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Concerning salvation...

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  • Originally posted by Bigboy View Post

    Not when I post the very words of lufer or history.
    Um, I have a question...


    When have you EVER posted any accurate assertions regarding "history"?

    When have you EVER posted "the very words of [Luther]" when you actually KNEW the context?


    Never, that's when.
    "We are not to understand the other side; we are to discuss to expound the truth." -- A misguided apologist
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "The Law is a storm which wrecks your hopes of self-salvation,
    but washes you upon the Rock of Ages."
    -- Charles Haddon Spurgeon

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Bigboy View Post

      His actions and history say murderer.
      Please QUOTE where "history say murderer".


      Still waiting...

      Of course, you will continue to waste time by claiming I'm "denying" history.
      But you haven't even POSTED any "history" for me to "deny".
      "We are not to understand the other side; we are to discuss to expound the truth." -- A misguided apologist
      --------------------------------------------------------------------------
      "The Law is a storm which wrecks your hopes of self-salvation,
      but washes you upon the Rock of Ages."
      -- Charles Haddon Spurgeon

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Theo1689 View Post

        Please QUOTE where "history say murderer".


        Still waiting...

        Of course, you will continue to waste time by claiming I'm "denying" history.
        But you haven't even POSTED any "history" for me to "deny".
        You won't accept wufers words or history unless swan approves of them, and we know that won't happen.
        No conviction,No conversion
        John 16:8
        And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Bigboy View Post

          You won't accept wufers words or history unless swan approves of them, and we know that won't happen.
          <chuckle>

          Another lame copout for refusing to actually DOCUMENT "historical facts", all the while (ERRANTLY) claiming I'm "denying" things you DON'T PROVIDE in the first place.

          Do you really have nothing of substance to occupy your life?
          "We are not to understand the other side; we are to discuss to expound the truth." -- A misguided apologist
          --------------------------------------------------------------------------
          "The Law is a storm which wrecks your hopes of self-salvation,
          but washes you upon the Rock of Ages."
          -- Charles Haddon Spurgeon

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Bigboy View Post
            You won't accept wufers words or history unless swan approves of them, and we know that won't happen.
            Sure, insulting and mocking...yes, this is fine "Christian" discussion. Well done.
            Last edited by James Swan; 09-13-17, 12:19 AM. Reason: Ipad typo

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Bigboy View Post

              You won't accept wufers words or history unless swan approves of them, and we know that won't happen.
              You keep making that false claim.
              I respect James, as he has done FAR more study on the life of Martin Luther (that's how you spell his name, btw), than either you or I have.

              But I don't take my opinion based on him, and I have no problem disagreeing with James if I think he's wrong.
              But James comes from a position of informed study, while you appear to come from a position of bias and emotionalism.

              All I ask you for is to provide EVIDENCE of "history" supporting your view.
              You apparently are unable to do so, and simply respond with insult and ad hominem.
              "We are not to understand the other side; we are to discuss to expound the truth." -- A misguided apologist
              --------------------------------------------------------------------------
              "The Law is a storm which wrecks your hopes of self-salvation,
              but washes you upon the Rock of Ages."
              -- Charles Haddon Spurgeon

              Comment


              • Originally posted by marke View Post

                I did not mean to suggest he actually killed Jews. He advocated killing Jews. That tells me he had ungodly hatred in his heart which the Lord Jesus equated with murder.
                Well, first of all, I would love for you to provide EVIDENCE of that, instead of simply "claiming" it over and over.

                Secondly, if what you say is true (and you haven't demonstrated that it is, yet), then all that proves is that Luther was a sinner, just like you and I and everyone else are sinners. Big deal. We already knew that. What else have you got? In case you weren't aware, Jesus came into the world to SAVE sinners.
                "We are not to understand the other side; we are to discuss to expound the truth." -- A misguided apologist
                --------------------------------------------------------------------------
                "The Law is a storm which wrecks your hopes of self-salvation,
                but washes you upon the Rock of Ages."
                -- Charles Haddon Spurgeon

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Theo1689 View Post

                  Well, first of all, I would love for you to provide EVIDENCE of that, instead of simply "claiming" it over and over.

                  Secondly, if what you say is true (and you haven't demonstrated that it is, yet), then all that proves is that Luther was a sinner, just like you and I and everyone else are sinners. Big deal. We already knew that. What else have you got? In case you weren't aware, Jesus came into the world to SAVE sinners.
                  Jesus did come into the world to save sinners. He did not come into the world to save people who thought they were born saved.
                  I am not a NPB-Onlyist (No Perfect Bible Onlyist), nor a NA/UBS-Onlyist. Marke

                  If this book be not infallible, where shall we find infallibility? We have given up the Pope, for he has blundered often and terribly; but we shall not set up instead of him a horde of little popelings fresh from college. C. H. Spurgeon

                  For that Revised Version I have but little care as a general rule, holding it to be by no means an improvement upon our common Authorized Version. C.H. Spurgeon

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by marke View Post

                    Jesus did come into the world to save sinners. He did not come into the world to save people who thought they were born saved.
                    Well,that's highly irrelevant.

                    I don't know anyone who believes that "they were born saved".
                    Certainly Calvinists don't believe that (and please don't try to erroneously claim we do).
                    And I'm not aware that Luther believed that either.

                    So in future, it would be nice if you would stop derailing discussions with irrelevant straw-men.

                    Thank you.
                    "We are not to understand the other side; we are to discuss to expound the truth." -- A misguided apologist
                    --------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    "The Law is a storm which wrecks your hopes of self-salvation,
                    but washes you upon the Rock of Ages."
                    -- Charles Haddon Spurgeon

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by CrowCross View Post
                      Concerning salvation...you're dead in your sins and trespases. Dead. Not alive in your sins or trespasses. Not sick in your sins or trespasses..but dead. Eph 2:1

                      In fact if God didn't give you the ability to come to Chtist, you can't come to Christ. John 6:65.

                      Free-will? God chooses you. You don't choose God. John 15:16 Just as Christ chooses the apostles, Christ has choosen the believers.

                      To some it may feel free...as if it feels as if we choose Christ...but prior to that believers are regenerated, born again, made a new creation 2 Cor 5:17...so that the choice of one who is a believers is entirely free, yet, did not arise from any character, action, motive, mind set, or condition in the sinner prior to being made a believer.

                      We don't accept Christ but rather receive Christ....not of our works, nor earned or figured out by us.
                      Some may say, yes, not earned or worked for.....and quote scripture...but I figured it out. The question is, why, how did you figure it out while others didn't and will spend eternity in hell seperated from God?
                      Christ said He knew who believed from the beginning. Did He choose believers to be His disciples and that they would carry on the witness to Him after the cross and when He returned to Heaven? So how many people among the Jews believed that a Messiah was coming before Christ appeared? Did they not have the prophets and then present day John the Baptist to prepare them for the coming of Christ? How many of John the Baptist disciples followed Christ? So why wouldn't Christ choose them for salvation if they already believed God's promise of a coming King? If they believed God they were certainly were destined to believe the Son----otherwise God could have lost people that He prepared for Jesus coming. Christ said He wouldn't lose any.

                      Perhaps you don't know what it would have been like back then, not having the New Testament Scriptures to tell you about the cross and this man that was to look just like them---but claimed to be the Son of God.


                      Post New Testament we indeed have much more light from God to pass on from generation to generation------but back then they only had the OT that taught them to believe the One that made the promise from the beginning. How many of them were certain to believe the Messiah? (Perhaps you can find it in Romans 4 if you will study)

                      .

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Bigboy View Post
                        No Swan , you don't get it.
                        Just because you deny lufers own words words and history, doesn't change them one bit.
                        You cant defend your position without words like possibly, suspect, my opinion, possible forgery, hearsay, could have been written wrong. Etc etc.
                        Thats your defense for lufers own words and historical accounts.
                        1. If you quote me saying something, CARM rules insist you provide links to those quotes.

                        2. You reasoned like this previously, and all the phrases you attributed to me were something I did not say (you violated the ninth commandment).

                        3. It's your responsibility to show which posts and in what contexts I used the words or phrases:

                        possibly
                        suspect
                        my opinion
                        possible forgery
                        hearsay
                        Could have been written wrong.

                        There is a search engine for this thread (next to the page numbers). According to the search results:

                        -I have not used the word "possibly."

                        -I have not used the word "suspect" (I did use suspected one time: "In my last post, I linked to the forged letter, and you can also find documentation in that source as to why the letter is a suspected forgery"). Btw, the letter is a forgery, I've stated this before.

                        -I used "my opinion" in the following sentences. The first came as a result of the personal threats you made against me- "My opinions are so intolerable that a person needs to find me in-person and chastise me." The second was: "Then you borrowed an undocumented quote, which in my opinion, is passing off someone else's research as your own."

                        -I have not used the phrase "possible forgery."

                        -I used the word "hearsay" one time: ". I have no problem throwing Luther or Calvin under the bus, but at least they should be run over with facts, not hearsay." This was in regard to using the Table Talk. Go do some research, you'll see why that source should not be used as a primary source to establish historical fact.

                        -I have not used the phrase, "Could have been written wrong."

                        If the search engine worked correctly, let's total this up. Of the six words/phrases you've attributed to me, three of them I never used in this discussion. Of the other three, your charge is absurd.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by James Swan View Post

                          1. If you quote me saying something, CARM rules insist you provide links to those quotes.

                          2. You reasoned like this previously, and all the phrases you attributed to me were something I did not say (you violated the ninth commandment).

                          3. It's your responsibility to show which posts and in what contexts I used the words or phrases:

                          possibly
                          suspect
                          my opinion
                          possible forgery
                          hearsay
                          Could have been written wrong.

                          There is a search engine for this thread (next to the page numbers). According to the search results:

                          -I have not used the word "possibly."

                          -I have not used the word "suspect" (I did use suspected one time: "In my last post, I linked to the forged letter, and you can also find documentation in that source as to why the letter is a suspected forgery"). Btw, the letter is a forgery, I've stated this before.

                          -I used "my opinion" in the following sentences. The first came as a result of the personal threats you made against me- "My opinions are so intolerable that a person needs to find me in-person and chastise me." The second was: "Then you borrowed an undocumented quote, which in my opinion, is passing off someone else's research as your own."

                          -I have not used the phrase "possible forgery."

                          -I used the word "hearsay" one time: ". I have no problem throwing Luther or Calvin under the bus, but at least they should be run over with facts, not hearsay." This was in regard to using the Table Talk. Go do some research, you'll see why that source should not be used as a primary source to establish historical fact.

                          -I have not used the phrase, "Could have been written wrong."

                          If the search engine worked correctly, let's total this up. Of the six words/phrases you've attributed to me, three of them I never used in this discussion. Of the other three, your charge is absurd.
                          What hog wash you have continually used weasel words and your Opinion to deny everything.

                          Here this is something else you can deny :

                          Like the mules who will not move unless you perpetually whip them with rods, so the civil powers must drive the common people, whip, choke, hang, burn, behead and torture them, that they may learn to fear the powers that be." (El. ed. 15, 276, quoted by O'Hare, in 'The Facts About Luther, TAN Books, 1987, p. 235.)

                          No conviction,No conversion
                          John 16:8
                          And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Theo1689 View Post
                            Um, I have a question...When have you EVER posted any accurate assertions regarding "history"? When have you EVER posted "the very words of [Luther]" when you actually KNEW the context? Never, that's when.
                            I recently finished working through the quotes Big Boy posted here. In that same post Big boy stated:

                            Here re is what he thought of Jews :
                            Luther exhibited the same vicious hatred and jealousy of the Jews, as later characterized the rule of Adolph Hitler. In early pamphlets, he called upon Christians to take the Bible from Jews, to burn their books and synagogues with pitch and brimstone, and to forbid their worship under penalty of death. He described Jews as young devils doomed to hell who should be driven out of the country. And, in his final sermon before he died, Luther once more called down the vengeance of heaven upon the Jews.
                            Unless Big Boy is the author of this link and this link, the majority of this is (once again) plagiarized. The uncanny irony of this paragraph is that it was plagiarized from a cultist article from something written by (the late) Roderick C Meredith, "The Plain Truth about the Protestant Reformation" (1956). Note the similarities:

                            "In view of the subsequent history of Germany, it will be well to note that Luther's final sermon was a railing attack against the Jewish people. He seems to have been possessed with the same vicious hatred and jealousy of the Jews as later characterized the rule of Adolph Hitler."

                            And also:

                            "In his first pamphlet against them, he called upon Christians to take the Bible from them, to burn their books and synagogues with pitch and brimstone, and to forbid their worship under penalty of death; and in his second, entitled 'Of Shem Hamphoras,' he describes them at the very outset as 'young devils doomed to hell,' who should be driven out of the country" (Universal History, p. 271)."

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by James Swan View Post

                              I recently finished working through the quotes Big Boy posted here. In that same post Big boy stated:



                              Unless Big Boy is the author of this link and this link, the majority of this is (once again) plagiarized. The uncanny irony of this paragraph is that it was plagiarized from a cultist article from something written by (the late) Roderick C Meredith, "The Plain Truth about the Protestant Reformation" (1956). Note the similarities:

                              "In view of the subsequent history of Germany, it will be well to note that Luther's final sermon was a railing attack against the Jewish people. He seems to have been possessed with the same vicious hatred and jealousy of the Jews as later characterized the rule of Adolph Hitler."

                              And also:

                              "In his first pamphlet against them, he called upon Christians to take the Bible from them, to burn their books and synagogues with pitch and brimstone, and to forbid their worship under penalty of death; and in his second, entitled 'Of Shem Hamphoras,' he describes them at the very outset as 'young devils doomed to hell,' who should be driven out of the country" (Universal History, p. 271)."
                              thanks for the diligence and research with exposing the source !
                              His true identity as both Lord (κύριος used by the LXX to translate Yahweh) and God (θεός used by the LXX to translate Elohim)netbible John 20:28[In John's writings] Of the approximately 70 instances in which ουτος has a personal referent, as many as 44 of them (almost 2/3) refer to the Son. Of the remainder most imply some sort of positive connection with the Son.What is most significant is that NEVER is the Father the referent. 1 John 5:20, Wallace

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Bigboy View Post
                                What hog wash you have continually used weasel words and your Opinion to deny everything.
                                Do you go to a church? Are you under the authority of elders, or anyone? Do they know you go online and insult people?


                                Originally posted by Bigboy View Post
                                Here this is something else you can deny :

                                Like the mules who will not move unless you perpetually whip them with rods, so the civil powers must drive the common people, whip, choke, hang, burn, behead and torture them, that they may learn to fear the powers that be." (El. ed. 15, 276, quoted by O'Hare, in 'The Facts About Luther, TAN Books, 1987, p. 235.)
                                There's nothing to deny in this quote... if you read it in context.

                                1. You actually provided some accurate references from wherever you plagiarized this quote from. The quote is from a Roman Catholic priest, Father Patrick O'Hare (here is the page being cited from an earlier edition). His book is not taken seriously as a historical source, but many of Rome's defenders... those who think that Luther was evil (unlike the current Pope)... love this book. So, enjoy holding hands with Rome.

                                2. Here is "El. ed. 15, 276" so you can read it for yourself. I suspect you can't read it, so let me plagiarize my own words for you: Luther was expounding upon the keeping of the law as stated in Luke 2:22-24. From this he launched in to a discussion on the burden of the law, and it's crushing condemnation of people before a holy God and the misery it brings upon people. Even those who keep some sort of outward appearance of keeping the law still haven't kept the law purely in their hearts. The law brings misery on mankind, because it condemns man of sin. Contrarily, Christ kept the law with a pure heart, even though he didn't need to. Luther states,

                                According to the outward mask we sure keep the law, put on a good show and grab hold of it with our fist. But of hearts shy away from it. We do it unwillingly. We have no desire to do by nature unless that Holy Ghost enlightens our heart with His grace. Therefore even if we keep the law with works, yet it is not done from pure and clean heart. For it is done for the sake of our own advantage reputation or out of fear of punishment.

                                Now since God has also given the law and He knows that no one keeps it, He is also the One who has made it a prison guard, driver and leash. For the Scripture designates this supervision [of the law] by comparing it to one who drives a stubborn mule, which one must always push and pull and drive with a stick or it will not move forward. So this supervision of the law must pummel you. It is always to drive, strike, throttle, hang, burn, behead, and torture you so that you fear. By this people are held in check. For God does not desire that the law merely be presented to the people, but rather that it also drive them, seize them with a fist and compel them to work. For only in this way are people preserved. If they are not forced then they will do nothing. That is because the heart cannot keep the law because it is completely against its nature.

                                So if there were no punishment in the world, there would be nothing in the world but the rule of death, adultery, thievery, robbery, manslaughter and every blasphemy. No one would be safe from one another. But when the supervision of the law is there and punishes gross scoundrels and blasphemers, the rabble must be contained by it. They will know they are not permitted to go forth so boldly and live their lives according to their own desires. So it is necessary that the driving of the law remains over people and those raging rebels. It always compels and drives as swine and wild animals are forced and driven.

                                So now if we must do the law and not like it, then we are an enemy of the law for it battles our lusts. But God has done all of this so that it makes us weary. By this we might learn to acknowledge our abilities, and what we are able to do. So we look at ourselves and say, "I, poor man, I must keep the law and I don't like to do it. Yes, I have absolutely no desire to do it. So then I must lose any reward and thanks that I would get for doing it, had I truly and gladly kept the law." In summary, all who are under the law do it unwillingly. So we are tortured by it, forced to keep it and yet earn no reward from it [Joel Baseley translator, The Festival Sermons of Martin Luther (Michigan: Mark V Publications, 2005), "A Second Sermon on the Festival of the Presentation of the Infant Christ at the Temple." p. 248-249].

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