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  • #16
    Originally posted by CrowCross View Post

    Arbitrarily???? Why that term?
    Arbitrarily means without outside influence; but if it bothers you:

    The question is to whom does he have mercy; and to whom does he grant to come to Jesus.
    Is it:
    a) To those who believed the scriptures.
    Or
    b)Those whom God predestined, without outside influence, before the foundation of the world, before they had done neither good or evil.
    1Peter 1:18,19 Redeemed ... with the precious blood of Christ

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by PeanutGallery View Post
      Arbitrarily means without outside influence; but if it bothers you:

      The question is to whom does he have mercy; and to whom does he grant to come to Jesus.
      Is it:
      a) To those who believed the scriptures.
      Or
      b)Those whom God predestined, without outside influence, before the foundation of the world, before they had done neither good or evil.
      Those who meet "b"...are given the ability to do "a"

      FYI....Arbitrarily points to random chance or a whim....God has a reason why He elected people and passed over the others. What is His reasons? Who knows...we do know it's not based upon anything we do.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by CrowCross View Post

        Those who meet "b"...are given the ability to do "a"
        For Calvinism, yeah; scripturally, a) those who believe scripture.

        John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.



        FYI....Arbitrarily points to random chance or a whim....
        Thus, without outside influence.


        God has a reason why He elected people and passed over the others. What is His reasons? Who knows...we do know it's not based upon anything we do.
        Philosophical reply; scripture tells us whom he has mercy on.

        Those who believe.

        John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
        John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
        1Peter 1:18,19 Redeemed ... with the precious blood of Christ

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by PeanutGallery View Post
          For Calvinism, yeah; scripturally, a) those who believe scripture.

          John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.




          Thus, without outside influence.



          Philosophical reply; scripture tells us whom he has mercy on.

          Those who believe.

          John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
          John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
          God works through scripture..preachers..teachers etc.

          God gives us the faith to believe..then when we hear the scripture, preachers, teachers etc....we acknowledge the truth of it.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by CrowCross View Post

            Here's your problem Sean....it's not that complicated.
            You can't come to Jesus unless the father grants it..and the Father has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy. That's what the bible says.

            I fully agree except for your omission. The people drawn and coming are those that had learned from God previously (see John 6:45)..No Jew learned from God before Christ came that didn't believe the OT Scriptures breathed by God. That wasn't the only Jews that came, because there were many that turned to God (repented) during Christ's work and any that did would also have followed Christ.

            Do you think Christ is talking to idol worshippers? Did no Jew learn from God when they believed the prophets (try Hebrews 1:1-2). What Jesus is saying is that the same people that believed God were going to believe Him. In your view it wasn't possible for a Jew to believe the OT Scriptures which foretold the coming of Christ. It wasn't possible for a person to believe John the Baptist who prepared people for Jesus coming. It wasn't possible for Mary and Joseph to believe God before they found out she would bear the Christ child and it wasn't possible for any Jew to believe God for the first 30 years of Christ's life.

            What did people learn from God before Christ came? And many Jews knew the Messiah was coming,. and many Jews believed as Abraham believed and waited for God's promise to be fulfilled. (study Romans 4)

            If you don't understand what Jesus says in John 5:33ff to end of chapter---how will you interpret John 6 correctly. Jesus accuses the Jews (those that reject
            Him) of not believing the Scriptures, hence they didn't believe God and were certainly not going to believe Him.

            Listen to the author of Hebrews (Hebrews 1L1-3 "God , after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in Son, whom He (God) appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world."

            To say that no Jew believed God before Christ came is ludicrous and not Scriptural. The OT Scriptures breathed by God were essential to prepare the Jew for the coming of the Messiah.
            Further we have the Jerusalem Council that points out that Moses is taught in all cities since ancient generations.

            What you teach undermines the meaning of the OT, it undermines the fact that it is God Who promised the Messiah, it undermines those who turned to God under John the Baptist and those that believed the Scriptures and the prophets.

            Do you think that the Jews in front of Jesus had the NT Scriptures???????. How did they learn from God???????

            You are right, it isn't that complicated when you understand the NT Scriptures were written to people that only had the OT and the events taking place in the Gospels is before the cross, and before the New Testament was even written.


            It is no wonder why people misunderstand the ministry of the disciples and Paul when they use the OT Scriptures to persuade people that Jesus is the One promised by God. .

            Not all Jews said that Christ did His work by Beelzebub.
            Last edited by Sean Stewart; 01-12-18, 06:10 PM.

            Comment


            • #21
              [QUOTE=CrowCross;n5015286]

              All kinds of people believe in God..or a God.

              The salvation belief is a belief in Christ John 3:16 style. God has to grant people the ability to come to Christ. To answer your question concerning Jesus Christ..I would say both. There is no set "formula" so to speak.




              You are right that a lot of people claim to believe God, Moslems, Deists, Theists, Unitarians, and even a lot of Jews.. How is that possible if they don't believe God made a promise to Adam and and don't believe the Scriptures?

              Since the Scriptures (breathed by God) witness to Christ, how is it that a person can claim to believe God, and reject the Son? Try I John 5:9-10

              Then there are people that claim to have faith in Christ and don't believe the OT prophets? and many don't believe the virgin birth, nor do they believe a literal resurrection.

              Of course their are false ""believers" all around us.

              Yes, there is no salvation without faith in the Son of God and what He did for us on the cross.
              Last edited by Sean Stewart; 01-12-18, 06:29 PM.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Sean Stewart View Post


                I fully agree except for your omission. The people drawn and coming are those that had learned from God previously (see John 6:45)..No Jew learned from God before Christ came that didn't believe the OT Scriptures breathed by God. That wasn't the only Jews that came, because there were many that turned to God (repented) during Christ's work and any that did would also have followed Christ.

                Do you think Christ is talking to idol worshippers? Did no Jew learn from God when they believed the prophets (try Hebrews 1:1-2). What Jesus is saying is that the same people that believed God were going to believe Him. In your view it wasn't possible for a Jew to believe the OT Scriptures which foretold the coming of Christ. It wasn't possible for a person to believe John the Baptist who prepared people for Jesus coming. It wasn't possible for Mary and Joseph to believe God before they found out she would bear the Christ child and it wasn't possible for any Jew to believe God for the first 30 years of Christ's life.

                What did people learn from God before Christ came? And many Jews knew the Messiah was coming,. and many Jews believed as Abraham believed and waited for God's promise to be fulfilled. (study Romans 4)

                If you don't understand what Jesus says in John 5:33ff to end of chapter---how will you interpret John 6 correctly. Jesus accuses the Jews (those that reject
                Him) of not believing the Scriptures, hence they didn't believe God and were certainly not going to believe Him.

                Listen to the author of Hebrews (Hebrews 1L1-3 "God , after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in Son, whom He (God) appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world."

                To say that no Jew believed God before Christ came is ludicrous and not Scriptural. The OT Scriptures breathed by God were essential to prepare the Jew for the coming of the Messiah.
                Further we have the Jerusalem Council that points out that Moses is taught in all cities since ancient generations.

                What you teach undermines the meaning of the OT, it undermines the fact that it is God Who promised the Messiah, it undermines those who turned to God under John the Baptist and those that believed the Scriptures and the prophets.

                Do you think that the Jews in front of Jesus had the NT Scriptures???????. How did they learn from God???????

                You are right, it isn't that complicated when you understand the NT Scriptures were written to people that only had the OT and the events taking place in the Gospels is before the cross, and before the New Testament was even written.


                It is no wonder why people misunderstand the ministry of the disciples and Paul when they use the OT Scriptures to persuade people that Jesus is the One promised by God. .

                Not all Jews said that Christ did His work by Beelzebub.
                It was never my opinion that..."To say that no Jew believed God before Christ came is ludicrous and not Scriptural." Many Jews understood. many Jews were waiting for the Messiah. Many Jews had what people call "head knowledge".

                I kinda see it this way...The Father in heaven has to reveal to you who Jesus is..much like God did for Simon Peter.

                Matt 16:13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”

                14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”

                15“ But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”

                16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

                17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Sean Stewart View Post


                  You are right that a lot of people claim to believe God, Moslems, Deists, Theists, Unitarians, and even a lot of Jews.. How is that possible if they don't believe God made a promise to Adam and and don't believe the Scriptures?
                  Many people believe in a little g...god.

                  Originally posted by Sean Stewart View Post
                  Since the Scriptures (breathed by God) witness to Christ, how is it that a person can claim to believe God, and reject the Son? Try I John 5:9-10

                  Then there are people that claim to have faith in Christ and don't believe the OT prophets? and many don't believe the virgin birth, nor do they believe a literal resurrection.

                  Of course their are false ""believers" all around us.

                  Yes, there is no salvation without faith in the Son of God and what He did for us on the cross.
                  Agreed.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Sean Stewart View Post
                    The Calvinist paints himself into a corner because they don't listen to Christ Who said "believe in God, believe also in Me." And they don't listen when Christ uses the Scriptures to verify Who He is (of course the OT Scriptures is God speaking through the authors).

                    Which Jews believed God and waited for the Messiah?

                    Of course God is willing to give anyone His gift of salvation-------but then those that refuse to believe God always reject Christ. But the world has a choice---believe God or disbelieve God. And the Scriptures say (therefore God says) there is no salvation without faith in the Son of God.

                    And in the OT those that refused to believe God---were the same people that rejected His promise and didn't look forward to the day of their salvation---when the cross would happen.

                    Since God became flesh and dwelt amongst us---which Jews were destined to believe in Christ? Was it not the "children of the promise"-- All Jews that had faith like Abraham in Romans 4.

                    Christ sends out the disciples to call the Jewish people to repentance (turn from the world to God) for the Kingdom of God is at hand. Not all Jews turned to God. And the Jewish religious authority thought they were already righteous by keeping the Law, though none of them could do it. They saw no need of a Savior and they had distorted the Scriptures adding their own laws to God's Word and showing no mercy to people. They basically refused to believe God could be merciful to those sinners that violated the Law. They overlooked that Abraham was reckoned as righteous for believing God and His promise----400 plus years before the Law was given. Abraham was even a sinner after he believed God so he often failed.


                    God prepared a people aforehand for the coming of Christ which is well documented in Scripture---and God knew them aforehand---destining them for saving faith in Christ. For if they were not destined for faith in Christ-----God's preparation would have been senseless and ineffective. (SEE Romans 3:1-3 and 9:6 where "word of God" refers to the Scriptures)

                    The "elect of God" (the people that choose to believe God) are destined for saving faith in Jesus. For all of the Scriptures (breathed by God) point to Christ as the only way of salvation. If God did not choose them to recognize Christ---would they have done so on their own? The elect of God cannot be fooled. And one group of Jews on the day of Pentecost said God has done great things, and the other group mocked. Which ones were added to the church? It is sad to think that Calvinists and most Arminians interpret that passage as if all these Jews who had the OT Scriptures never had believed God before Pentecost. Yet Peter uses the Scriptures to persuade them.

                    So Paul and the disciples all use the Scriptures to persuade people that Jesus is the Christ (see Peter's first sermon all the way through to Acts 28:22-24):.


                    But the men on Mars Hill and idol worshippers did not know the Scriptures and were ignorant of the ways of God------where does Paul start in his presenting the Gospel to them, as opposed to where Paul starts with the people in the synagogues? And Paul tells those on Mars Hill that God is so merciful He is willing to overlook their IGNORANCE and wants them to repent (turn to Him) because He has appointed a MAN.>>>>>>>

                    God knows which sinners will believe Him and which people won't----guess who is destined for saving faith in the Son of God.

                    Jews that rejected Christ did so because they did not pursue by faith----therefore stumbled over the Stone that God said He would lay in Zion.


                    We may try to go to a people that don't believe the One true God and try to convince them that Jesus is their salvation. Try to convince them that the Scriptures are God's words? If they don't believe God will they accept the Scriptures as God's words that give wisdom (from Whom) that lead to salvation through faith in Jesus? (2 Tim 3:15-17).

                    What Calvinists ignore, and most Arminians as well, is Christ's contention with the Jews and the religious leaders in John 5:33ff. In this passage Christ gives the Jews all the reasons they should believe Him---------because HE FULFILLED all that God said and foretold.

                    The sinner that doesn't turn to God---will they receive God's gift? I doubt it. For the Spirit of God is sent out to convict people of their sin because they haven't believed in Jesus----and secondly to witness to Jesus. Does the Spirit of God use the Scriptures?-----the fool has said in his heart there is no God and the Scriptures breathed by God say there is no salvation but by faith in Christ. Rejecting Christ is the same thing as rejecting all of Scriptures---all that God has said from the beginning----because Christ fulfills the Scripture.

                    The very fact that Christ uses the OT Scriptures indicates that believing God precedes believing Him. And what did God say in the OT? He would lay a Stone in Zion and those that put their faith in in Him would not be disappointed. And since many Jews did not believe the Scriptures (hence God) they stumbled over the Stone.

                    Of course there is one more thing---if God did not reveal Himself through the Scriptures no one would know what to believe, nonetheless Scriptures say God has revealed Himself to all men (even without the Scriptures) so that they are without excuse. But no where does it say that the Promise of God is revealed to all men (Psalms 24:12ff)
                    Show me a Calvinist thst denies men should,believe God.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      It was never my opinion that..."To say that no Jew believed God before Christ came is ludicrous and not Scriptural." Many Jews understood. many Jews were waiting for the Messiah. Many Jews had what people call "head knowledge".

                      I kinda see it this way...The Father in heaven has to reveal to you who Jesus is..much like God did for Simon Peter.

                      Matt 16:13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”

                      14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”

                      15“ But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”

                      16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

                      17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.


                      I see were making headway and you have an excellent response from Scripture. Be careful of the interpretation though because Calvinists such as Jonathan Edwards claim this is an example that people have no choice in the matter---God causes us to come to Christ. The difficulty in their interpretation is that Peter and his brother already believed God, having been followers of John the Baptist---and they were looking for the Messiah because John the Baptist who was a prophet of God prepared them...... Even John the Baptist did not recognize Christ on His own. ((See John ch 1).



                      So I have no trouble with Christ's words when He says My Father told you Who I am. In fact every Jew that believed God should have accepted their Messiah---because Christ claimed the Scriptures witnessed to Him. And Who breathed the Scriptures? Christ also said "the Father witnesses to Him". But a "witness" is only effective if a person believes the witness. But it is certain if one believes. Here is why Paul teaches "faith to faith" (Romans 1:16-17) pointing out in Romans 1:1-3 that God is the One that originally promised....and the Gospel is God's Gospel.

                      That God made certain that Peter recognized Christ is indeed God's Spirit at work. Is that important? Of course----the Jews that believed God were waiting for the Messiah that was prophecied about. Would God lose some of those people (all sinners) that turned to Him if God did not reveal Christ to them? Here is the basis of what I teach and it fits right in line with Romans. Hebrews 1:1-2; Hebrews 11:13; 2 Tm 3:16-17, knowing that God breathes the Scriptures.

                      And we know in Romans Paul is speaking about a faithful remnant of Jews (children of the promise) that were certain to come to faith in Christ. Children of the promise are the same people that had the faith of Abraham (see Romans 4)---they already believed God and had been prepared for the coming of the Messiah. Hence we can say along with Paul that "God is faithful through Whom we are called into fellowship with His Son.----------Faithful to who?

                      Do you know of any Christian that did not believe there is a God they are accountable too before they become a Christian? Of course God chooses who He will give mercy to, He is the only one that knows the heart. The Scripture regarding the "children of the promise" is replete with God preparing aforehand and knowing aforehand, and how did God prepare---but by the OT Scriptures. It is one reason why Paul uses the Scriptures (see Acts) to persuade people that Jesus is the expected Christ---and Paul does this with people in the synagogues---those taught the Scriptures beforehand. Good reason to examine the Scripture as the Bereans did.

                      To read about a woman on the beach praying to God who accepts Christ----sounds great---but if we had read about a woman on the beach praying to God in the OT we would have interpreted as here is a person that may believe God. And what about God fearers (Gentiles in the synagogue). Had they been taught from the Scriptures? Psalms 25:12ff).

                      One more thing, the men on Mars Hill------were they prepared for the Messiah." Where does Paul begin with them? IT isn't with Christ. Yet Paul says God is willing to overlook their ignorance (no Scripture knowledge and preparation here) and wanted them to repent---turn to God.

                      To Paul the decision is not whether we believe in Christ, it is whether we truly believe God and that we are sinners before Him in need of a Savior----Fearing God, God is gracious and merciful in providing a Savior for us. Yes God, all of God breathed Scriptures witness to Christ. Therefore, the same people that believe God will always believe in Christ (See Hebrews 1:1-2) and also I John 5:9-10; John 17:1-8).

                      We often forget that the people that Paul reached had no New Testament----they always started with God Who promised and preached Christ. There is no salvation without faith in Christ.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Show me a Calvinist thst denies men should,believe God.
                        If they knew that some Jews believed God and others didn't, that some Jews repented (turned to God) and others didn't. They would interpret some of the passages of Scripture differently than they do. Before the Cross and when Jesus first took the public stage were there Jews that believed God? This is what they ignore, and also they ignore that Jesus sent out the disciples to call people to repentence for the Kingdom of God was at hand----and Who is the King? Calvinists interpret the Gospels as if no Jew ever believed God until Christ came into the world. Not so (Hebrews 1:1-2). Christ was indeed going to create division---and those that didn't believe God would stumble over the Stone. But Christ says "Blessed are those that do not stumble over Me.

                        For example, Peter's confession of Christ when Christ said "My Father told you WHO I am. Famous Calvinist theologian (and Christian) Jonathan Edwards gives this as an example of causation and predestination---but he (Edwards) ignores the foreknowledge because he equates foreknowledge and causation. . What foreknowledge you ask? Peter was a Jew and a follower of John the Baptist along with his brother, and waiting for the Messiah John 1:39-41. Other persons that had already believed God before following Christ are found in John 1----not even John the Baptist recognized Christ on his own at that time.

                        Did not the Jewish leaders that didn't believe the Scriptures (which Christ accused them of) say that Christ did His work by Beelzebub? What does it mean when Christ tells the Jewish leaders they don't believe the Scriptures (Hebrews 1:1-2).

                        So does Christ save idol worshippers, or those that refuse to believe the One that promised the Son? Of course God alone knows the heart.

                        Further where does Paul begin with idol worshippers and those that have no prior information from God (Acts 17)? Why does Paul begin with God rather than Christ? No elect here----because no preparation from God to know about the Messiah. They were ignorant as Paul said yet in God's mercy He would overlook their ignorance and wanted them (idol worshippers) to turn to Him-----why didn't Paul say turn to Christ? If they don't believe God, how can they believe in Christ?

                        Try to reaching people for Christ that have no prior knowledge of God and Who He is----and where would you start? Does Scripture say Christ is revealed to everyone? Scripture does say God is revealed to everyone so that they are without excuse. And we know we need special revelation from God to know about the Son---He even remained a mystery in the OT, except for the Promise of God.

                        Hebrews 1:1-2, Hebrews 11:13 fights against what Calvinists teach as well as I John 5:9-10 and also 2 Tm 3:15-16, and all of the OT that taught "believing, and faith in God" like Abraham did. It is true God reveals the Son-----but to whom does God reveal? Did God reveal His promise to Adam and Eve before or after they answered God?
                        Last edited by Sean Stewart; 01-13-18, 01:03 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          FYI....Arbitrarily points to random chance or a whim....God has a reason why He elected people and passed over the others. What is His reasons? Who knows...we do know it's not based upon anything we do.

                          What makes you think we can't know the reason? God foreknows all things. Note---I did not say He causes all things---I do not equate foreknowledge with Causation because that would make God the author and perpetrator of sin. This is the dilemma of the Calvinist.

                          Rather God has revealed Himself to all men, so that they are without excuse. And the division starts between those that fear God and those that do not. Adam and Eve knew God existed and feared Him because of their sin, they answered God and then (and only then) did God tell them about His promise of the Messiah. He didn't tell them about the Messiah and then they turned to Him? Were they not already under the curse and death penalty when they answered God?

                          The problem in Scripture is that most people do not begin with God WHO PROMISED, they begin with "faith in Christ" the One God promised. And where did the OT Scriptures begin---with God, or the Son of Man? Try Hebrews 1:1-2.

                          God chose people before their birth in the OT for service? On what basis could God choose them for service even before they were born? Would it have been on the basis that God knew they would believe the Son of Man who hadn't even come yet? The cross was yet distant. The OT doesn't even say God chose them to believe in Him------however God knows all things and certainly would have known which person born would believe Him (God).

                          Further when we get to Romans God foreknows what people? Those He had prepared aforehand-----Jews that believed God and the prophets who spoke for God---and destined them for faith in Christ. God does choose us for salvation----every sinner that turns to God. However, God even calls us to the Son---does the person that refuses to believe God, come?

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