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Protestants and Catholics share the same belief on the Incarnation: God with us.

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  • Originally posted by Open Heart View Post

    LOGOS does not mean spoken word. Rather, John is clearly referring to Jesus. He is using the Stoic definition of Logos:
    Stoic philosophy began with Zeno of Citium c. 300 BC, in which the logos was the active reason pervading and animating the Universe. It was conceived as material and is usually identified with God or Nature. ... The Stoics took all activity to imply a logos or spiritual principle.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logos

    btw "became flesh" and "was made flesh" means the same thing. If you want to use "was made flesh" that's fine with me -- it's still the incarnation.
    1 In the beginning was JESUS, and JESUS was with God, and JESUS was God.

    2 The same was in the beginning with God.



    14 And JESUS was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


    Does not say that, does it?




    18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.


    So, the "flesh robe"/ "flesh role" of the 2nd person declared the Spirit of the 1st person?

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Open Heart View Post

      God playing roles is modalism. Rather, God the son became incarnate. That's not a role. That's the incarnation. Truly God, truly man.
      Did God the son develop a sperm cell to fertilize Mary's egg to incarnate himself?

      Would not this make God the son the Father of the only begotten son(himself)?

      Why did Jesus refer to the Father as his Father, and not God the son as his Father?

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Open Heart View Post

        Consistent with Trinitarianism.
        Question, do you believe that the Lord Jesus Christ has a God, per this verse?


        Please answer how the many verses that says Jesus has a God while he is now in heaven, is hypothetical.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Open Heart View Post

          No, truther. The incarnation was taught by the Apostle John and is written his gospel in the first chapter when he pens that Logos, which is God, became flesh.
          No, the Apostle John taught that the word of God was made flesh,...... not that the 2nd person of a triune God, Fathered himself into a sperm cell to mate with Mary's egg and come to earth in another life form named by the 1st person, Jesus.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by CrowCross View Post

            Jesus appeared in the OT.....but didn't incarnate until the NT.
            Did the 2nd person impregnate his flesh's mother since the 2nd person "incarnated" himself?

            Is the true Father that mated with Mary, the 2nd person which became the son of Mary?

            Comment


            • Originally posted by CrowCross View Post

              The human nature of Jesus was made..as with any baby being formed in the womb. The Divinity of Christ always existed....and remained with Jesus during His incarnation as well as after His incarnation.
              Then God the son impregnated his "flesh's" mother?

              Comment


              • Originally posted by CrowCross View Post

                I can sort of agree with you here....the Holy Ghost created a sperm....BUT...we know the HG and the Father are both God...but different natures of God....as during the Baptism of Jesus...both the HS and the Father appeared or were heard as different persons.
                2 persons Fathered Jesus then?

                Or did the 1st person, which Jesus constantly referred to as his Father, father him alone?

                Comment


                • Originally posted by CrowCross View Post

                  Jesus made human time.....Just for the record I consider Jesus and the Word the exact same individuals....second of the Trinity.
                  How did the terms 'God the Father" and "God the Son" develop without a "God the Mother"?

                  Is not a mother needed to make a father and a son?

                  Comment


                  • "God the Son" and "God the Holy Ghost" are not found in the Bible in these terms, therefore someone made them up(and is the most quoted phrase in Christendom).

                    Fact is, only "God the Father" is seen in the Bible.....



                    Eph 4:6

                    One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Truther View Post

                      Did God the son develop a sperm cell to fertilize Mary's egg to incarnate himself?

                      Would not this make God the son the Father of the only begotten son(himself)?

                      Why did Jesus refer to the Father as his Father, and not God the son as his Father?
                      Human flesh of a child is not a metastasized flesh in the belly of women; human beings are born of women, from inception to the birth of a new life, as Christ was 'born of woman'. That is to say, women carry the seed of flesh to which the spark of life is added by her mate in the intimacy of their union, a process of life that ensues and a human child - not something like a rabbit, turtle, or demigod. God prepared the body and soul of the Virgin Mary to be the earthly product of her love of God and a habitation worthy of his only begotten Son. Mary never knew sin, actual or original. As the Father, God causes the seed to grow with and in His Wisdom (we can say God provides the "spark" of life, not the human seed; He doesn't create Jesus in the womb of Mary. This Child is both God, and human, “and the Logos [Wisdom] was God”

                      The male role in procreation merely delivers the 'spark of life', insemination. In humans no genetic material remains with the ovaries (the mother's flesh). The 'spark' starts the generative division of cells forming from the mother's fleshy cells into a wholly individual rational being. The resulting life is indeed the flesh of its mother and as such a human being. The child's veins are filled with blood generated within himself; there is no transfer of blood from the mother to the child. Hence, the blood of Christ was the blood of eternal life.

                      This is clearly stated in Luke chapter 1. The Christ Child's life was the personification of God’s Wisdom perfectly joined (incarnate) to the flesh provided by Mary, born of woman human and fathered by God with the Wisdom (Logos) of God as stated in John 1:1. The blood in the Christ Child is the Blood like all human life emanates from the child Himself, it is not intermingled with the blood of the mother, note that it is possible for a mother and child to have different blood types. In order that we might be fully redeemed, body, blood and soul in a union with God as adopted sons and daughters Christ took on two natures uniquely joined and inseparable to pay for our sins. Consequently, what we say of the second Person of the Trinity we can say of Jesus Christ the man and we say of God and vise versa. It was the same God who created water that thirsted for water as He hung on the Cross for our redemption.

                      This ‘marriage’ of the divine and humanity occurs in the womb of Mary at the very point of conception. Unless this is true, Christ is either a created being as metastasized fleshy tumor possessed by a spirit; we know this not to be true. Christ couldn't have come out of a bubble and be God/man or He is a being whose flesh is synthesized within the womb, (the same concept as the mad scientist creating flesh in a test tube), what results simply isn’t human and it surely isn’t divine ~ further, holding this concept turns God into the holy mad scientist and Jesus into Frankenstein). And, in that case Christ is a possessed man with the spirit animating the body; Christ has no will of His own and the human part becomes nothing more than an overcoat to hide the divinity beneath. Consequently, what occurs in the womb of Mary at the singular point of time, His conception, defines who and what Jesus Christ is, God, man, beast, or a gelatinous bag of flesh animated by strings from above.

                      Identifying who and what Christ is extremely important at the sacrifice on the cross. Hanging an overcoat comprised of flesh is not a sacrifice nor is it possible to nail God to a tree. Consequently, misidentifying Mary, her being Ever Virgin, her role as Mother of God identifies who and what Christ is as your own mother identifies you.

                      JoeT
                      Sigillum Militum Χρisti † / "Truth exists. The Incarnation happened."

                      Totus Tuus, "Totally yours . . . Keep me in this union".

                      Comment


                      • Yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.




                        You see, the Father created all things THROUGH his only begotten son.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by JoeT View Post

                          Human flesh of a child is not a metastasized flesh in the belly of women; human beings are born of women, from inception to the birth of a new life, as Christ was 'born of woman'. That is to say, women carry the seed of flesh to which the spark of life is added by her mate in the intimacy of their union, a process of life that ensues and a human child - not something like a rabbit, turtle, or demigod. God prepared the body and soul of the Virgin Mary to be the earthly product of her love of God and a habitation worthy of his only begotten Son. Mary never knew sin, actual or original. As the Father, God causes the seed to grow with and in His Wisdom (we can say God provides the "spark" of life, not the human seed; He doesn't create Jesus in the womb of Mary. This Child is both God, and human, “and the Logos [Wisdom] was God”

                          The male role in procreation merely delivers the 'spark of life', insemination. In humans no genetic material remains with the ovaries (the mother's flesh). The 'spark' starts the generative division of cells forming from the mother's fleshy cells into a wholly individual rational being. The resulting life is indeed the flesh of its mother and as such a human being. The child's veins are filled with blood generated within himself; there is no transfer of blood from the mother to the child. Hence, the blood of Christ was the blood of eternal life.

                          This is clearly stated in Luke chapter 1. The Christ Child's life was the personification of God’s Wisdom perfectly joined (incarnate) to the flesh provided by Mary, born of woman human and fathered by God with the Wisdom (Logos) of God as stated in John 1:1. The blood in the Christ Child is the Blood like all human life emanates from the child Himself, it is not intermingled with the blood of the mother, note that it is possible for a mother and child to have different blood types. In order that we might be fully redeemed, body, blood and soul in a union with God as adopted sons and daughters Christ took on two natures uniquely joined and inseparable to pay for our sins. Consequently, what we say of the second Person of the Trinity we can say of Jesus Christ the man and we say of God and vise versa. It was the same God who created water that thirsted for water as He hung on the Cross for our redemption.

                          This ‘marriage’ of the divine and humanity occurs in the womb of Mary at the very point of conception. Unless this is true, Christ is either a created being as metastasized fleshy tumor possessed by a spirit; we know this not to be true. Christ couldn't have come out of a bubble and be God/man or He is a being whose flesh is synthesized within the womb, (the same concept as the mad scientist creating flesh in a test tube), what results simply isn’t human and it surely isn’t divine ~ further, holding this concept turns God into the holy mad scientist and Jesus into Frankenstein). And, in that case Christ is a possessed man with the spirit animating the body; Christ has no will of His own and the human part becomes nothing more than an overcoat to hide the divinity beneath. Consequently, what occurs in the womb of Mary at the singular point of time, His conception, defines who and what Jesus Christ is, God, man, beast, or a gelatinous bag of flesh animated by strings from above.

                          Identifying who and what Christ is extremely important at the sacrifice on the cross. Hanging an overcoat comprised of flesh is not a sacrifice nor is it possible to nail God to a tree. Consequently, misidentifying Mary, her being Ever Virgin, her role as Mother of God identifies who and what Christ is as your own mother identifies you.

                          JoeT
                          Joe, Mary knew sin.

                          Mary was married to Joseph and had children with him after Jesus was born.

                          Mary even recieved the Holy Ghost with the 120 at Pentecost(Acts 2) because she needed to be born again also.

                          Jesus was the last Adam, but Mary was not the last Eve.....





                          And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Truther View Post

                            Joe, Mary knew sin.
                            She Did! where does the Bible say that?

                            Mary was married to Joseph and had children with him after Jesus was born.
                            Besides Christ, who is said to be the "son or daughter of Mary and Joseph"?

                            Mary even recieved the Holy Ghost with the 120 at Pentecost(Acts 2) because she needed to be born again also.
                            Really? think that one through. Who received Jesus Christ first?

                            Jesus was the last Adam, but Mary was not the last Eve.
                            Jesus Christ is the New Adam, I agree with that. One Adam brought us death, the second Adam brought us life. Saying the 'last Adam' implies more, what will they bring us? I don't agree your with the last statement, Mary is indeed the New Eve.



                            Eve, the O.T. ==> Mary, the N.T.
                            Type Verse Antitype Verse
                            Created without original sin Genesis 2:22-25 Created without original sin Luke 1:28; 42:1
                            There was a virgin Genesis 2:22-25 There is a virgin Luke 1:27-34
                            There was a tree Genesis 2:16-17 There was a cross made from a tree Matthew 27:31-35
                            There was a fallen angel Genesis 3:1-13 There was a loyal angel Luke 1:26-38
                            A satanic serpent tempted her Genesis 3:4-6 A satanic dragon threatened her Apocalypse 12:4-6, 13-17
                            There was pride Genesis 3:4-7 There was humility Luke 1:38
                            There was disobedience Genesis 3:4-7 There was obedience Luke 1:38
                            There was a fall Genesis 3:16-20 There was redemption John 19:34
                            Death came through Eve Genesis 3:17-19 Life Himself came through Mary John 10:28
                            She was mentioned in Genesis 3:2-22 She was mentioned in Genesis 3:15
                            Could not approach the tree of life Genesis 3:24 Approached the "Tree of Life" John 19:25
                            An angel kept her out of Eden Genesis 3:24 An angel protected her Apocalypse 12:7-9
                            Prophecy of the coming of Christ Genesis 3:15 The Incarnation of Christ Luke 2:7
                            Firstborn was a man child Genesis 4:1 Firstborn was a man child Luke 2:7; Apocalypse 12:5
                            Firstborn became a sinner Genesis 4:1-8 Firstborn was the Savior Luke 2:34
                            The mother of all the living Genesis 3:20 The spiritual mother of all the living John 19:27
                            Returned to dust Genesis 3:19 Taken to Heaven Apocalypse 11:19; 12:1
                            Source: http://www.thecatholictreasurechest.com/eve.htm

                            JoeT
                            Last edited by JoeT; 05-15-18, 10:58 PM.
                            Sigillum Militum Χρisti † / "Truth exists. The Incarnation happened."

                            Totus Tuus, "Totally yours . . . Keep me in this union".

                            Comment




                            • Mary was married to Joseph and had children with him after Jesus was born.






                              And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS....




                              3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.


                              Joe, look at the verses.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Open Heart View Post

                                Nice to see that you agree with us on this one.
                                Actually, once in a while Catholicism agrees with God's Word. Just enough to try to fool others.

                                "Cults use Christian terminology, but redefine terms to suit their own belief and practices."-Dr. Walter Martin

                                Catholicism's doctrines of demons:

                                1TI 4:1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,
                                1TI 4:3 men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth.

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