased." [XI.xxxvii.50] "There is a more serious problem to be considered. If Adam was a spiritual man, in mind though not in body, how could he have believed what was said through the serpent, namely, that God forbade them to eat of the fruit of that one tree because He knew that if they did they would be gods in their knowledge of good and evil? As if the Creator would grudge so great a good to His Creatures! It is surely strange if a man endowed with a spiritual mind could have believed this. Was it because the man would not have been able to believe this that the woman was employed on the supposition that she had limited understanding, and also perhaps that she was living according to the spirit of the flesh and not according to the spirit of the mind? . . . After the woman had been seduced and had eaten of the forbidden fruit and had given Adam some to eat with her, he did not wish to make her unhappy, fearing she would waste away without his support, alienated from his affections, and that this dissension would be her death. He was not overcome by the concupiscence of the flesh, which he had not yet experienced in the law of the members at war with the law of his mind, but by the sort of attachment and affection by which it often happens that we offend God while we try to keep the friendship of men. That he should not have acted thus is clear from the just sentence which God pronounced on him." [On Genesis, Book XI.xlii.58- 59].

    a] [Augustine version], my comments.
    For Augustine, Adam is the logos-mind, therefore Eve is forced to represent the 'lower nature of physicality’, since the logos-mind cannot 'fail ' [that is Augustine’s big problem ! The logos-mind is the same carnal Self [his own psuche definitions of soul], always in Augustine represented as masculine]. So, Augustine says, Adam but just 'went along, in order to not make her unhappy’...per definition, Augustine views 'this present physicality' as the original created being! He completely forgets Eden is Below. And though he mentions 'love', that is but a smoke-curtain, because the carnal Self does not know 'love’ – and he is but 'using it’ as ABSTRACT concept.

    b] real version, scripture.

    Genesis 2:23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

    the original creation of them was not a 'higher vs. lower', but 'inside and outside’ ; where Eve was literally the inside, the core, of Adam, and Adam her 'covering.'
    They were perfect, and a perfect type physicality, without many of the features we have now - those are the result of the fall ;

    And the difference between 'inside and outside' is "the word, and the speaking of the word". Eve was 'the word', a constant sighing sexy word of love ; while Adam represented 'speech', as in 'speech to create things' , from that beautiful word.

    That is how we are made in His image!

    Before the fall

    Genesis 2:24 Wherefore a man shall leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they shall be two in one flesh.

    Note how it is said [before the fall] , that the man 'will follow his woman' ;
    Why ? because she was all the love,
    including the 'love to create sweet and true things’
    [since God made Eden out of LOVE ] ;

    Suppose you had a girl you adored,
    you'd also see to it that she got as comfortable in everything you could offer, right ?

    So Augustine's version is ice cold. And that is just on one topic. The topic of Eve and soul, and the meaning of female.

    Augustine says it would be better if the companion of a man is another man!!

    How very Platonic! No female. And none in the platonic heaven either. Because in the Platonic, Augustinian heaven, there are but androgyne 'spirits'. No Nephesh soul to be found!

    A child of Christ

    in this op is one thread where I discussed the theme of His feminine spirit.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by e v e View Post
      Genesis says literally, shows that This material world [its physics, its existence, the laws ruling it], the one we live in, which Adam fell into, IS death. And scripture tells, in Rev, that this reality will completely alter.

      Haggai 2:13, on the nphsh soul living in the [unclean] Self : [ATTACH=CONFIG]n5105987[/ATTACH]








      On the theme of dead, and death, Augustine goes to great lengths to reduce the concept of life to this world and the Self, the 'illuminated mind'! he so much favors, yet,

      Revelation 3 clearly tells another possibility : "I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead.”
      What type of 'dead' Christ is talking about ...? - of the Self-life: the Self life is "death"; because the Self is "standing in between the own soul and God"!
      Same theme was hurled to the Pharisees: they were but teaching the laws of Self, deserving the comment "you are as white graves , but full of bones inside (the Self and her type thinking)" :

      Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness. Matt. 23:27


      How come Augustine somehow missed these Vital points ... ?

      Augustine confuses the bad type willpower with God's. And so he gets everything backwards in every interpretation of scripture that he makes; he is more than not on most occasions! reading scripture through his dead bones of the Self : the flesh-mind / illuminated mind.

      The own Self cannot read scripture, having for Its guide the dark realm.


      Revelation 3 clearly tells another possibility : "I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead.” What type of 'dead' Christ is talking about ...? - of the Self-life : the Self life is "death"; because the Self is "standing in between the own soul and God"! Same theme was hurled to the Pharisees : they were but teaching the laws of Self, deserving the comment "you are as white graves , but full of bones inside (the Self and her type thinking)" :
      how come that Augustine somehow missed these Vital points ...?
      translators of scripture have had the same problem as Augustine....

      Comment


      • Originally posted by e v e View Post


        A child of Christ

        in this op is one thread where I discussed the theme of His feminine spirit.
        WAY to big of a posts,
        Break it down into chunks I can Handle.

        I am not very intelligent, a first grade Graduate,
        If you want me to read this you will present it in chunks I am able to comprehend.

        Remember I think Paul is the false prophet of Revelation.

        SO if you are talking about Paul said this or that, I think he is the false prophet of Revelation.

        Can you say what you wanted to say by the WORDS OF THE CHRIST?

        You are going to have to break it into smaller parts that can be addressed.

        Like I said, I think Paul is the false prophet, so references to him are treated as if he is the false prophet.

        Explain what you wanted to say, SLOWLY, using the words of the Christ.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by e v e View Post

          I am my soul. Not the natural mind.
          The soul is your mind, it is who you are or are not
          The human side is to claim the promises of God. The divine side is to receive them.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by GaryMac View Post

            The soul is your mind, it is who you are or are not
            That’s your belief , Gary?

            Comment


            • Originally posted by e v e View Post

              That’s your belief , Gary?
              Beliefs are regulated by law. Who we are is not a belief at all. I am that I am.
              The human side is to claim the promises of God. The divine side is to receive them.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by GaryMac View Post

                Beliefs are regulated by law. Who we are is not a belief at all. I am that I am.
                Well the comment about mind being

                the soul is true for you. Dont push your belief on me.


                Comment


                • Originally posted by Ansel07 View Post

                  I am not influenced by Augustine or any other person.He cannot butcher the inspired scriptures. Medieval theology is also meaningless.It cannot stand against God's Truth which is his word.

                  I have read Genesis and the rest of God's word. What he has revealed to us. Christians are indwelled by the Holy Spirit who teaches and guides. The H.S. will not leave them in error. Are you guided by and yielded to the H.S.? Or to your own understanding?

                  I stand firm on what I said about Genesis, Adam, Eve, etc because it needs no other interpretation other than exactly what the scripture says. Its actually New Agers who are hung up on Eve being their mother. Eden. Nature. Worshiping trees.

                  You attribute way too much to Adam and Eden Instead of on Jesus Christ and heaven. As I've already said, those who are children of God via faith in the Son, have a heavenly kingdom. I could give all the scriptures for this, but no one's interested.

                  Don't read the scriptures through philosophical, worldly glasses. Gnosis (which some posters on here claim to have) where one believes they have knowledge that most missed, is simply not true. God wants us to know him and his will.

                  We have the nature of God, as we are made in his image and likeness, not Eden nature. Born again Believers will receive glorious bodies like the one Jesus has which can go through doors. It is not Eden nature but far better. Whenever plan A fails, God has plan B and it is always better. Adam was plan A. Jesus is plan B. The new earth will be nothing like Eden. It will be far more beautiful.
                  I am not the one attributing way too much to Adam and Eve.


                  The only only reason We have scripture at all is because Eden fell and God will restore His creation. God must think a lot of Eden and of His creation to go to the all trouble and suffering to come and die here.,

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by e v e View Post

                    I am not the one attributing way too much to Adam and Eve.


                    The only only reason We have scripture at all is because Eden fell and God will restore His creation. God must think a lot of Eden and of His creation to go to the all trouble and suffering to come and die here.,
                    He does restore His creation which is in us all who has received Him. He opens all of heaven to us. Millions has gone to a grave never receiving that promise, never knowing His heaven. You will to the way it sounds, You will wait and wait and wait and wait for His kingdom to be restored just as millions before you did the same and never knowing what that actually is because you are looking for it instead of receiving it.
                    The human side is to claim the promises of God. The divine side is to receive them.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by GaryMac View Post

                      He does restore His creation which is in us all who has received Him. He opens all of heaven to us. Millions has gone to a grave never receiving that promise, never knowing His heaven. You will to the way it sounds, You will wait and wait and wait and wait for His kingdom to be restored just as millions before you did the same and never knowing what that actually is because you are looking for it instead of receiving it.
                      It is a spiritual resurrection that restores us back to what we were once before and it is not the first Adam but the second Adam in Christ. That is where we were before and why it is called a renewal, regeneration and restoration. Eden is in the beginning of the first Adam but it is not the first Adam being restored.

                      Also, being begotten of God is a process at work that begins with the death of the old man in Christ death and the beginning of a new spiritual man delivered out of death and rising with Christ who rose out of the grave.

                      Christ is being formed in us shows that it is a progressive work and so is coming into the kingdom of God when the carnal mind is completely overcome and thus death is destroyed.

                      It is not flesh and blood that enters the kingdom of God but one that is completely spiritually transformed and the body of Christ is a spiritual body.

                      God bless you,

                      SeventhDay

                      Comment


                      • =SeventhDay;n5829743]

                        It is a spiritual resurrection that restores us back to what we were once before and it is not the first Adam but the second Adam in Christ. That is where we were before and why it is called a renewal, regeneration and restoration. Eden is in the beginning of the first Adam but it is not the first Adam being restored.
                        Gen 3:22. This happened in us all who is restored and all of heaven is opened to us where we become like God to know this difference. See Matt 3:16, this is how Jesus was restored to it, and this I show Adam was restored to it, Moses, 120, and we all who has been restored by Gods SPirit be in us as our own.

                        Also, being begotten of God is a process at work that begins with the death of the old man in Christ death and the beginning of a new spiritual man delivered out of death and rising with Christ who rose out of the grave.
                        Death to the old man in Christ? In Christ comes the new man. But I think I catch your drift. Rising out from that grave is to be born again.
                        Christ is being formed in us shows that it is a progressive work and so is coming into the kingdom of God when the carnal mind is completely overcome and thus death is destroyed.
                        When one receives form God that what Jesus received from Him and all of heaven I opened to you, it happens in the twinkling of an eyes, everything changes, a new heaven and earth. It is not a progression. progression is of law, it is a gift from God we receive.

                        It is not flesh and blood that enters the kingdom of God but one that is completely spiritually transformed and the body of Christ is a spiritual body.
                        We in Christ live it this day. it isn't something for future or something of past as in historical events ..It is who are you today? .

                        God bless you,
                        He has -- More than you know
                        The human side is to claim the promises of God. The divine side is to receive them.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by e v e View Post

                          Well the comment about mind being

                          the soul is true for you. Dont push your belief on me.

                          The soul is truth for me it is who I Am. So don't push your beliefs on me.
                          The human side is to claim the promises of God. The divine side is to receive them.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by GaryMac View Post

                            The soul is truth for me it is who I Am. So don't push your beliefs on me.
                            Lol

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by GaryMac View Post

                              Gen 3:22. This happened in us all who is restored and all of heaven is opened to us where we become like God to know this difference. See Matt 3:16, this is how Jesus was restored to it, and this I show Adam was restored to it, Moses, 120, and we all who has been restored by Gods SPirit be in us as our own.



                              Death to the old man in Christ? In Christ comes the new man. But I think I catch your drift. Rising out from that grave is to be born again.


                              When one receives form God that what Jesus received from Him and all of heaven I opened to you, it happens in the twinkling of an eyes, everything changes, a new heaven and earth. It is not a progression. progression is of law, it is a gift from God we receive.



                              We in Christ live it this day. it isn't something for future or something of past as in historical events ..It is who are you today? .



                              He has -- More than you know
                              God is in the Now and so is his own who are with him but you can be sure that spiritual regeneration is a progressive work and part of that includes sanctification by the Word of God.

                              It is not a one time blowing of the wind but many times until the work is done which is why we have the indwelling Holy Spirit.

                              Yes, we are eating out of the tree of life and that is what is restoring us because the tree of life is in us. God has provided us bread so let us eat it!

                              God bless you,

                              SeventhDay

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by SeventhDay View Post

                                God is in the Now and so is his own who are with him but you can be sure that spiritual regeneration is a progressive work and part of that includes sanctification by the Word of God.

                                It is not a one time blowing of the wind but many times until the work is done which is why we have the indwelling Holy Spirit.

                                Yes, we are eating out of the tree of life and that is what is restoring us because the tree of life is in us. God has provided us bread so let us eat it!

                                God bless you,

                                SeventhDay
                                Nope ... not a progression at all. It is a gift we receive and either you have received it as Jesus did or you have not.
                                The human side is to claim the promises of God. The divine side is to receive them.

                                Comment

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