Announcement

Collapse

Message to all users:

https://carm.org/forum-rules

Super Member Subscription
https://carm.org/carm-super-members-banner-ad-signup

As most of you are aware, we had a crash to forums and were down for over two days a while back. We did have to do an upgrade to the vbulletin software to fix the forums and that has created changes, VB no longer provide the hybrid or threaded forums. There are some issues/changes to the forums we are not able to fix or change. Also note the link address change, please let friends and posters know of the changed link to the forums. For now this is the only link available, https://forums.carm.org/vb5/ but if clicking on forum on carm.org homepage it will now send you to this link. (edited to add https: now working.

Again, we are working through some of the posting and viewing issues to learn how to post with the changes, you will have to check and test the different features, icons that have changed. You may also want to go to profile settings,since many of the notifications, information in profile, also to update/edit your avatar by clicking on avatar space, pull down arrow next to login for user settings.

Edit to add "How to read forums, to make it easier."
Pull down arrow next to login name upper right select profile, or user settings when page opens to profile,select link in tab that says Account. Then select/choose options, go down to Conversation Detail Options, Select Display mode Posts, NOT Activity, that selection of Posts will make the pages of discussions go to last post on last page rather than out of order that happens if you choose activity threads. Then be sure to go to bottom and select SAVE Changes in your profile options. You can then follow discussions by going through the pages, to the last page having latest responses. Then click on the other links Privacy, Notifications, to select viewing options,the forums get easier if you open all the tabs or links in your profile, user settings and select options. To join Super Member, pull down arrow next to login name, select User Settings and then click on tab/link at top that says Subscriptions.

Thank you for your patience and God Bless.

Diane S
https://carm.org/forum-rules
See more
See less

Some of Augustine's bizarreness - from his Genesis commentary

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #61
    Originally posted by e v e View Post
    I haven't slept in 26 hours. I'll be back and answer tomorrow.
    WOW girl you need to get some sleep that isn't good at all for the health of your physically and mentality. .
    The human side is to claim the promises of God. The divine side is to receive them.

    Comment


    • #62
      Everything about Augustine's view in the quotes I gave in the op,
      has to do with will, and the way that Augustine views will...

      Augustine sets out to arrive at the conclusion that "the light of the mind is ruling".
      What was that drive , that intention to get there ? --- the force named "the Will";
      and though he is Vague about the 'Will' , all of his reasoning is colored by a certain [version of] 'willpower'
      (compare additionally, his horrible pagan book,
      Of Free Choice of the Will, to which this comment refers).

      Augustine is vague, because, then he would have to admit the true source of Evil.

      Factually, there are two 'wills' , of the one who said "I will be like God" ,
      and God's Will , which seeks to bring back Eden, in order to have paradise back, forever.
      Perhaps "the will" can be described as "the power of a deity (or human)" ,
      as opposed to the nature of a deity (or human) , which is his or her signature.

      The difference between both, for example, that since Eden fell, "(eden's) love" became separated from "(eden's) willpower",
      just as Eve became separated from Adam; and Eden will only return, when that love is coupled again with it's willpower.
      But until now, another type 'willpower' wants (sic) to prevent that.

      Don't underestimate the aspect of "Will" , because it includes "the power to create" :
      For us this is a very strange thing to realize , that what we call "the laws of nature",
      as gravity, or the cycle of rain and vapor forming clouds again, are factually "cycles and laws,
      created by a Will" --- a will from outside us;
      and this 'will' is factually "holding together and maintaining our present reality we live in".
      Please remember , how Revelation describes how this reality will completely alter.

      Comment


      • #63
        Genesis says literally, shows that This material world [its physics, its existence, the laws ruling it], the one we live in, which Adam fell into, IS death. And scripture tells, in Rev, that this reality will completely alter.

        Haggai 2:13, on the nphsh soul living in the [unclean] Self : Click image for larger version

Name:	Screenshot_-_20-02-18_-_11_05_58.png
Views:	1
Size:	9.2 KB
ID:	5105987








        On the theme of dead, and death, Augustine goes to great lengths to reduce the concept of life to this world and the Self, the 'illuminated mind'! he so much favors, yet,

        Revelation 3 clearly tells another possibility : "I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead.”
        What type of 'dead' Christ is talking about ...? - of the Self-life: the Self life is "death"; because the Self is "standing in between the own soul and God"!
        Same theme was hurled to the Pharisees: they were but teaching the laws of Self, deserving the comment "you are as white graves , but full of bones inside (the Self and her type thinking)" :

        Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness. Matt. 23:27


        How come Augustine somehow missed these Vital points ... ?

        Augustine confuses the bad type willpower with God's. And so he gets everything backwards in every interpretation of scripture that he makes; he is more than not on most occasions! reading scripture through his dead bones of the Self : the flesh-mind / illuminated mind.

        The own Self cannot read scripture, having for Its guide the dark realm.


        Revelation 3 clearly tells another possibility : "I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead.” What type of 'dead' Christ is talking about ...? - of the Self-life : the Self life is "death"; because the Self is "standing in between the own soul and God"! Same theme was hurled to the Pharisees : they were but teaching the laws of Self, deserving the comment "you are as white graves , but full of bones inside (the Self and her type thinking)" :
        how come that Augustine somehow missed these Vital points ...?
        Last edited by e v e; 02-21-18, 07:18 PM.

        Comment


        • #64
          More Augustine problems, his attribution to Eve as soul and Adam as mind [spirit] and his lowly opinion of the nephesh soul.

          6) So that then is how we ought to understand this passage. We are certainly not to suppose that because it said, He blew into him the spirit of life and the man was made into a living soul, something like a part of God's nature was turned into the man's soul, and so be obliged to say that God's nature is subject to change- the error about which the truth presses hardest on these Manichees. Pride, you see, being the mother of all heretics, these have had the nerve to say that the soul is identical with God's nature.

          [...] That the soul, you see, was made by the all-powerful God, and that accordingly it is not a part of God or identical with his nature, is stated quite plainly in another passage of scripture, where the prophet says: And the one who fashioned the spirit for them all, he it is that knows all things (Ps 33: 15), and in another place: who fashioned the spirit of man within him (Zech 12: 1 ). So then, that the spirit of the man was made is definitively proved by these texts. But the scriptures give the name of "the spirit of man" to the soul's power of reason, which distinguishes him from the animals and gives him mastery over them by natural law. [p.79] [quotes from On Genesis]



          breakdown :
          1) Augustine does not believe that the soul is related to God; supporting this thought with "that the changes of the soul are incompatible with God's steadfastness", likely related to the 'mood-swings' of the soul [this is very Platonic!] But is what he believes true? But is it ? - there is a clear distinction in scripture between "nephesh Adamite souls" and material type 'being alive, an animal type soul, as Augustine views it!

          just above, in the pic I posted from Haggai , "the nephesh-soul can be defiled" , why use 'defiled' when [if so it would mean] she would be completely un-related to God.


          2) Augustine says that "the spirit (-breath)" is different from the nephesh-soul, that is indeed true: but when he says that "this spirit is the power of reason", that is not true. The real context of the "forming spirit within the ADM human" follows upon 'founding earth' (and not this earth either !) , meaning it was not the "spirit of reasoning power": because that spirit was the serpent's, to Eve! Apparently, the (helpless) nephesh soul can be 'covered' by a number of "layers", of which this "inward spirit" was one; and that spirit again covered by God's --- but it is not right to interchange it [that spirit described in scripture] with the Self [the serpent]; which is what Augustine does.

          Comment


          • #65
            SeventhDay
            you had given and explanation of Adam and eve as spirit in soul. The last two posts are replies to that, since that idea is expressed by Augustine in his On Genesis text. It's not scriptural, as all my posts on this thread are trying to show.

            Thank you for considering these things... I slept but I'm still very tired and need to review the posts you and others made, and reply to any points I've missed specifically.

            I lack sleep because of the schedule, and having to take a train that leaves at 5 am. Since I am a night owl, then that causes problems. For example, It's now 730 pm. I will have to wake up at 4 am, soon. Yet, I couldn't possibly go to sleep yet, meaning that I will be awake again, 24 hours, tomorrow. So that's why from Monday - Friday I am very very tired.

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by Ansel07 View Post

              Sorry to hear this. I will be praying for you that God will sustain you and meet your financial and emotional needs during this trying time.
              I've replied the last three responses on this thread, to various things, but without specifically replying to you or any other poster... for now... I'm not trying to ignore... I've simply spent a bit of time on those posts and now i have to go write the lecture for tomorrow's class. So I'm very pressed for time, and for sleep.

              I'll come back Friday or late tomorrow and see if anyone read what i posted...and any comments. Thank you.

              Comment


              • #67
                Oh, I did want to say a bit more of something, and I'm sorry, I broke those posts into three posts, and not just a long post...I prefer keeping points separate and smaller...Thank you...


                7) A] As for the tree of knowledge of good and evil, again it is the halfway centrality of the soul, its integrity in the due order of things, that it signifies. This th tree too, after all, was planted in the middle of Paradise; and the reason it is called the tree of distinguishing between good and evil is that if the soul turns to itself with Its back to God and wants to enjoy Its own power wtthout any reference to God , It swells up with pride, which is the starting point of all sin (Sir I 0: 13). [On Genesis, p. 79.]

                - yes this one was coming: it is the main hinge, for us, of Augustine's mindset; and immediately shows how he sees the soul (but read: the Self) as "centered in the midst between good and evil".

                - note how the colored term "distinguishing between" is used, namely the 'distinguishing' meant as "a positive thing", this term chosen because he thinks that the place of the soul is 'being in the midst'. The term 'distinguishing' isn't used in scripture, but only "the tree of knowledge of good and evil" (hebrew : doth);

                - though he rightly describes the "walking Off with its back toward God".


                B] And when the penalty follows upon this sin of the soul's, it learns by experience what the difference is between the good which it has turned its back on and the evil into which it has fallen. And this will be its tasting of the fruit of the tree of distinguishing between good and evil. [p. 79]

                yet here , it is suggested "that only after a penalty, that soul will realize the Good again" : but that was exact the whole point I've been trying to tell so far : that the (eden-) Good has already become unreachable ! and the only 'good' a soul will see, is the deep-frozen substitute things of the fallen world !

                you see how disastrous is Augustine's thoughtline..?

                Like a billionaire who suffered a sudden total amnesia, now being happy that he sleeps in the cheap motel - since sleeping on the streets, in the cold, must be 'hell' ('evil') ...
                Last edited by e v e; 02-21-18, 07:54 PM.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by e v e View Post
                  SeventhDay
                  you had given and explanation of Adam and eve as spirit in soul. The last two posts are replies to that, since that idea is expressed by Augustine in his On Genesis text. It's not scriptural, as all my posts on this thread are trying to show.

                  Thank you for considering these things... I slept but I'm still very tired and need to review the posts you and others made, and reply to any points I've missed specifically.

                  I lack sleep because of the schedule, and having to take a train that leaves at 5 am. Since I am a night owl, then that causes problems. For example, It's now 730 pm. I will have to wake up at 4 am, soon. Yet, I couldn't possibly go to sleep yet, meaning that I will be awake again, 24 hours, tomorrow. So that's why from Monday - Friday I am very very tired.
                  We need to go through it together a little at a time and perhaps begin a fresh.

                  May the Lord help you get the sleep you need.

                  I love you in the Lord, Eve.

                  Ron

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Much of Christianity today believes that He created this cheap hotel.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by e v e View Post
                      Much of Christianity today believes that He created this cheap hotel.
                      Well, what ever we understand it is because God has given it to us and we sure need it to glorify him.

                      Ron

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        What has Augustine have to do with God coming to me by His Spirit and changing my life from one state of religious belief systems, denominations, such as Augustine, that most follow instead of having the same mentality as that of Christ ... Which is God in you, You anointed of God ..Augustine was just another denomination with his own laws to govern god just as Catholic do, Baptists do, Methodists dp. LDS, COCs, AOG, you name it.

                        The only difference from any of these is and Augustine is they all have laws to govern their gods.

                        Eve -- There is no interpretation whether Hebrew, Greek, or Latin that can reveal God to you. That comes only by His Spirit. the same one Adam became like, Moses became like, Jesus became like, 120 became like, I became like and everyone becomes like who are the temple of God and not the temple for Augustine or any other of those described.

                        One just as to decipherer which one of these to follow. For me Christ is my head not Augustine. . .
                        The human side is to claim the promises of God. The divine side is to receive them.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by GaryMac View Post
                          What has Augustine have to do with God coming to me by His Spirit and changing my life from one state of religious belief systems, denominations, such as Augustine, that most follow instead of having the same mentality as that of Christ ... Which is God in you, You anointed of God ..Augustine was just another denomination with his own laws to govern god just as Catholic do, Baptists do, Methodists dp. LDS, COCs, AOG, you name it.

                          The only difference from any of these is and Augustine is they all have laws to govern their gods.

                          Eve -- There is no interpretation whether Hebrew, Greek, or Latin that can reveal God to you. That comes only by His Spirit. the same one Adam became like, Moses became like, Jesus became like, 120 became like, I became like and everyone becomes like who are the temple of God and not the temple for Augustine or any other of those described.

                          One just as to decipherer which one of these to follow. For me Christ is my head not Augustine. . .
                          because Augustine shaped many of those systems...and I do care about souls, and if those souls continue in a mentality as that, then that hurts me. It has everything to do with me, because i care about the Other, to tell what I understand, and maybe someone reading, will see the things Augustine lied about, and leave said 'systems.' Why not a soul learn why Augustine is a denomination of Lucifer?

                          Just as why not a soul learn many things of His? What is so wrong with understanding 'what's wrong.' ? Nothing....Nothing wrong with a soul understanding the posts I made.
                          Last edited by e v e; 02-21-18, 09:30 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            GaryMac

                            if you were teaching your child to paint and she made a mistake, and you love your child and want her to improve, would you not show them what the problem was so to get on with painting?

                            Of course.

                            A soul having met and loving God does not mean that souls cannot love and help each other, and learn things, and be together with their family, which is other souls of His too.

                            Christianity is not solipsism, some sort of narcissistic egocentric 'One.'

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Also, I am not seeing these things in relation to an either or of material reality versus spirit. Because in fact, His Spirit and Lucifer are not the same realm and spirit.
                              And the duality of spirit+this world = Lucifer, prince of the air's realm. His Spirit + Eden = His realm.

                              And each realm indeed has spirit and has an understanding of 'achieving spirit.'

                              The delusion of canons is of the first one, Lucifer. Yet, within Lucifer's realm [this world] can be found many denominations and views, including a spiritualized sort of anti-canonical view. Vishnu comes to mind, the many branches of the world-tree [good and evil].

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                5) The first question, you see, that is usually raised by God's fashioning the man from the mud of the earth (Gn 2:7) is what sort of mud it was, or what material was being signified by the word "mud." These enemies, though, of the books of the Old Testament, looking at everything in a fleshly, literal-minded way, and therefore always getting everything wrong, are in the habit of commenting sarcastically even on this point, that God fashioned the man from mud. What they say, you see, is: [..] "Did he not have anything better, celestial material ?" What they fail to understand from the start is how many meanings both earth or water are given in the scriptures- mud, you see, being a mixture of water and earth.

                                [...] we understand that in this place the man was made of body and soul, it was by no means absurd to give that mixture the name of mud.Just as water, you see, collects earth and sticks and holds it together when mud is made by mixing it in, so too the soul by animating the mateTi al uf the body shapes it into a harmonious unity, and does not permit it to fall apart into its constituent elements
                                [On Genesis, cont.]


                                [Compare Haggai 2, nphsh pic a few posts above]


                                Augustine wreaks again the dogma "that this present body we have now, is basically Eden's" ; and many - if not most - christians think the same (because they didn't have the right information...). Except compare, that "flesh cannot enter the kingdom" , that Christ died to get us OUT of this flesh body; therefore per definition this body is made from another type "mud" as Adam's was in Eden .
                                [
                                - again the choice of words is important : "mud" (and mire) are used in scripture only for Their [Lucifer's] mixed realm, (as "Tyre's streets of mire and gold") , therefore the term 'mud' is only Negative, namely as "mixture"; in scripture "dust" is adama, and this 'dust' can be interpreted more like "light-dust", or "star-dust" if you like,

                                - In other places of On Genesis, Augustine criticizes what now he says is good [describing eve etc., above quotes], but here we can see in the quote how Augustine now swings the other way, where the Platonic idea about this body is always very low [that point plato did get right], here the unity of soul and (this) body is required - yet again scripture refutes that, as in Haggai 2 quote, given above, where is described how "the eden type body gets defiled when combined ('touching') other flesh", literally it writes "the nephesh-soul gets defiled when being in contact with this body we have now"!

                                - but it was never translated like that !


                                How can that be...?

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X