Announcement

Collapse

Message to all users:

https://carm.org/forum-rules

Super Member Subscription
https://carm.org/carm-super-members-banner-ad-signup

As most of you are aware, we had a crash to forums and were down for over two days a while back. We did have to do an upgrade to the vbulletin software to fix the forums and that has created changes, VB no longer provide the hybrid or threaded forums. There are some issues/changes to the forums we are not able to fix or change. Also note the link address change, please let friends and posters know of the changed link to the forums. For now this is the only link available, https://forums.carm.org/vb5/ but if clicking on forum on carm.org homepage it will now send you to this link. (edited to add https: now working.

Again, we are working through some of the posting and viewing issues to learn how to post with the changes, you will have to check and test the different features, icons that have changed. You may also want to go to profile settings,since many of the notifications, information in profile, also to update/edit your avatar by clicking on avatar space, pull down arrow next to login for user settings.

Edit to add "How to read forums, to make it easier."
Pull down arrow next to login name upper right select profile, or user settings when page opens to profile,select link in tab that says Account. Then select/choose options, go down to Conversation Detail Options, Select Display mode Posts, NOT Activity, that selection of Posts will make the pages of discussions go to last post on last page rather than out of order that happens if you choose activity threads. Then be sure to go to bottom and select SAVE Changes in your profile options. You can then follow discussions by going through the pages, to the last page having latest responses. Then click on the other links Privacy, Notifications, to select viewing options,the forums get easier if you open all the tabs or links in your profile, user settings and select options. To join Super Member, pull down arrow next to login name, select User Settings and then click on tab/link at top that says Subscriptions.

Thank you for your patience and God Bless.

Diane S
https://carm.org/forum-rules
See more
See less

moved from RCC board

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • moved from RCC board

    Originally posted by Florida Angler View Post


    Have you ever examined the two verses in question and compared their use of the words "gennethe anothen" and "gennethe"(apologies for the lack of punctuation. I'm doing this from a phone that does not have the proper fonts installed.)? Unless qualified, gennethe refers to literal, physical birth, as we see in John 9:2. However, in v. 3, we see it qualified with the anothen, which means "from above", as we see in John 3:3. So what we see is not Christ telling us that we are born again by water and by the Spirit, but contrasting the need to be born again with our physical birth. There's nothing in the text to indicate that we are born again by water. The "again" was something added by Catholic translators to justify Catholicism's heretical belief in salvation by baptism.
    I found another a translation I like to use - Young's Literal Translation -
    3 Jesus answered and said to him, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;'

    II wonder if it is Catholic why do evangelicals use the term "Born Again"?

    I prefer born from above translation!! It seems to strengthen the argument for a connecting water and spirit in the Sacrament.

    How does this term born from above dispute the need for "water kai Spirit"?

    Do you have a reference as to when Catholics added the again?
    2 Timothy 3
    16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

  • #2
    Originally posted by pvb
    II wonder if it is Catholic why do evangelicals use the term "Born Again"?
    Clearly, you didn't read what I wrote. I didn't say "born again" is Catholic. I said it does not appear in the verse in question in the original language.

    I prefer born from above translation!! It seems to strengthen the argument for a connecting water and spirit in the Sacrament.
    Of course you do. You're Catholic. And by adding language that doesn't appear in the original texts, it supports your beliefs. And, as all good Catholics do, you prefer your Catholic beliefs to the truth of scripture.

    How does this term born from above dispute the need for "water kai Spirit"?
    Who said it does?

    Do you have a reference as to when Catholics added the again?
    https://www.catholiccompany.com/douay-rheims-c465/

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Florida Angler View Post

      Wow. edit per mod Where did I say being saved isn't entering the Kingdom?

      Ah, the Douay-Rheims. That explains it.

      Have you ever examined the two verses in question and compared their use of the words "gennethe anothen" and "gennethe"(apologies for the lack of punctuation. I'm doing this from a phone that does not have the proper fonts installed.)? Unless qualified, gennethe refers to literal, physical birth, as we see in John 9:2. However, in v. 3, we see it qualified with the anothen, which means "from above", as we see in John 3:3. So what we see is not Christ telling us that we are born again by water and by the Spirit, but contrasting the need to be born again with our physical birth. There's nothing in the text to indicate that we are born again by water. The "again" was something added by Catholic translators to justify Catholicism's heretical belief in salvation by baptism.

      .....
      This is what I was referring to. What did you mean to say?

      No I am not Roman Catholic.
      2 Timothy 3
      16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by pvb View Post

        This is what I was referring to. What did you mean to say?
        I don't know what you don't understand. I was very clearly comparing the use of the phrase "born again" in two verses and explained why it was a correct translation of one but not of the other.

        Did I use too many big words or something?

        No I am not Roman Catholic.
        And yet, you use the same tactics as they do.

        Originally posted by De Maria View Post
        Regeneration occurs in Baptism.

        I understand that your religion teaches that, but the Bible says regeneration occurs first, and then we are moved to obedience unto baptism.

        If regeneration occurs first, then why does Galatians tell us Paul had faith and had received the Holy Spirit
        before
        he was baptized?

        James 2:24 Ye see then how that
        by works a man is justified,
        and not by faith only.

        What do you do with that? Notice how it says, not by faith alone.

        What's funny about this is that in another thread, you got very upset when I said you often take Bible verses out of context and insisted you do not.

        And yet, here we see that you do.

        Originally posted by De Maria
        Jesus saves us through the Waters of Baptism.

        The Bible says Jesus saved us through the cross. Why should I believe you over the Bible?

        Originally posted by De Maria View Post

        That's not what Scripture says:
        Mark 16:16 King James Version (KJV)

        16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

        Is there a reason you keep posting only the first half of this verse? I mean, after the other day when you vehemently insisted that you NEVER post Bible verses out of context, I would think you'd be a little more careful. But here you are, posting a Bible verse out of context, only posting the part you like, and ignoring the part you don't.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Florida Angler View Post

          I don't know what you don't understand. I was very clearly comparing the use of the phrase "born again" in two verses and explained why it was a correct translation of one but not of the other.

          Did I use too many big words or something?

          And yet, you use the same tactics as they do.

          .....
          John 3
          31 he who from above is coming is above all; he who is from the earth, from the earth he is, and from the earth he speaketh; he who from the heaven is coming is above all.

          from above Strong's g509 ἄνωθεν anōthen

          John 3
          5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

          and Strong's g2532 καί kai - copulative

          Can you equate water with physical birth?
          2 Timothy 3
          16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by pvb View Post

            John 3
            31 he who from above is coming is above all; he who is from the earth, from the earth he is, and from the earth he speaketh; he who from the heaven is coming is above all.

            from above Strong's g509 ἄͦئȦŦ an*then
            Irrelevant. Verse 31 is not the verse in question.

            John 3
            5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

            and Strong's g2532 ʦί kai - copulative

            Can you equate water with physical birth?[/QUOTE]

            Yes. Amniotic fluid is often referred to as "water". We still do so today.

            John 19:34 also describes the pericardial fluid that poured out when Christ's heart was pierced by the Roman sword as "water".

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Florida Angler View Post

              Irrelevant. Verse 31 is not the verse in question.
              .....

              Yes. Amniotic fluid is often referred to as "water". We still do so today.

              John 19:34 also describes the pericardial fluid that poured out when Christ's heart was pierced by the Roman sword as "water".
              You were using verse John 9:2, chapters later. I find it best to verses in the same chapter the same word.

              Nicodemus, a Pharisees,most likely understood what being born physically involved. And Nicodemus was already physically born. BUT would he have known about spiritual birth? 6 that which hath been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which hath been born of the Spirit is spirit.

              Then there is that word kai!!

              More context -
              John 3
              22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples to the land of Judea, and there he did tarry with them, and was baptizing;
              23 and John was also baptizing in Aenon, nigh to Salem, because there were many waters there, and they were coming and were being baptized --
              2 Timothy 3
              16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by pvb View Post

                I found another a translation I like to use - Young's Literal Translation -
                3 Jesus answered and said to him, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;'

                II wonder if it is Catholic why do evangelicals use the term "Born Again"?

                I prefer born from above translation!! It seems to strengthen the argument for a connecting water and spirit in the Sacrament.

                How does this term born from above dispute the need for "water kai Spirit"?

                Do you have a reference as to when Catholics added the again?
                If one hears God for yourself one doesn't need a translator for the translator is God Himself.
                The human side is to claim the promises of God. The divine side is to receive them.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by GaryMac View Post

                  If one hears God for yourself one doesn't need a translator for the translator is God Himself.
                  Yes I agree. We were discussing Greek words from Scripture.
                  2 Timothy 3
                  16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by pvb View Post

                    Yes I agree. We were discussing Greek words from Scripture.
                    I understand, that is why I said what I did.
                    The human side is to claim the promises of God. The divine side is to receive them.

                    Comment

                    Working...
                    X