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Evanescent Grace

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  • Originally posted by David1701 View Post

    This is merely self-serving rhetoric.



    I said that we are not forced against our will. Since we do what we do willingly, then "forced" is an inappropriate word to use and we are responsible for what we do.
    1) It is not self-serving rhetoric, it is a logical inference that cannot be avoided and still remain honest. There must be a demonstration (other than the example of man's will, which is what is being disputed) of something that is both the thesis and antithesis at the same time, which is what is asserted by God being the determining choice and yet not culpable for that determination being as it is, and man, being so determined, and thus without any other recourse of action, being held guilty for that action he had no other choice of doing.

    2)To have no other option is to be constrained by means of limitation, which is, in effect, being forced, obligated, without choice, which begs the question of #1.


    Doug
    Dare to be Gracious

    Comment


    • Originally posted by David1701 View Post

      Our queen still has to sign off any new laws passed by parliament. Admittedly, this is just rubber stamping nowadays; but, if she did refuse, it would cause a constitutional crisis. In any case, the point that I was making was about being subject and this precluding simultaneous sovereignty, in the same area.

      God has NEVER told us that he has given man sovereignty over Him, in any area! Your claim of "sans his right to mitigate those choices" is completely without scriptural support. It is certainly not stated in Genesis 1-2 and your assumption that it is meant is merely self-serving eisegesis.



      You keep making things up! Where does the Bible say this? Hint: it doesn't.

      2 Sam. 1:24 (KJV) And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

      1 Chr. 21:1-3 (KJV)
      1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.
      2 And David said to Joab and to the rulers of the people, Go, number Israel from Beersheba even to Dan; and bring the number of them to me, that I may know it.
      3 And Joab answered, The LORD make his people an hundred times so many more as they be: but, my lord the king, are they not all my lord's servants? why then doth my lord require this thing? why will he be a cause of trespass to Israel?

      ---Numbering Israel was a sin. The Bible says that God "moved David" to commit this sin (using the devil's temptation as a proximate means), because he wanted to punish Israel. This is not the only example of this kind of thing.

      How does this tie in with your false teaching?



      This illustration would be fine, if God were limited to affecting what happens after man's decisions; but, as I have proved, this is not the case. God ensures that people make the decisions that He wants them to make.
      David,

      Can you not see that you are making a logical interpretation, based on previously (self-)determined assumptions of axiomatic points of reference, that Satan and God, being the principle protagonists of the two accounts, are working in a certain relationship that is not specifically stated within the texts themselves?

      This is an example of the difference between what the Bible "says", in a strictly linguistic fashion, and what the Bible writers "mean" by their words, the essence of wholistic truth behind the words proper. What the Bible "says" and what the Bible "means" are not necessarily the same thing.

      Now, I am not saying that your "interpretation" is necessarily wrong or right, but only that it is not, strictly speaking, what the Bible says, but only what you are saying that it probably, if not must, mean(s). The Bible "says" that both God and Satan were angry/stood up against Israel and moved/provoked David to do something; but what this necessarily means is an interpretive effort of the reader. The same thing applies to the direction of the streams of the King's thoughts; what it says literally, is not necessarily what it means to convey.


      Doug
      Dare to be Gracious

      Comment


      • Originally posted by David1701 View Post

        As I've said before, sanctification is not entirely monergistic. It is initial salvation and being kept saved that are monergistic.
        And thus begs the question why Salvation/coming to be born again is necessarily monergistic? Bruiser sees perseverance as synergistic, but you don't; why the difference? Because it is an interpretive thing, not an explicit scriptural statement of objective fact. I think that it should be a consistent thing across the board, not a half-and-half, hit and miss kind of thing. It is either one or the other, all God all the time, or some measure of both God and man-- not necessarily equal parts, but a necessity of both in order for the end effect to occur.

        Doug
        Dare to be Gracious

        Comment


        • Originally posted by TibiasDad View Post

          And thus begs the question why Salvation/coming to be born again is necessarily monergistic? Bruiser sees perseverance as synergistic, but you don't; why the difference? Because it is an interpretive thing, not an explicit scriptural statement of objective fact. I think that it should be a consistent thing across the board, not a half-and-half, hit and miss kind of thing. It is either one or the other, all God all the time, or some measure of both God and man-- not necessarily equal parts, but a necessity of both in order for the end effect to occur.

          Doug
          Salvation is only to man temporal until the Judgement. He is saved from bondage to sin and death tied to sin.

          The rest of what you posted seems right. Both the Will of God and man's will effects his salvation temporally and endgame. How this comes together we do not know, being the formed things, not
          the Former.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by bruisermiller View Post

            Neither is the Perseverance of the Saints; but there is a rule. God works in us to Will and do his good pleasure. and if it is by Works, Grace is no longer Grace. Grace can ONLY be Monergistic...
            Yes, I agree with this completely. The Preservation of the Saints is monergistic, resulting in a synergistic (but certain) Perseverance of the Saints.
            John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by David1701 View Post

              Yes, I agree with this completely. The Preservation of the Saints is monergistic, resulting in a synergistic (but certain) Perseverance of the Saints.
              And; since Grace can only be Monergistic, Prevenient Grace is Monergism...
              Isaiah 53:10-11 NKJV 'When You make His soul an offering for sin, God shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied.'

              Providence ~ The red headed Stepchild of Contemporary Theologians...
              New-Protestant Reformation Dec 2009

              Comment


              • Originally posted by bruisermiller View Post

                And; since Grace can only be Monergistic, Prevenient Grace is Monergism...
                Ah, no ...

                Arminian Prevenient Grace is monergistic; but it is not Monergism, which states that salvation is entirely of the Lord and that nothing in man is the determining factor, as to who is saved and who is not.
                John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by David1701 View Post

                  Ah, no ...

                  Arminian Prevenient Grace is monergistic; but it is not Monergism, which states that salvation is entirely of the Lord and that nothing in man is the determining factor, as to who is saved and who is not.
                  Thanks, that's what I meant. All that can be said is Grace is Monergistic/Monergism...
                  Isaiah 53:10-11 NKJV 'When You make His soul an offering for sin, God shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied.'

                  Providence ~ The red headed Stepchild of Contemporary Theologians...
                  New-Protestant Reformation Dec 2009

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by David1701 View Post

                    Yes, I agree with this completely. The Preservation of the Saints is monergistic, resulting in a synergistic (but certain) Perseverance of the Saints.
                    if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy,
                    God shall take away his part from the Book of Life
                    (Re 22:19).

                    OSAS is a lie, but repeating it often enough tricks the mind.

                    There will be a Great Awakening to the Apostolic Canon.

                    Which is ordered by God and contains only
                    foundational prophets and apostles (Eph 2:20, 2 Pet 3:1-2)


                    But sleepy Christendom became intoxicated (Rev 17:2).
                    on the poisonous darnel in the 'Roman Canon' (Mat 13:25),
                    which was compiled by UNINSPIRED early church FATHERS

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Conqueror View Post

                      if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy,
                      God shall take away his part from the Book of Life
                      (Re 22:19).

                      OSAS is a lie, but repeating it often enough tricks the mind.
                      We don't believe in OSAS; we believe in POTS (yes, they are different).
                      John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

                      Comment



                      • if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy,
                        God shall take away his part from the Book of Life
                        (Re 22:19).

                        OSAS is a lie, but repeating it often enough tricks the mind.


                        Originally posted by David1701 View Post

                        We don't believe in OSAS; we believe in POTS (yes, they are different).
                        Originally posted by David1701 View Post

                        The Preservation of the Saints is monergistic, resulting in a synergistic (but certain) Perseverance of the Saints.


                        I have just proven that the perseverance of the saints
                        isn't sure, because it requires synergy.

                        Try denying prophecy in the book of revelation, about being intoxicated.
                        On what one may ask ???

                        See my signature.



                        There will be a Great Awakening to the Apostolic Canon.

                        Which is ordered by God and contains only
                        foundational prophets and apostles (Eph 2:20, 2 Pet 3:1-2)


                        But sleepy Christendom became intoxicated (Rev 17:2).
                        on the poisonous darnel in the 'Roman Canon' (Mat 13:25),
                        which was compiled by UNINSPIRED early church FATHERS

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Conqueror View Post
                          if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy,
                          God shall take away his part from the Book of Life
                          (Re 22:19).

                          OSAS is a lie, but repeating it often enough tricks the mind.







                          I have just proven that the perseverance of the saints
                          isn't sure, because it requires synergy.

                          Try denying prophecy in the book of revelation, about being intoxicated.
                          On what one may ask ???

                          See my signature.


                          God is able to cause people to do whatever he wants (there are many biblical examples), without forcing them against their will. These happenings are synergistic but pre-determined and therefore certain to occur.

                          It seems that you are unable to comprehend how this could be; but that does not make it any less true.
                          John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by TibiasDad View Post

                            Sure it is free, it is free to operate as it capacity to function allows. Calvinists say this all the time, that men choose freely to sin. But the capacity to choose correctly is not within it functionality any longer. It cannot choose freely in this respect.
                            Look, Doug, if you are going to claim that man has "free will", but, in your mind, secretly, mean something different, then how are we supposed to know? The term "free will" is normally used to mean "libertarian free will" or "contra-causal free will"; if you mean something different, then it helps to declare that at the start, not spring it, as a surprise, half way through.


                            Your Edwardsian definition is not "scriptural", it is a logical construct, but not the only one that fits the evidence. Yours definition became necessary, not in itself, but because you had to reconcile the freedom of man with the meticulous sovereignty of God that was your first premise of understanding. Once locked into that, Calvinism had to alter the meaning to freedom to support its preconceived notion of Sovereignty.
                            Biblical sovereignty is what the Bible says it is, by definition. God works all things according to the counsel of his own will; he turns the king's heart wherever he pleases; he moved David to number Israel (a sin!); he intended Joseph's brothers to sell him into slavery; he pre-determined what Herod, the Pharisees, etc. would do to Jesus (hideous sins); even a sparrow does not fall the ground without the involvement (not mere spectating) of the Father, etc., etc.. This is meticulous sovereignty - your insults notwithstanding.
                            John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by David1701 View Post

                              God is able to cause people to do whatever he wants (there are many biblical examples), without forcing them against their will. These happenings are synergistic but pre-determined and therefore certain to occur.

                              It seems that you are unable to comprehend how this could be; but that does not make it any less true.
                              if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy,
                              God shall take away his part from the Tree of Life
                              (Re 22:19).

                              The born-again who deny John's prophesies will be removed,
                              despite the fact that it is against the Father's will.


                              God our Saviour, who desires all men to be saved
                              and to come to the knowledge of the truth
                              (1 Ti 2:34).

                              The synergism required in the process of sanctification
                              can deprive one from eternal life by denying justification by faith.

                              Lack of faith in the word of God by John is just one example.

                              There will be a Great Awakening to the Apostolic Canon.

                              Which is ordered by God and contains only
                              foundational prophets and apostles (Eph 2:20, 2 Pet 3:1-2)


                              But sleepy Christendom became intoxicated (Rev 17:2).
                              on the poisonous darnel in the 'Roman Canon' (Mat 13:25),
                              which was compiled by UNINSPIRED early church FATHERS

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Conqueror View Post

                                if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy,
                                God shall take away his part from the Tree of Life
                                (Re 22:19).

                                The born-again who deny John's prophesies will be removed,
                                despite the fact that it is against the Father's will.


                                God our Saviour, who desires all men to be saved
                                and to come to the knowledge of the truth
                                (1 Ti 2:3–4).

                                The synergism required in the process of sanctification
                                can deprive one from eternal life by denying justification by faith.

                                Lack of faith in the word of God by John is just one example.
                                These are rationalisations, not biblical evidence. The Scriptures themselves do not state what you have opined.
                                John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

                                Comment

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