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  • Originally posted by Theo1689 View Post

    <Chuckle>

    Let's hope your quotes are more accurate than your quote of "Juergan Neve"...
    I notice James Swan didn't say how he read the statement, so who knows. But James defends Luther like you defend Calvin, yes it's sad but true.

    No conviction,No conversion
    John 16:8
    And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Bigboy View Post
      Are you sure you are reading page 285 correct, if you are maybe you could clear that up its all over the internet.
      I know you are a Martin Luther apologist, he was more wicked than Calvin. A demon possessed wicked butcher that was Luther.
      When I quote something, I try to make sure I've actually read the context. I suggest that for credibility sake, you do the same before you post a quote from a book you do not appear to have. It can be very embarrassing: you set yourself up as being right about something, and then the fact you cite from a book you've not read exposes that... what you actually have is a presupposed bias that isn't really concerned with the truth.

      Yes, this quote is all over the internet, which is why I went and bought the book back in 2013 to see what was going on. A simple Google search for the title, Luther on Calvin in Geneva: "With a death sentence they solve all argumentation"... will bring you to my comments and documentation of the quote from Neve. Remember: simply because someone quotes something on the Internet doesn't make it true. My entry includes the relevant section from 285, and I also document what Luther was actually talking about (the defenders of Rome). Go ahead, buy the book yourself and check my citation. I would welcome that.

      In regard to being "a Martin Luther apologist," keep in mind, I'm not a Lutheran. I don't have anything to gain. I'm simply fascinated by the bias and lack of care that many folks exhibit when it comes to Luther.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Bigboy View Post
        letter to the Marquis Paet, chamberlain to the King of Navarre, 1561. "Honour, glory, and riches shall be the reward of your pains; but above all, do not fail to rid the country of those scoundrels [Anabaptists and others], who stir up the people to revolt against us. Such monsters should be exterminated, as I have exterminated Michael Servetus the Spaniard."
        Strike two.

        I took a few minutes to look this quote up with very interesting results.

        "Marquis Paet" appears to also be known as Monseigneur Du Poet. An English rendering of Calvin's alleged letter can be found here. The letter is found in a collection of Calvin's letters. What's fascinating is that the compiler of this volume argues that this letter, along with another... is a forgery. The editor's preface to these letters states, "To quote these pretended letters of Calvin's to M. du Poet is to refute them!" It is interesting that the original copy of this 1561 letter "has for superscription to M. du Poet, grand chamberlain of Navarre and Governor of Montelimart, dignities with which he was invested only twenty years later, in 1584." I will be looking for further analysis of these allegedly forged letters. Interesting stuff.

        I find it interesting that Bigboy's citation includes the phrase, "[Anabaptists and others]." This is not something found in Calvin's letter, but appears to be a popular addition found on the Internet and also a 2008 book.
        Last edited by James Swan; 08-20-17, 02:06 AM.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by James Swan View Post

          Strike two.

          I took a few minutes to look this quote up with very interesting results.

          "Marquis Paet" appears to also be known as Monseigneur Du Poet. An English rendering of Calvin's alleged letter can be found here. The letter is found in a collection of Calvin's letters. What's fascinating is that the compiler of this volume argues that this letter, along with another... is a forgery. The editor's preface to these letters states, "To quote these pretended letters of Calvin's to M. du Poet is to refute them!" It is interesting that the original copy of this 1561 letter "has for superscription to M. du Poet, grand chamberlain of Navarre and Governor of Montelimart, dignities with which he was invested only twenty years later, in 1584." I will be looking for further analysis of these allegedly forged letters. Interesting stuff.

          I find it interesting that Bigboy's citation includes the phrase, "[Anabaptists and others]." This is not something found in Calvin's letter, but appears to be a popular addition found on the Internet and also a 2008 book.
          James I Don't believe you, both quotes are found in numerous places especially the quote about Servetus.

          And , you never have stated why the quote on page 285 is incorrect.

          It's pretty easy for you to poo-poo quotes with nothing but your say so.

          I will look back in a book Calvin wrote that I have , he says plenty about the anabaptists.

          Let's not forget what demon possessed murders Calvin and Luther were.
          No conviction,No conversion
          John 16:8
          And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

          Comment


          • Originally posted by James Swan View Post

            Strike two.

            I took a few minutes to look this quote up with very interesting results.

            "Marquis Paet" appears to also be known as Monseigneur Du Poet. An English rendering of Calvin's alleged letter can be found here. The letter is found in a collection of Calvin's letters. What's fascinating is that the compiler of this volume argues that this letter, along with another... is a forgery. The editor's preface to these letters states, "To quote these pretended letters of Calvin's to M. du Poet is to refute them!" It is interesting that the original copy of this 1561 letter "has for superscription to M. du Poet, grand chamberlain of Navarre and Governor of Montelimart, dignities with which he was invested only twenty years later, in 1584." I will be looking for further analysis of these allegedly forged letters. Interesting stuff.

            I find it interesting that Bigboy's citation includes the phrase, "[Anabaptists and others]." This is not something found in Calvin's letter, but appears to be a popular addition found on the Internet and also a 2008 book.
            Poo-Poo this , James :

            Calvin to Guillaume Farel, 13 February1547

            Servetus has recently written to me and has included with his letter a large volume of his wild imaginings, adding with a boastful gesture that I should find some of the contents amazing [stupenda]and never heard of before. If it is agreeable to me, he takes it upon himself to come here. But I am unwilling to guarantee his safety, for if he does come and my authority counts for anything, I will never let him get away alive.

            CR • col. 283



            No conviction,No conversion
            John 16:8
            And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Bigboy View Post
              James I Don't believe you, both quotes are found in numerous places especially the quote about Servetus.
              In my last post, I linked to the forged letter, and you can also find documentation in that source as to why the letter is a suspected forgery.

              Originally posted by Bigboy View Post
              And , you never have stated why the quote on page 285 is incorrect.
              You originally provided the quote, so the burden falls on you to produce the context. In my earlier post I provided information as to how to find my comments about the bogus Luther quote you posted (I try to avoid linking to my own materials here when possible). In fact, since you seem fairly capable of cut-and-paste, I actually have posted the paragraph your bogus quote come from on my blog.

              Originally posted by Bigboy View Post
              It's pretty easy for you to poo-poo quotes with nothing but your say so.
              If you really are unable to do a basic Google search for this:

              Luther on Calvin in Geneva: "With a death sentence they solve all argumentation"

              I will cut-and-paste my own words for you.

              Originally posted by Bigboy View Post
              I will look back in a book Calvin wrote that I have , he says plenty about the anabaptists. Let's not forget what demon possessed murders Calvin and Luther were.
              Well, So what?

              If it makes you feel better by demonstrating 16th century men were... 16th century men, then, by all means, read your books. You may interact with people here on CARM with people that want to exonerate Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, the German peasants, anabaptists, or whomever from the 16th Century... but when interacting with me, I think the truth of the matter was that the majority of those people back then had no problem with heresy being punishable by execution.
              Last edited by James Swan; 08-20-17, 11:43 AM.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Bigboy View Post
                [*]Martin Luther said of Calvin's actions in Geneva, "With a death sentence they solve all argumentation" (Juergan L. Neve, A History of Christian Thought, vol. I, p. 285).
                And here we have another FALSE quote by you. You find a "nasty" quote posted anonymously on the Internet, and since it bashes Calvin, you simply ASSUME it is true, right?

                1) First of all, as James Swan pointed out, you got the citation wrong, indicating you obviously don't even have the primary source, and you didn't bother to check the accuracy for yourself. The book was written by "Juergen" Neve, not "Juergan". And no, I'm not going to believe it is simply a typo by you, since it is the EXACT same error found wherever the quote is found on the Internet.

                2) Luther NEVER attributed the phrase in your quote with Calvin, and if you had actually READ "Juergen L. Neve", you would have KNOWN that. This is what Neve wrote:

                "Calvin's mistake was his refusal to recognize the freedom of conscience. In his dealing with teachers of false doctrine within the Church, Christ speaks of excommunication after previous brotherly admonition; but neither He nor the apostles have commanded that they are to be put to death. Calvin's practice was a return to medieval methods which Luther had characterized ironically with the remark: "With a death sentence they solve all argumentation" (Mit dem Tode losenn sie alle Argumente)."
                It was Neve's comparison (not Luther's) to attribute Luther's quote to the "a return to medieval methods". So it wasn't even a direct comparison to Calvin. And it WASN'T a comparison that "Luther" made.

                3) The way your quote is formed tries to make it a "double whammy", by trying to put down both Calvin and Luther together as hateful murderers. But if one has read ANYTHING of Luther, they would know two things, namely (1) that Luther was VERY fond of hyperbole, especially when making comments "off the cuff" such as his "Table Talk" records, and (2) that he was AGAINST execution of heretics.

                Neve CONTINUES immediately following your alleged "quote" with the following words:
                Luther admitted that there might be cases where in the interest of tranquility troublesome persons may be banished from the country. But he was opposed to bodily punishment for heresy. [61] These were his words: "Heresy can never be restrained with force. It must be grasped in another way. This is not the sort of battle that can be settled with thee sword. The weapon here to be used is God's Word. If that does not decide, the decision will not be effected by worldly force, though it should drench the whole world with blood. Heresy is a thing of the soul; no steel can cut it out, no waters can drown it.
                [61] Luther wrote to Brenz, 1529: Man soll keine falschen Lehrer toeten; es ist genug, dass man sie verweise. We must not kill false teachers; it is enough to send them out of the country. Enders, Luther's Correspondence, 7, 211.
                4) The quote Neve quotes of Luther, "With a death sentence they solve all argumentation", is apparently from a source which has not been translated into English yet. But it can be found in the German:

                Ich halt, dass Ketzer vorbrennen daher kumm, dass sie furchten, sie kunnten sie mit Schriften nit ubirwinden; gleichwie die Papisten zu Rom, wenn sie nit mugen der Wahrheit widerstahn, wurgen sie die Leut, und mit dem Tod solviren sie alle Argument. Ein solcher Vorfechter der Wahrheit wäre mein Doctor Eck auch gerne.
                And we see that the "they" who solve all argumentation with death sentences are the Roman Catholics, including specific mention of Johann Eck. You might be aware that the papal Edict of Worms allowed for anyone to kill Luther "without legal consequence".







                But hey, it's a lot easier to simply do a 2 second Google search and find a quote that you like, without letting those pesky "facts" get in the way, huh?
                "We are not to understand the other side; we are to discuss to expound the truth." -- A misguided apologist
                --------------------------------------------------------------------------
                "The Law is a storm which wrecks your hopes of self-salvation,
                but washes you upon the Rock of Ages."
                -- Charles Haddon Spurgeon

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Theo1689 View Post






                  But hey, it's a lot easier to simply do a 2 second Google search and find a quote that you like, without letting those pesky "facts" get in the way, huh?
                  It would be interesting to look into the closets of some of Bigboys religious hero's of ages past and talk about their skeletons.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by CrowCross View Post

                    It would be interesting to look into the closets of some of Bigboys religious hero's of ages past and talk about their skeletons.
                    Look up John of Leiden or the Münster Rebellion... Anabaptism unleashed during the reformation period.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by CrowCross View Post

                      It would be interesting to look into the closets of some of Bigboys religious hero's of ages past and talk about their skeletons.
                      Hey... When critics hitch their wagon to anti-Trinitarian pagans like Servetus, doesn't that speak volumes?
                      "We are not to understand the other side; we are to discuss to expound the truth." -- A misguided apologist
                      --------------------------------------------------------------------------
                      "The Law is a storm which wrecks your hopes of self-salvation,
                      but washes you upon the Rock of Ages."
                      -- Charles Haddon Spurgeon

                      Comment


                      • James Swan;n4745533]

                        In my last post, I linked to the forged letter, and you can also find documentation in that source as to why the letter is a suspected forgery.
                        The key word is "suspected" two sides to the story.


                        You originally provided the quote, so the burden falls on you to produce the context.
                        I did and told where it came from.


                        In my earlier post I provided information as to how to find my comments about the bogus Luther quote you posted (I try to avoid linking to my own materials here when possible). In fact, since you seem fairly capable of cut-and-paste, I actually have posted the paragraph your bogus quote come from on my blog
                        .

                        James your pro Luther blog and your pro Luther comments don't mean Squat to me.


                        Well, So what?
                        That's the attitude of all the defenders of the reformation demonic murders like Calvin and Luther

                        If it makes you feel better by demonstrating 16th century men were... 16th century men, then, by all means, read your books. You may interact with people here on CARM with people that want to exonerate Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, the German peasants, anabaptists, or whomever from the 16th Century... but when interacting with me, I think the truth of the matter was that the majority of those people back then had no problem with heresy being punishable by execution.
                        Well , that attitude reminds me of the saying Boys will be Boys.

                        Its amazing people like you and Theo will make excuses for those demonic murders.

                        No conviction,No conversion
                        John 16:8
                        And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Bigboy View Post
                          The key word is "suspected" two sides to the story.
                          There are valid reasons for questioning the validity of your "quote".
                          Why do you refuse to address them?

                          I did and told where it came from.
                          Sorry, no.
                          Simply saying, "This is the personal blog site I got this single sentence quote from" is NOT providing "context".

                          "Context" requires going to the ORIGINAL source, and providing a good bit of text before and after your "quote".

                          James your pro Luther blog and your pro Luther comments don't mean Squat to me.
                          <Chuckle>

                          So only "anti-Luther" people are allowed to have valid opinions?
                          I guess that "guarantees" that you'll never lose an argument, regardless of whether you're right or wrong...

                          But it's not terribly productive, IMO...

                          That's the attitude of all the defenders of the reformation demonic murders like Calvin and Luther
                          One of the reasons that productive discussion is impossible with you is because of your use of over-the-top rhetoric.

                          Simply throwing around the term "demonic" is worthless rhetoric.
                          Calling the executions "murder" is worthless rhetoric, and simply begs the question.
                          If you want to argue that the EXECUTIONS were "unBiblical", that would be one thing.

                          And I don't remember either Calvin or Luther being "murdered", so your grammar might need some work...

                          Its amazing people like you and Theo will make excuses for those demonic murders.
                          <Chuckle>

                          And now we have "brainwashing", as you mindless repeat your little mantra...
                          "We are not to understand the other side; we are to discuss to expound the truth." -- A misguided apologist
                          --------------------------------------------------------------------------
                          "The Law is a storm which wrecks your hopes of self-salvation,
                          but washes you upon the Rock of Ages."
                          -- Charles Haddon Spurgeon

                          Comment


                          • [
                            Theo1689;n4745816]

                            And here we have another FALSE quote by you. You find a "nasty" quote posted anonymously on the Internet, and since it bashes Calvin, you simply ASSUME it is true, right?
                            No , there are many who say it's true.




                            1) First of all, as James Swan pointed out, you got the citation wrong, indicating you obviously don't even have the primary source, and you didn't bother to check the accuracy for yourself. The book was written by "Juergen" Neve, not "Juergan". And no, I'm not going to believe it is simply a typo by you, since it is the EXACT same error found wherever the quote is found on the Internet
                            .

                            James the Luther defender.

                            <chuckle>

                            Now concerning typos If I'm not mistaken You made a typo recently, and got huffy when it was pointed out.
                            Double standards ?





                            2) Luther NEVER attributed the phrase in your quote with Calvin, and if you had actually READ "Juergen L. Neve", you would have KNOWN that. This is what Neve wrote:
                            [indent]
                            [COLOR=#0000FF]"Calvin's mistake was his refusal to recognize the freedom of conscience. In his dealing with teachers of false doctrine within the Church, Christ speaks of excommunication after previous brotherly admonition; but neither He nor the apostles have commanded that they are to be put to death. Calvin's practice was a return to medieval methods which Luther had characterized ironically with the remark: "With a death sentence they solve all argumentation" (Mit dem Tode losenn sie alle Argumente)."[/COLOR
                            ]


                            And just what do you think Medieval methods consist of.




                            3) The way your quote is formed tries to make it a "double whammy", by trying to put down both Calvin and Luther together as hateful murderers. But if one has read ANYTHING of Luther, they would know two things, namely (1) that Luther was VERY fond of hyperbole, especially when making comments "off the cuff" such as his "Table Talk" records, and (2) that he was AGAINST execution of heretics
                            HYPERBOLE ?

                            <Chuckle>

                            Here is some of Luthers hyperbole :



                            INTOLERANCE OF OTHER CHRISTIANS

                            "That seditious articles of doctrine should be punished by the sword needed no further proof. For the rest, the Anabaptists hold tenets relating to infant baptism, original sin, and inspiration, which have no connection with the Word of God, and are indeed opposed to it. ... Secular authorities are also bound to restrain and punish avowedly false doctrine ... For think what disaster would ensue if children were not baptized? ... Besides this the Anabaptists separate themselves from the churches ... and they set up a ministry and congregation of their own, which is also contrary to the command of God. From all this it becomes clear that the secular authorities are bound ... to inflict corporal punishment on the offenders ... Also when it is a case of only upholding some spiritual tenet, such as infant baptism, original sin, and unnecessary separation, then ... we conclude that ... the stubborn sectaries must be put to death."

                            Source: Dave Armstrong. "Pamphlet of 1536" in Martin Luther and The Protestant Inquisition
                            (Janssen, X, 222-223; pamphlet of 1536)

                            "If I had all the Franciscan friars in one house, I would set fire to it. ... To the fire with them!"

                            Source: Dave Armstrong. Martin Luther and The Protestant Inquisition
                            (Grisar, VI, 247; Table Talk [edited by Mathesius], 180; summer 1540)

                            "It is a duty to suppress the Pope by force."

                            Source: Dave Armstrong, Martin Luther and The Protestant Inquisition
                            (Grisar, VI, 245; EN, IV, 298)

                            "There are others who teach in opposition to some recognised article of faith which is manifestly grounded on Scripture and is believed by good Christians all over the world, such as are taught to children in the Creed. ... Heretics of this sort must not be tolerated, but punished as open blasphemers. ... If anyone wishes to preach or to teach, let him make known the call or the command which impels him to do so, or else let him keep silence. If he will not keep quiet, then let the civil authorities command the scoundrel to his rightful master, namely, Master Hans [i.e., the hangman]."

                            Source: Martin Luther, Commentary on 82nd Psalm, 1530
                            (Janssen, X, 222; EA, Bd. 39, 250-258; Commentary on 82nd Psalm, 1530; cf. Durant, 423, Grisar, VI, 26-27)

                            "Heresiarchs ... remain obdurate in their own conceit. They allow none to find fault with them and brook no opposition. This is the sin against the Holy Ghost for which there is no forgiveness."

                            Source: Dave Armstrong, Martin Luther and The Protestant Inquisition
                            (Grisar, VI, 282; WA, vol. 19, 609 ff.)

                            "I am on the heels of the Sacramentaries and the Anabaptists; ... I shall challenge them to fight; and I shall trample them all underfoot."

                            Source: Dave Armstrong, Martin Luther and The Protestant Inquisition
                            (Daniel-Rops, 86)







                            Neve CONTINUES immediately following your alleged "quote" with the following words:[INDENT]Luther admitted that there might be cases where in the interest of tranquility troublesome persons may be banished from the country. But he was opposed to bodily punishment for heresy. [61] These were his words: "[COLOR=#FF0000][B]Heresy can never be restrained with force.
                            His Actions speak louder than his words, he was responsible for the death of untold thousands.

                            Here re is what he thought of Jews :

                            Luther exhibited the same vicious hatred and jealousy of the Jews, as later characterized the rule of Adolph Hitler. In early pamphlets, he called upon Christians to take the Bible from Jews, to burn their books and synagogues with pitch and brimstone, and to forbid their worship under penalty of death. He described Jews as young devils doomed to hell who should be driven out of the country. And, in his final sermon before he died, Luther once more called down the vengeance of heaven upon the Jews.





                            And we see that the "they" who solve all argumentation with death sentences are the Roman Catholics, including specific mention of Johann Eck. You might be aware that the papal Edict of Worms allowed for anyone to kill Luther "without legal consequence".
                            Yes the Catholics wanted him dead, and he wanted everyone who disagreed with him dead.







                            But hey, it's a lot easier to simply do a 2 second Google search and find a quote that you like, without letting those pesky "facts" get in the way, huh?]
                            If You call the comments of Swan the Luther defender facts well, <chuckle> .

                            No conviction,No conversion
                            John 16:8
                            And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Bigboy View Post
                              [

                              No , there are many who say it's true.
                              And there are probably many more who say that the Earth is flat.
                              So does that make "the Earth is flat" true?

                              Here's a thought...
                              Maybe "truth" ISN'T determined by "majority opinion".

                              Here is some of Luthers hyperbole :
                              No, here are some unsubstantiated "quotes" you got from others who hate Luther.

                              Source: [URL="http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2007/03/protestant-inquisition-reformation.html"]Dave Armstrong. "Pamphlet of 1536" in Martin Luther and The Protestant Inquisition
                              (Janssen, X, 222-223; pamphlet of 1536)

                              Source: [URL="http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2007/03/protestant-inquisition-reformation.html"]Dave Armstrong. Martin Luther and The Protestant Inquisition
                              (Grisar, VI, 247; Table Talk [edited by Mathesius], 180; summer 1540)


                              Source: [URL="http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2007/03/protestant-inquisition-reformation.html"]Dave Armstrong, Martin Luther and The Protestant Inquisition
                              (Grisar, VI, 245; EN, IV, 298)

                              Source: Martin Luther, Commentary on 82nd Psalm, 1530
                              (Janssen, X, 222; EA, Bd. 39, 250-258; Commentary on 82nd Psalm, 1530; cf. Durant, 423, Grisar, VI, 26-27)

                              Source: [URL="http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2007/03/protestant-inquisition-reformation.html"]Dave Armstrong, Martin Luther and The Protestant Inquisition
                              (Grisar, VI, 282; WA, vol. 19, 609 ff.)

                              Source: [URL="http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2007/03/protestant-inquisition-reformation.html"]Dave Armstrong, Martin Luther and The Protestant Inquisition
                              (Daniel-Rops, 86)
                              I see you're highly dependent on Dave Armstrong for your "quotes".

                              Not only does this demonstrate that you're not willing to do any work yourself, and that your'e not interested in an honest, unbiased view ("hey, let's just do a Google search for quotes that support my opinion!"), it also demonstrates you haven't checked ANY of the primary sources for accuracy.


                              Sorry, but I know too much about the Catholic Dave Armstrong to trust ANYTHING he had to say about Luther or Calvinism.
                              That would be like going to Porky Pig to learn about astrophysics.
                              "We are not to understand the other side; we are to discuss to expound the truth." -- A misguided apologist
                              --------------------------------------------------------------------------
                              "The Law is a storm which wrecks your hopes of self-salvation,
                              but washes you upon the Rock of Ages."
                              -- Charles Haddon Spurgeon

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by SethProton View Post

                                You are right to a certain extent, but two things to keep in mind.
                                1. When the Bible, especially the New testament, addresses false teachers over 90% of what is said is about their sinful lifestyle.
                                2. If a person holds to an unbiblical idea like they should be able to kill someone they think is a heretic, it is an indication that their thinking is wrong and unbiblical, and it should make other things they say about the Bible suspect.

                                So while it may appear to be a logical fallacy, the Bible says the two are tied together: behavior and teaching.
                                1. Sure, but those false teachers are in violation of the teachings of the Apostles. Unless you have the authority of the Apostles I doubt you could say the same about Calvin.

                                2. I would argue that Christ's example is one of non-violence. If you support the US military or even the American Revolution I could challenge you with being someone who hold unbiblical views. Do you have a defense for that?

                                Wesleyan-Holiness, Church of the Nazarene

                                It is time the Church Jesus Christ overcame the disjunctions created by the 16th-century Reformation... ++William Greathouse

                                Comment

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