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Some of Augustine's bizarreness - from his Genesis commentary

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  • Some of Augustine's bizarreness - from his Genesis commentary

    That concept of the soul and spirit in augustine is very platonic, and linked for him in a negative sense, to Eve, and to the feminine. And note, so many many of Augustine's off views have been incorporated to 'christianity' today, in ALL its many factions.

    Many repetitions of his negative view below, can be found in his On Genesis commentaries.
    Augustine has so very mixed up idea of the soul, not even understanding nephesh because so glued onto him is that carnal Self, in ever word he ever wrote!

    Two passages from his commentaries are quite sad. [Well many are, sad because so very unscriptural view.]

    1 - “Except for the purpose of procreation, another man would have been a more suitable companion/or Adam
    Or if it was not for help in producing children that a wife was made for the man, then what other help was she made for? If it was to till the earth together with him. there was as yet no hard toil to need such assistance; and if there had been the need, a male would have made a better help. The same can be said about companionship, should he grow tired of solitude. How much more agreeably, after all, for conviviality and conversation would two male friends live together on equal terms than man and wife? While if it was expedient that one should be in charge and the other should comply. to avoid a clash of wills disturbing the peace of the household, such an arrangement would have been ensured by one being made first, the other later, especially if the latter were created from the former. as the female was in fact created. Or would anyone say that God was only able to make a female from the man’s rib, and not also a male if he so wished? For these reasons I cannot work out what help a wife could have been made to provide the man with, if you take away the purpose of childbearing.”
    Augustine, On Genesis, Book IX, 5.9, p. 380


    2 - "For we must believe that even before her sin woman had been made to be ruled by her husband and to be submissive and subject to him. But we can with reason understand that the servitude meant in these words is that in which there is a condition similar to that of slavery rather than a bond of love (so that the servitude by which men later began to be slaves to other men obviously has its origin in punishment for sin). St. Paul says, Through love serve one another [Gal. 5.13]. But by no means would he say, "Have dominion over one another." Hence married persons through love can serve one another, but St. Paul does not permit a woman to rule over a man. The sentence pronounced by God gave this power rather to man; and it is not by her nature but rather by her sin that woman deserved to have her husband for a master. But if this order is not maintained, nature will be corrupted still more, and sin will be increased." [XI.xxxvii.50] "There is a more serious problem to be considered. If Adam was a spiritual man, in mind though not in body, how could he have believed what was said through the serpent, namely, that God forbade them to eat of the fruit of that one tree because He knew that if they did they would be gods in their knowledge of good and evil? As if the Creator would grudge so great a good to His Creatures! It is surely strange if a man endowed with a spiritual mind could have believed this. Was it because the man would not have been able to believe this that the woman was employed on the supposition that she had limited understanding, and also perhaps that she was living according to the spirit of the flesh and not according to the spirit of the mind? . . . After the woman had been seduced and had eaten of the forbidden fruit and had given Adam some to eat with her, he did not wish to make her unhappy, fearing she would waste away without his support, alienated from his affections, and that this dissension would be her death. He was not overcome by the concupiscence of the flesh, which he had not yet experienced in the law of the members at war with the law of his mind, but by the sort of attachment and affection by which it often happens that we offend God while we try to keep the friendship of men. That he should not have acted thus is clear from the just sentence which God pronounced on him." [On Genesis, Book XI.xlii.58- 59].

    a] [Augustine version], my comments.
    For Augustine, Adam is the logos-mind, therefore Eve is forced to represent the 'lower nature of physicality’, since the logos-mind cannot 'fail ' [that is Augustine’s big problem ! The logos-mind is the same carnal Self [his own psuche definitions of soul], always in Augustine represented as masculine]. So, Augustine says, Adam but just 'went along, in order to not make her unhappy’...per definition, Augustine views 'this present physicality' as the original created being! He completely forgets Eden is Below. And though he mentions 'love', that is but a smoke-curtain, because the carnal Self does not know 'love’ – and he is but 'using it’ as ABSTRACT concept.

    b] real version, scripture.

    Genesis 2:23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

    the original creation of them was not a 'higher vs. lower', but 'inside and outside’ ; where Eve was literally the inside, the core, of Adam, and Adam her 'covering.'
    They were perfect, and a perfect type physicality, without many of the features we have now - those are the result of the fall ;

    And the difference between 'inside and outside' is "the word, and the speaking of the word". Eve was 'the word', a constant sighing sexy word of love ; while Adam represented 'speech', as in 'speech to create things' , from that beautiful word.

    That is how we are made in His image!

    Before the fall

    Genesis 2:24 Wherefore a man shall leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they shall be two in one flesh.

    Note how it is said [before the fall] , that the man 'will follow his woman' ;
    Why ? because she was all the love,
    including the 'love to create sweet and true things’
    [since God made Eden out of LOVE ] ;

    Suppose you had a girl you adored,
    you'd also see to it that she got as comfortable in everything you could offer, right ?

    So Augustine's version is ice cold. And that is just on one topic. The topic of Eve and soul, and the meaning of female.

    Augustine says it would be better if the companion of a man is another man!!

    How very Platonic! No female. And none in the platonic heaven either. Because in the Platonic, Augustinian heaven, there are but androgyne 'spirits'. No Nephesh soul to be found!

  • #2
    Ansel07 this may interest you, since we have been on the topic of Adam and Eve, on the other thread. I had a thread on this topic, which got railroaded...so I am taking things in smaller pieces, in their own threads. This thread is about Adam and Eve, and their natures...but also about how medieval theology twisted scripture, the example here being Augustine, ecf....a very subtle twisting, and completely utterly foreign to scripture.

    Comment


    • #3
      I posted this to apologetics since my views of Genesis are seen as heretical. This topic is about Adam and Eve, not about Augustine per se. I mentioned Augustine to show how very much he has polluted our view of Adam and Eve.

      And placed the entire context of adam and eve into this physical material plane, which is not where Eden was, and acting as if Adam and Eve were like us, or had these type bodies. Augustine has butchered scripture and has no sense of Eden nature whatsoever.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by e v e View Post
        That concept of the soul and spirit in augustine is very platonic, and linked for him in a negative sense, to Eve, and to the feminine. And note, so many many of Augustine's off views have been incorporated to 'christianity' today, in ALL its many factions.

        Many repetitions of his negative view below, can be found in his On Genesis commentaries.
        Augustine has so very mixed up idea of the soul, not even understanding nephesh because so glued onto him is that carnal Self, in ever word he ever wrote!

        Two passages from his commentaries are quite sad. [Well many are, sad because so very unscriptural view.]

        1 - “Except for the purpose of procreation, another man would have been a more suitable companion/or Adam
        Or if it was not for help in producing children that a wife was made for the man, then what other help was she made for? If it was to till the earth together with him. there was as yet no hard toil to need such assistance; and if there had been the need, a male would have made a better help. The same can be said about companionship, should he grow tired of solitude. How much more agreeably, after all, for conviviality and conversation would two male friends live together on equal terms than man and wife? While if it was expedient that one should be in charge and the other should comply. to avoid a clash of wills disturbing the peace of the household, such an arrangement would have been ensured by one being made first, the other later, especially if the latter were created from the former. as the female was in fact created. Or would anyone say that God was only able to make a female from the man’s rib, and not also a male if he so wished? For these reasons I cannot work out what help a wife could have been made to provide the man with, if you take away the purpose of childbearing.”
        Augustine, On Genesis, Book IX, 5.9, p. 380


        2 - "For we must believe that even before her sin woman had been made to be ruled by her husband and to be submissive and subject to him. But we can with reason understand that the servitude meant in these words is that in which there is a condition similar to that of slavery rather than a bond of love (so that the servitude by which men later began to be slaves to other men obviously has its origin in punishment for sin). St. Paul says, Through love serve one another [Gal. 5.13]. But by no means would he say, "Have dominion over one another." Hence married persons through love can serve one another, but St. Paul does not permit a woman to rule over a man. The sentence pronounced by God gave this power rather to man; and it is not by her nature but rather by her sin that woman deserved to have her husband for a master. But if this order is not maintained, nature will be corrupted still more, and sin will be increased." [XI.xxxvii.50] "There is a more serious problem to be considered. If Adam was a spiritual man, in mind though not in body, how could he have believed what was said through the serpent, namely, that God forbade them to eat of the fruit of that one tree because He knew that if they did they would be gods in their knowledge of good and evil? As if the Creator would grudge so great a good to His Creatures! It is surely strange if a man endowed with a spiritual mind could have believed this. Was it because the man would not have been able to believe this that the woman was employed on the supposition that she had limited understanding, and also perhaps that she was living according to the spirit of the flesh and not according to the spirit of the mind? . . . After the woman had been seduced and had eaten of the forbidden fruit and had given Adam some to eat with her, he did not wish to make her unhappy, fearing she would waste away without his support, alienated from his affections, and that this dissension would be her death. He was not overcome by the concupiscence of the flesh, which he had not yet experienced in the law of the members at war with the law of his mind, but by the sort of attachment and affection by which it often happens that we offend God while we try to keep the friendship of men. That he should not have acted thus is clear from the just sentence which God pronounced on him." [On Genesis, Book XI.xlii.58- 59].

        a] [Augustine version], my comments.
        For Augustine, Adam is the logos-mind, therefore Eve is forced to represent the 'lower nature of physicality’, since the logos-mind cannot 'fail ' [that is Augustine’s big problem ! The logos-mind is the same carnal Self [his own psuche definitions of soul], always in Augustine represented as masculine]. So, Augustine says, Adam but just 'went along, in order to not make her unhappy’...per definition, Augustine views 'this present physicality' as the original created being! He completely forgets Eden is Below. And though he mentions 'love', that is but a smoke-curtain, because the carnal Self does not know 'love’ – and he is but 'using it’ as ABSTRACT concept.

        b] real version, scripture.

        Genesis 2:23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

        the original creation of them was not a 'higher vs. lower', but 'inside and outside’ ; where Eve was literally the inside, the core, of Adam, and Adam her 'covering.'
        They were perfect, and a perfect type physicality, without many of the features we have now - those are the result of the fall ;

        And the difference between 'inside and outside' is "the word, and the speaking of the word". Eve was 'the word', a constant sighing sexy word of love ; while Adam represented 'speech', as in 'speech to create things' , from that beautiful word.

        That is how we are made in His image!

        Before the fall

        Genesis 2:24 Wherefore a man shall leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they shall be two in one flesh.

        Note how it is said [before the fall] , that the man 'will follow his woman' ;
        Why ? because she was all the love,
        including the 'love to create sweet and true things’
        [since God made Eden out of LOVE ] ;

        Suppose you had a girl you adored,
        you'd also see to it that she got as comfortable in everything you could offer, right ?

        So Augustine's version is ice cold. And that is just on one topic. The topic of Eve and soul, and the meaning of female.

        Augustine says it would be better if the companion of a man is another man!!

        How very Platonic! No female. And none in the platonic heaven either. Because in the Platonic, Augustinian heaven, there are but androgyne 'spirits'. No Nephesh soul to be found!
        Yeah I know what ya mean. Jesus was so mixed up to those who accused him, it is no different today. We who has from God that what Jesus had from Him, we are just as mixed up as Jesus was for we have the same mind as he had from the Father.

        Whoever Augustine was is not my concern. My goal is God Himself not what someone else says I should be.

        Eve it never is Gods will that we be anything less than complete in Him. Eve beware of anything that will split up your oneness with Him and see yourself separately
        from Him.

        There is a simple solution to all this bickering between all here in CARM and abroad and it is -- Come unto Me, and Eve every degree that you or anyone else is not real will dispute Gods will to be like Him yourself and will dispute His will rather than come ... Come to where He is yourself.
        The human side is to claim the promises of God. The divine side is to receive them.

        Comment


        • #5
          The reason God cannot come into a life is because of not being thorough into repentance.

          God does not ask me to be like other people He is asking me to be exactly like Himself.

          Christ died once for all that He may bring us to God. 1 Peter 3:18. It worked for me. It worked for Jesus, it worked for 120. Adam ,Moses. We all came to the place in God, for we are His temple, the place God resides.

          OK now lets hear how wrong He is from the religious ones.
          The human side is to claim the promises of God. The divine side is to receive them.

          Comment


          • #6
            The Christian life is not deliverance from trouble as is the common view for Christianity, It is deliverance in trouble which is not the same at all. For he that dwells in the SECRET place of the most high there shall be no evil to befall thee and no plague can come close where I am with God. Plague as in denominations, beliefs systems with Fathers, popes, saints, preachers deacons, elders, and the alike.
            The human side is to claim the promises of God. The divine side is to receive them.

            Comment


            • #7
              In spiritual relationship we do not grow into it little by little, that is of the law, Either you are there or you are not. I didn't get cleansed more and more from sin but when I walked in His same light I was cleansed from all sin and instantly spiritual relationship with God was perfected just as happened in Jesus in Matt 3:16. it happens in the twinkling of an eye all things become new for Jesus and all who receive the same form God.

              And God will brong you back to the same point over and over until you get past that stumbling block of ... Be as I am. I am is such a profound enlightenment for who I am is. And either you are follow his way and is like Him or you are not. .
              The human side is to claim the promises of God. The divine side is to receive them.

              Comment


              • #8
                Everyone in Christ makes a startling discovery -- I AM created for God Who made me in His image. Not many know who I An is do they?

                The Christina character is not doing good but God likeness where the Spirit of God has transformed you where you will exhibit divine characteristics --not good human characteristics. It is a marvelous thing to characterize Gods Spirit as Jesus characterized Gods Spirit.

                The human side is to claim the promises of God. The divine side is to receive them.

                Comment


                • #9
                  In religious sects measure their spiritual capacity by education ... intellect ... instead of the promises of God and these get less than what God wants us to have and before long in the intellect of, these actually slander Him as the servant slanders his master.

                  Letting that natural ability to come in ... will not allow Gods Spirit to come in His supernatural way.

                  You say you have an interpreter that you say is the right interpretation. As for me I relinquished my natural man, ability, and let God come to me and open up all of His heaven to me. he did the same in jesus and all who will.
                  The human side is to claim the promises of God. The divine side is to receive them.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by GaryMac View Post

                    Yeah I know what ya mean. Jesus was so mixed up to those who accused him, it is no different today. We who has from God that what Jesus had from Him, we are just as mixed up as Jesus was for we have the same mind as he had from the Father.

                    Whoever Augustine was is not my concern. My goal is God Himself not what someone else says I should be.

                    Eve it never is Gods will that we be anything less than complete in Him. Eve beware of anything that will split up your oneness with Him and see yourself separately
                    from Him.

                    There is a simple solution to all this bickering between all here in CARM and abroad and it is -- Come unto Me, and Eve every degree that you or anyone else is not real will dispute Gods will to be like Him yourself and will dispute His will rather than come ... Come to where He is yourself.
                    I only gave Augustine, as a foil, to show how very off in canons, how very cold christendom was lead, to be obssessed with sin and actions and forget about Love and His gorgeous creation.

                    And to even speak, the atmosphere is so mixed, that becomes for me impossible to to phrase, so many concepts are now trigger words... My Goal is God Himself too and not what someone else says He is or I should be... I am only interested in Him. : )

                    I agree, if I understand your point, that His will is not that we are in any way subservient lackeys. We are His Children. And we have His Nature. And that point is very hard for many to really get the magnitude of. The entire goal of canons and authorities and laws = to come between, to be in between He and a soul. That is why He hates that so very much. I don't see myself as separate at all from Him! I wish I could express that... because it is the most sweet thing imaginable to be with Him and in Him... And, even if I do have understandings about the cosmology and other things, that is a separate topic. Not hurting or interfering that I am IN Him.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by GaryMac View Post
                      The reason God cannot come into a life is because of not being thorough into repentance.

                      God does not ask me to be like other people He is asking me to be exactly like Himself.

                      Christ died once for all that He may bring us to God. 1 Peter 3:18. It worked for me. It worked for Jesus, it worked for 120. Adam ,Moses. We all came to the place in God, for we are His temple, the place God resides.

                      OK now lets hear how wrong He is from the religious ones.
                      Well, All of His Souls are His, and have His nature, which He gave, since we are in His Image.

                      And yes, I could go into other topics of cosmology but your main interest is only that part so I stop there.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by GaryMac View Post
                        The Christian life is not deliverance from trouble as is the common view for Christianity, It is deliverance in trouble which is not the same at all. For he that dwells in the SECRET place of the most high there shall be no evil to befall thee and no plague can come close where I am with God. Plague as in denominations, beliefs systems with Fathers, popes, saints, preachers deacons, elders, and the alike.
                        Quite the contrary...I've so many trials. For example, I will be out of work soon, due to budget cuts. I have no idea how I will survive. It's quite ugly, the current situation. I've never had so many trials in this world... except the last 4 years since I started with Him.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          When it come to facing Christ on His own merits your attitude becomes one of pious superiority where your high ideas are to impress us but in the reality of Christ casting Himself down from that panicle and puts man in touch with actualities instead of opinions that is conjured by man in his doctrines who has made man a god.

                          Beware of of the fraud that says you cant have that what Jesus had form God to be like him yourself with Jesus had in the Father and you have no misgivings about Jesus when he demands that we be perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect. Pious misgivings knows exactly what God can and cannot do.
                          The human side is to claim the promises of God. The divine side is to receive them.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by GaryMac View Post
                            In spiritual relationship we do not grow into it little by little, that is of the law, Either you are there or you are not. I didn't get cleansed more and more from sin but when I walked in His same light I was cleansed from all sin and instantly spiritual relationship with God was perfected just as happened in Jesus in Matt 3:16. it happens in the twinkling of an eye all things become new for Jesus and all who receive the same form God.

                            And God will brong you back to the same point over and over until you get past that stumbling block of ... Be as I am. I am is such a profound enlightenment for who I am is. And either you are follow his way and is like Him or you are not. .
                            I did meet Him and come to Him, All At Once. Grin.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by GaryMac View Post
                              Everyone in Christ makes a startling discovery -- I AM created for God Who made me in His image. Not many know who I An is do they?

                              The Christina character is not doing good but God likeness where the Spirit of God has transformed you where you will exhibit divine characteristics --not good human characteristics. It is a marvelous thing to characterize Gods Spirit as Jesus characterized Gods Spirit.
                              My phrasing is that His souls have the Eden nature.

                              Comment

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