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Protestants and Catholics share the same belief on the Incarnation: God with us.

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  • Originally posted by JoeT View Post
    Well, yes I deny they are progeny of Mary or Joseph. Let’s look at “Brother”, in Greek ἀδελφός (adelphos) According to Strong he gives the following definitions:

    Lexicon :: Strong's G80 - adelphos
    1. a brother, whether born of the same two parents or only of the same father or mother
    2. having the same national ancestor, belonging to the same people, or countryman
    3. any fellow or man
    4. a fellow believer, united to another by the bond of affection
    5. an associate in employment or office
    6. brethren in Christ
      1. a. his brothers by blood
      2. b. all men
      3. c. apostles
      4. d. Christians, as those who are exalted to the same heavenly place
    (Source: https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang...jv&strongs=g80 )


    adelphos does not define the relationship between individual in antiquity clearly unless the relationship is defined. The following are some examples of the ambiguity in "brothers":
    And going on from thence, he saw other two brethren, James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, in a ship with Zebedee their father, mending their nets; and he called them. [Matthew 4:21]
    Brothers appear twice in the verse and furthermore points to the paterfamilias, the father sits in a boat with the brothers mending nets. Clearly verse has two brothers James and John with the same blood related father. Likewise ‘brothers’, mothers or fathers are clearly illustrated in similar verses such as Matthew 10:21; Mark 6:17; Luke 20:28 and John 11:21

    adelphos is used in yet another form to distinguish national ancestry, particularly among the men of Israel. Those whose linage was from Abraham were considered ‘brethren’:
    Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent. [Acts 13:26]
    Here we see the relationship of men based on heritage. ‘Brethren’ are those who are of Abraham’s stock, one of the 12 tribes of Israel. But notice the distinction is ambiguous; one need only be a member of the 12 tribes to be “brothers.” Likewise see Matthew 5:47, after all, even today we refer to brothers as being from the same nation. You might recall the movie ‘Band of Brothers’ and the sense of pride and respect we have for our fathers of WWII who fought as a band of American brothers.

    adelphos is also used to describe our fellow man regardless of nationality. An example:
    For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, [Hebrews 2:11]
    Jesus suffered and died, said St. Paul, for all of mankind, not just the Jew, not just Jerusalem. Again there is an ambiguity of blood relationship except that all humans are related to him through their heritage in Adam and Eve.

    adelphos is used as an expression of affection. This is frequently expressed in the family of God, were no blood relationship exists. We see this brotherly love in Matthew 18:8, John 21:23 and Acts 6:3 and again in St. Paul’s work Romans 1:13:
    Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles. Romans 1:13
    Even today as indifferentism runs rampant we address people as ‘brother’.

    adelphos is used in Sacred Scripture to express fellow officers, notice the use of brethren in Scripture also expresses those a hierarchy of office. Of particular note is St. Paul addressing the Colossians where St. Paul addresses the faithful as well as his fellow Bishop Timothy.
    Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ, by the will of God, and Timothy, a brother, the saints and faithful brethren in Christ Jesus, who are at Colossa. [Colossians 1:1-2]
    Here we see Timothy as a brother Bishop in the Kingdom of God, the Catholic Church and we see the family of God in the faithful “brethren in Christ Jesus”. Please don’t tell me that all the people in the Church of Colossa are blood siblings of Jesus Christ.

    You might also see Colossians 2:13 and Ephesians 4:21 where we see the distinguishing mark of office in ‘brother’. And there is no blood relationship inferred by the text.

    adelphos is used for a brethren in Christ.
    And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. [Matthew 25:40]
    These brethren in Christ are members of His Kingdom, His Church as the first fruit, the ministers of the Lord. They were called brothers because they too became adopted sons of God. Fear not, Christ said, tell my brothers to go to Galilee. Was Christ wasn’t referring only to James His supposed brother, but all those who walked with Him, then and all those who walk with Him now. Also, see also Hebrew 2:11 sqq. Matthew 28:10; John 20:17 Romans 8:29

    So we see that when St. Paul refers to James the Lord’s brother, Paul is acknowledging James is an Apostle, as He is. He is acknowledging there is a hierarchy being established within the Church where certain leading members are organizing into the core Magisterium. Consequently, By His Mercy has correctly identified which adelphos was being used in the text.
    1) James, son of Zebedee (Matthew 4:21, Matthew 10:2, Mark 1:19-20, Mark 3:17, etc.)

    2) James, son of Alpheus (Matthew 10:3, Mark 3:18, etc.)
    In fact we can name all the adelphos in Scripture such that none is left as the blood related sibling of Christ.
    As an aside, it has been suggested that the Greek συγγενής (syggenēs), meaning in, or clansmen as well as countryman, would have been used if the blood relationship between “brothers” was something less than that of blood related siblings. However, it seems that the overwhelming number of the uses of “brother” meaning something other than a blood related sibling makes the argument weak if not void all together. As an example, Christ lists the various relationships distinguishing brethren from clansmen:
    “Then said he also to him that bade him, When thou makest a dinner or a supper, call not thy friends, nor thy brethren, neither thy kinsmen, nor thy rich neighbours; lest they also bid thee again, and a recompense be made thee” [Luke 14:12]
    Even more important the reason that adelphos is frequently used by Christ because of His two greatest commandments, the first commandment defines the second. “Master,” Christ is asked, “which is the greatest commandment in the law? Jesus said to him: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind. This is the greatest and the first commandment. And the second is like to this: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments dependeth the whole law and the prophets.” [Matthew 22:36 - 40] Without exception Christ is calling all to be His brother as adopted sons of God and our neighbor's brother as well.

    Another problem with adelphos is the way kings and queens looked at heredity. Christ is our Lord and King, His brothers would have rightly inherited the Kingdom. No one in Scripture steps forward for His inheritance. Christ had to give His mother to John as He hung on the Cross, else the oldest remaining brother would have taken her. Mark, would have known these individuals refers but refers to them ambiguously, as "brothers." If Mark wished to be clear on the matter he would have said that Mary or Joseph was the mother of James, Joses, Juda and Simon - who are individuals identified as having different mothers and fathers.

    There is in excess of 26 individuals identified as "bothers of the Lord" all of whom are also identified as having different parents. I'd be happy to share them with you.

    Brother, your response doesn't identify these so called 'brothers' of Jesus Christ except as country men, remote kin, or a fellow believer.

    JoeT
    The Jews were offended because he had "brethren"?


    Lol

    Comment


    • Originally posted by CrowCross View Post

      I don't disagree...but the Word...that was spirit....took on flesh.

      Do you remember the parts of you? soul, spirit, flesh......kind of a trinity.
      I don't think creation is akin to the Creator.

      The Creator is an omnipresent Spirit and I am local parts and not omipresent..

      Comment


      • Originally posted by CrowCross View Post

        The verse mentions who of the God head .....did you notice who....are are you playing the simpleton?
        So, the flesh of the Godhead is speaking of the Spirit of the Godhead or something like that?

        Please clarify who Jesus was referring to in John 4:24.

        Thanks.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Truther View Post

          The Jews were offended because he had "brethren"?
          Lol
          They were scandalized by him knowing His lowly birth and humble parents, no more than servant class, a carpenter's son and likely a carpenter himself. Such don't speak like prophets.

          JoeT
          Sigillum Militum Χρisti † / "Truth exists. The Incarnation happened."

          Totus Tuus, "Totally yours . . . Keep me in this union".

          Comment


          • Originally posted by JoeT View Post

            They were scandalized by him knowing His lowly birth and humble parents, no more than servant class, a carpenter's son and likely a carpenter himself. Such don't speak like prophets.

            JoeT
            See how commentary trump's the literal meaning of the scripture?

            Joe, you just made a classic case for it.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Truther View Post

              See how commentary trump's the literal meaning of the scripture?

              Joe, you just made a classic case for it.
              Thank you, the classic commentary I gave is the literal meaning.

              JoeT
              Sigillum Militum Χρisti † / "Truth exists. The Incarnation happened."

              Totus Tuus, "Totally yours . . . Keep me in this union".

              Comment


              • Originally posted by JoeT View Post

                Thank you, the classic commentary I gave is the literal meaning.

                JoeT
                Lol

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Truther View Post

                  1 In the beginning was JESUS, and JESUS was with God, and JESUS was God.

                  2 The same was in the beginning with God.



                  14 And JESUS was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


                  Does not say that, does it?
                  Actually it does. If A is B, and A is also C, and C is D, then D is A and can be substituted for A.
                  Logos is God
                  Logos became flesh (man)
                  That man was named Jesus.
                  Therefore we an substitute Jesus for Logos
                  i.e. Jesus is God.


                  18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
                  "God" often refers to God the Father; it does so in this instance. No one has ever seen God the Father.

                  So, the "flesh robe"/ "flesh role" of the 2nd person declared the Spirit of the 1st person?
                  I can't make heads or tales of this it is so incomprehensible to me. There is no role or robe involved with the Trinity. The second person of the Trinity did not play act role of being a man, Jesus. The second person of the Trinity literally DID become a man while remaining God. The Holy Spirit is the third person of the Trinity. He is not the spirit of the Father or of the Son.
                  Last edited by Open Heart; 05-17-18, 02:44 AM.
                  Open Heart, who loves the Lord.

                  "Torah is not education, it's transformation." – Rebbitzen Dena Weinberg

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Truther View Post

                    Did God the son develop a sperm cell to fertilize Mary's egg to incarnate himself?


                    Would not this make God the son the Father of the only begotten son(himself)?

                    Why did Jesus refer to the Father as his Father, and not God the son as his Father?
                    1. God the Son did not impregnate Mary.
                    2. God the Son is eternally begotten of God the Father. It is those two who have the parent/child relationship, but this does not refer to Mary or her egg or any sperm.
                    3. We know that the pregnancy happened because the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary. The HS is the 3rd person of the trinity, who proceeds from the Father. That doesn't tell us much, except that it was a miracle, and that Mary was litrally the physical mother of Jesus. How Jesus received the other half of his DNA, including his Y chromosome? You'll have to ask God when you get to heaven.
                    Open Heart, who loves the Lord.

                    "Torah is not education, it's transformation." – Rebbitzen Dena Weinberg

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Truther View Post
                      Question, do you believe that the Lord Jesus Christ has a God, per this verse?


                      Please answer how the many verses that says Jesus has a God while he is now in heaven, is hypothetical.
                      Of course! Though he was God, he was also fully man, and a Jew to boot. The God the Father, Hashem, was his God, whom he obeyed and worshiped along with the rest of Israel. He kept every law, and gave every sacrifice, perfectly.
                      Open Heart, who loves the Lord.

                      "Torah is not education, it's transformation." – Rebbitzen Dena Weinberg

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Truther View Post

                        No, the Apostle John taught that the word of God was made flesh,...... not that the 2nd person of a triune God, Fathered himself into a sperm cell to mate with Mary's egg and come to earth in another life form named by the 1st person, Jesus.
                        Truther, I'm surprised to find out you don't know what Trinitarianism is. We don't teach that the second person of th Trinity fathered himself. I refer you to my earlier post on this matter. Oh, and btw, it is Jesus who is the second person of the Trinity, God the son,... did we have confusion over that as well?

                        God the Father -- first person\
                        God the Son -- second person
                        God the HS -- third person
                        Open Heart, who loves the Lord.

                        "Torah is not education, it's transformation." – Rebbitzen Dena Weinberg

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Truther View Post

                          2 persons Fathered Jesus then?

                          Or did the 1st person, which Jesus constantly referred to as his Father, father him alone?
                          Again, Scripture just doesn't spell out the miracle for you. It only says that the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary. If you don't think that's good enough, ask God for a different Bible. We also know that Jesus is God's only Son (John 3:16). The Early Church worked this out by saying the Son being begotten by the Father was something different than the incarnation. They said the Son was ETERNALLY begotten of the Father, whereas the incarnation, when Mary conceived, happened only at that one moment in history by the overshadowing of the Holy Spirit.
                          Open Heart, who loves the Lord.

                          "Torah is not education, it's transformation." – Rebbitzen Dena Weinberg

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Truther View Post

                            How did the terms 'God the Father" and "God the Son" develop without a "God the Mother"?

                            Is not a mother needed to make a father and a son?
                            There simply isn't a fourth person of the Trinity conventionally known as God the Mother. However, many people think of the HS as a she.
                            Open Heart, who loves the Lord.

                            "Torah is not education, it's transformation." – Rebbitzen Dena Weinberg

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Truther View Post
                              "God the Son" and "God the Holy Ghost" are not found in the Bible in these terms, therefore someone made them up(and is the most quoted phrase in Christendom).

                              Fact is, only "God the Father" is seen in the Bible.....



                              Eph 4:6

                              One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
                              The exact words are not there. Those exact words were formulated as a label for the concept that WAS in the Bible -- the LOGOS that was God, etc.
                              Open Heart, who loves the Lord.

                              "Torah is not education, it's transformation." – Rebbitzen Dena Weinberg

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Truther View Post

                                So, the flesh of the Godhead is speaking of the Spirit of the Godhead or something like that?

                                Please clarify who Jesus was referring to in John 4:24.

                                Thanks.
                                God th Father only
                                Open Heart, who loves the Lord.

                                "Torah is not education, it's transformation." – Rebbitzen Dena Weinberg

                                Comment

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