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Moved to APO: Id vs. Sin Nature

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  • Moved to APO: Id vs. Sin Nature

    According to theory, the "id" consists of our primitive, natural instincts. Id is guided by the "pleasure principle" (or pain avoidance) which principle is that we react to certain stimuli a) without thinking b/c we want b) immediate gratification of our needs or urges. The id is stimulated first and directly by the flesh .. that is, in biblical terms, the id is our "carnal mind." (Ro 8:5-9)

    If we would take a moment to think about the stimulus at hand (in our ego or spirit) .. that is, delay our gratification and consider the moral aspects (superego, heart and conscience/soul) of how we will respond to the id .. we could make spiritual rather than carnal or fleshly decision. And since we ALL have the "law of God written on our hearts, our consciences bearing witness…" (1Cor 2:14-15), this would be the mature way of responding to stimuli as we tend to do as adults who consider the social consequences of carnal, instant gratification reactions.

    Lastly, we are born totally guided by the id. (This would seem to be where Calvinists come up with their notion of "total depravity") When hungry, we cry. When discomforted by a dirty diaper, we cry. We are given no other ability than these id responses. But these responses are given by God for our "good." We are His spiritual "offspring" (Acts 17:28-29). It is our corruptible flesh through the id that leads to the corruption/condemnation of our soul and spirit.

    Now the sin nature is whole 'nother thing. The sin nature is in the soul. Sin nature is learned by adapting our id responses in accordance with what gets us what we want. If that results in stealing, then we have created a sin nature of thievery within our soul which, if unregulated, can become in adulthood, demon possession of the soul. And this is even before we come to know God and His commandments. As Paul recites in Ro 7, when we knowingly sin against God, our soul dies to God and we solidify our intent to do our own will and His only if it is convenient.

    Now when you are saved, you receive the Holy Ghost, the divine nature, and cannot sin in your heart or conscience (1Jn 3:9). That should be the end of sin, right? Wrong .. because there is still the id that, if we respond to it without thinking so we can have our instant gratification, we can sin even though in our heart we do not want to sin.

    So while the Christian is "not in the flesh" if he has the Spirit of God (Ro 8:9), he is not sinless in the flesh either. God calls us to think about what the id receives and react in ways that are godly, not as needing instant gratification but often in delayed blessing!

    Realize that the ego/spirit (mind, emotions, and will), is the battlefield between the id and the superego/soul. You can see this now, can't you? If the stimulus is the gospel of Jesus Christ, God is calling you to reason together with Him in your mind (the battlefield) and open your heart to His salvation from sin and from being a burden to yourself (Job 7:21-22).

    skypair
    Last edited by CARM Admin; 06-24-18, 12:09 AM.

  • #2
    Originally posted by skypair View Post
    According to theory, the "id" consists of our primitive, natural instincts. Id is guided by the "pleasure principle" (or pain avoidance) which principle is that we react to certain stimuli a) without thinking b/c we want b) immediate gratification of our needs or urges. The id is stimulated first and directly by the flesh .. that is, in biblical terms, the id is our "carnal mind." (Ro 8:5-9)

    If we would take a moment to think about the stimulus at hand (in our ego or spirit) .. that is, delay our gratification and consider the moral aspects (superego, heart and conscience/soul) of how we will respond to the id .. we could make spiritual rather than carnal or fleshly decision. And since we ALL have the "law of God written on our hearts, our consciences bearing witness…" (1Cor 2:14-15), this would be the mature way of responding to stimuli as we tend to do as adults who consider the social consequences of carnal, instant gratification reactions.

    Lastly, we are born totally guided by the id. (This would seem to be where Calvinists come up with their notion of "total depravity") When hungry, we cry. When discomforted by a dirty diaper, we cry. We are given no other ability than these id responses. But these responses are given by God for our "good." We are His spiritual "offspring" (Acts 17:28-29). It is our corruptible flesh through the id that leads to the corruption/condemnation of our soul and spirit.

    Now the sin nature is whole 'nother thing. The sin nature is in the soul. Sin nature is learned by adapting our id responses in accordance with what gets us what we want. If that results in stealing, then we have created a sin nature of thievery within our soul which, if unregulated, can become in adulthood, demon possession of the soul. And this is even before we come to know God and His commandments. As Paul recites in Ro 7, when we knowingly sin against God, our soul dies to God and we solidify our intent to do our own will and His only if it is convenient.

    Now when you are saved, you receive the Holy Ghost, the divine nature, and cannot sin in your heart or conscience (1Jn 3:9). That should be the end of sin, right? Wrong .. because there is still the id that, if we respond to it without thinking so we can have our instant gratification, we can sin even though in our heart we do not want to sin.

    So while the Christian is "not in the flesh" if he has the Spirit of God (Ro 8:9), he is not sinless in the flesh either. God calls us to think about what the id receives and react in ways that are godly, not as needing instant gratification but often in delayed blessing!

    Realize that the ego/spirit (mind, emotions, and will), is the battlefield between the id and the superego/soul. You can see this now, can't you? If the stimulus is the gospel of Jesus Christ, God is calling you to reason together with Him in your mind (the battlefield) and open your heart to His salvation from sin and from being a burden to yourself (Job 7:21-22).

    skypair
    From long ago, the id.


    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IYFr3UyVpRA


    harry

    Comment


    • #3
      If the "Id" is....It was caused by the fall.
      You said above..." immediate gratification of our needs or urges"...That would be selfishness .

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by skypair View Post
        Now when you are saved, you receive the Holy Ghost, the divine nature, and cannot sin in your heart or conscience (1Jn 3:9).

        skypair
        If you are saved..and can't sin in your heart and conscience...Then you can't lose your salvation.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by CrowCross View Post
          If the "Id" is....It was caused by the fall.
          You said above..." immediate gratification of our needs or urges"...That would be selfishness .
          Yes! You are getting it! So think about it .. when we inhabit our new bodies, the id will be completely satisfied and there will be no need to take instinctual shortcuts -- to sin.

          skypair

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by CrowCross View Post
            If you are saved..and can't sin in your heart and conscience...Then you can't lose your salvation.
            Excellent! So the consequences of sin will be limited to earthly ones and loss of rewards above (but no condemnation).

            skypair

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by skypair View Post
              Excellent! So the consequences of sin will be limited to earthly ones and loss of rewards above (but no condemnation).

              skypair
              Something like that.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by skypair View Post
                Yes! You are getting it! So think about it .. when we inhabit our new bodies, the id will be completely satisfied and there will be no need to take instinctual shortcuts -- to sin.

                skypair
                Kinda like pre-fall.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by skypair View Post
                  According to theory, the "id" consists of our primitive, natural instincts. Id is guided by the "pleasure principle" (or pain avoidance) which principle is that we react to certain stimuli a) without thinking b/c we want b) immediate gratification of our needs or urges. The id is stimulated first and directly by the flesh .. that is, in biblical terms, the id is our "carnal mind." (Ro 8:5-9)

                  If we would take a moment to think about the stimulus at hand (in our ego or spirit) .. that is, delay our gratification and consider the moral aspects (superego, heart and conscience/soul) of how we will respond to the id .. we could make spiritual rather than carnal or fleshly decision. And since we ALL have the "law of God written on our hearts, our consciences bearing witness…" (1Cor 2:14-15), this would be the mature way of responding to stimuli as we tend to do as adults who consider the social consequences of carnal, instant gratification reactions.

                  Lastly, we are born totally guided by the id. (This would seem to be where Calvinists come up with their notion of "total depravity") When hungry, we cry. When discomforted by a dirty diaper, we cry. We are given no other ability than these id responses. But these responses are given by God for our "good." We are His spiritual "offspring" (Acts 17:28-29). It is our corruptible flesh through the id that leads to the corruption/condemnation of our soul and spirit.

                  Now the sin nature is whole 'nother thing. The sin nature is in the soul. Sin nature is learned by adapting our id responses in accordance with what gets us what we want. If that results in stealing, then we have created a sin nature of thievery within our soul which, if unregulated, can become in adulthood, demon possession of the soul. And this is even before we come to know God and His commandments. As Paul recites in Ro 7, when we knowingly sin against God, our soul dies to God and we solidify our intent to do our own will and His only if it is convenient.

                  Now when you are saved, you receive the Holy Ghost, the divine nature, and cannot sin in your heart or conscience (1Jn 3:9). That should be the end of sin, right? Wrong .. because there is still the id that, if we respond to it without thinking so we can have our instant gratification, we can sin even though in our heart we do not want to sin.

                  So while the Christian is "not in the flesh" if he has the Spirit of God (Ro 8:9), he is not sinless in the flesh either. God calls us to think about what the id receives and react in ways that are godly, not as needing instant gratification but often in delayed blessing!

                  Realize that the ego/spirit (mind, emotions, and will), is the battlefield between the id and the superego/soul. You can see this now, can't you? If the stimulus is the gospel of Jesus Christ, God is calling you to reason together with Him in your mind (the battlefield) and open your heart to His salvation from sin and from being a burden to yourself (Job 7:21-22).

                  skypair
                  A sadder explanation I have never heard!

                  The Id, the self, is always controlled by a master (Matt 6:24), the question is, which one? If the sinful nature, then it's desires are focused inwardly on itself, and away from the desires of God and thus, hostile to God (Rom 8:7), but if by the Spirit of life, it is life and peace (Rom 8:6, 5:1). The one you obey is the one you serve. (Rom 6:16) We are by nature (that means from the get-go of life in technical theological terms) children of wrath. (Eph 2:3) But those in Christ have been set free from the the law of sin and death and are no longer obligated to obey the sinful nature (Rom 8:2, 12), but Paul is clearer than crystal that any brother that does follow the sinful nature will die. (Rom 6:23, 8:13, Eph 5:1-7)


                  Doug
                  Dare to be Gracious

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by skypair View Post
                    Yes! You are getting it! So think about it .. when we inhabit our new bodies, the id will be completely satisfied and there will be no need to take instinctual shortcuts -- to sin.

                    skypair
                    You make it sound like an alien possession of the human body that is not Christianity. Its our own body that is raised to be incorruptible, immortal. Our id or whatever you call it sky doesn't need to be satisfied or take shortcuts or have instincts those are all things of the flesh, carnality of fallen man. We will be like the pre-fall adam but on steroids with no possibility to even think or be tempted by anything or anyone for all that will have been done away with in the Resurrection, New Heavens/New Earth. And our personalities that make us who we are will still be part of who we will be in that day just PERFECT like our Savior. Stick with Scripture and stay away from freud.

                    hope this helps !!!
                    His true identity as both Lord (κύριος used by the LXX to translate Yahweh) and God (θεός used by the LXX to translate Elohim)netbible John 20:28[In John's writings] Of the approximately 70 instances in which ουτος has a personal referent, as many as 44 of them (almost 2/3) refer to the Son. Of the remainder most imply some sort of positive connection with the Son.What is most significant is that NEVER is the Father the referent. 1 John 5:20, Wallace

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by civic View Post

                      You make it sound like an alien possession of the human body that is not Christianity. Its our own body that is raised to be incorruptible, immortal. Our id or whatever you call it sky doesn't need to be satisfied or take shortcuts or have instincts those are all things of the flesh, carnality of fallen man. We will be like the pre-fall adam but on steroids with no possibility to even think or be tempted by anything or anyone for all that will have been done away with in the Resurrection, New Heavens/New Earth. And our personalities that make us who we are will still be part of who we will be in that day just PERFECT like our Savior. Stick with Scripture and stay away from freud.

                      hope this helps !!!
                      +2
                      John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by TibiasDad View Post
                        A sadder explanation I have never heard!

                        The Id, the self, is always controlled by a master (Matt 6:24), the question is, which one?
                        Sure. So the question is: Are we controlled by our moral center (soul/superego) or by our fleshly center ("law in my members"/id)?

                        If the sinful nature, then it's desires are focused inwardly on itself, and away from the desires of God and thus, hostile to God (Rom 8:7), but if by the Spirit of life,
                        Correct, and these 2 cannot exist in our moral center simultaneously. How it works is that we are born "total id" .. no intellect and no moral center. As we grow and learn, the id leads us into sin and the sin nature gains a stronghold in our moral center/soul. When we repent of sin and selfishness, the sin nature is replaced by the "new nature" or "divine nature ("the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus," Ro 8:2). Yet the id still exists in our members. We are NEVER going to not get hungry, have an itch to scratch, not respond to pain of all sorts improperly, etc.

                        The one you obey is the one you serve. (Rom 6:16)
                        This is true in the natural, unsaved man but just like Paul expresses it in Ro 7:25 -- "So then with my mind I serve the law of God, but with my flesh the law of sin." Now Paul here is in a saved condition .. saved under the law and OT. Ro 8:9 tells us that, if we are in the Spirit if the Spirit of God dwells in us .. we are not in the flesh. The body is dead .. the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

                        We are by nature (that means from the get-go of life in technical theological terms) children of wrath. (Eph 2:3)
                        No, that is your wrong inference. The text is talking about as adults. "Fulfilling the desires of the flesh" = the id. "...and of the mind" = sin nature. And so "by nature" means that the id led us to become children of wrath. But we had not become children of wrath had we not understood what we were doing when we sinned.

                        But those in Christ have been set free from the the law of sin and death and are no longer obligated to obey the sinful nature (Rom 8:2, 12), but Paul is clearer than crystal that any brother that does follow the sinful nature will die. (Rom 6:23, 8:13, Eph 5:1-7)
                        Well, see now you are making the argument against OSAS. Actually, we are no longer servants to the id.

                        Is there something that you find wrong with this reasoning?

                        skypair

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by civic View Post
                          You make it sound like an alien possession of the human body that is not Christianity. Its our own body that is raised to be incorruptible, immortal.
                          So let me ask you this: Was Jesus raised in His birth-given body? or was He raised in a new, spiritual body that was incorruptible? Not flesh and blood but flesh and Spirit since "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God" and be seated at the right hand of His Father?

                          Our id or whatever you call it sky doesn't need to be satisfied or take shortcuts or have instincts those are all things of the flesh, carnality of fallen man.
                          As long as we are a "new creation" in our old body, we will desire instant or expeditious gratification over waiting to receive it from God. You know this for yourself, right?

                          We will be like the pre-fall adam...
                          I am glad you understand this. When Jesus was raised from the dead into His eternal, spiritual body, it was the same body that He gave Adam when He created him. In other words, Adam was created a spiritual body. He fell and received a temporal, "natural" body as we also inherit from him, right? But within the flesh and blood, God creates in us at birth a new spiritual person which is "total id" .. the id responding to our fleshly needs.

                          And our personalities that make us who we are will still be part of who we will be in that day just PERFECT like our Savior.
                          Just no id .. like our risen Savior, civic. You may need more explanation before you continue jumping to conclusions, my friend.

                          skypair

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by skypair View Post
                            So let me ask you this: Was Jesus raised in His birth-given body? or was He raised in a new, spiritual body that was incorruptible? Not flesh and blood but flesh and Spirit since "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God" and be seated at the right hand of His Father?

                            skypair
                            The same body Jesus died with and was buried was raised from the dead immortal. He has the scars to prove it was the same body as evidenced by Thomas request that he would not believe the Resurrection until he saw and touched the scars , wounds from the Crucifixion. This is the Christian Faith that salvation rests upon and the heart of the gospel is the bodily Resurrection / Ascension of Jesus. You do not believe in the biblical / bodily Resurrection of Jesus sky otherwise you would confess Jesus has a Resurrected glorified body that is real flesh , real bones and material human body. Jesus is forever the God- man , Incarnate( in the flesh) not sinful flesh , carnal flesh as you falsely believe. This is the historic and biblical Resurrection of Jesus believed by the Apostles and the church throughout history. Any other teaching is HERESY.

                            I will Iíll not even address your other comments until you get Jesus and His Resurrection correct.

                            hope this helps !!!
                            His true identity as both Lord (κύριος used by the LXX to translate Yahweh) and God (θεός used by the LXX to translate Elohim)netbible John 20:28[In John's writings] Of the approximately 70 instances in which ουτος has a personal referent, as many as 44 of them (almost 2/3) refer to the Son. Of the remainder most imply some sort of positive connection with the Son.What is most significant is that NEVER is the Father the referent. 1 John 5:20, Wallace

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by civic View Post

                              The same body Jesus died with and was buried was raised from the dead immortal. He has the scars to prove it was the same body....
                              They were not scars. They were holes. They proved that he was not yet immortal. Immortal bodies do not have holes. He wasn't changed until he ascended into heaven.

                              Comment

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