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Unconditional Election Definition, Description, Explanation, Basis, Objections, etc.

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  • #46
    Originally posted by noemail001 View Post
    Show everyone your stuff. Or don't. Either way. If you had, you could link us to your stuff.
    What Part of "Read Romans 9" didn't you get??? It's an excellent account of how/why God chooses. And since I don't adhere to ANY Systematic, I don't have one to defend.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by SethProton View Post

      Yes. "in" is a preposition telling where something is, or where it took place.
      I was chosen in Christ.
      If you were, then it was done before the foundation of the world.
      John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by David1701 View Post

        If you were, then it was done before the foundation of the world.
        Do you reject the idea of God's foreknowledge? That He can know ahead that you will be in Christ and thereby be chosen.
        Why do you reject that understanding of the verse. Especially in light of it being said in the new testament that Andronicus and Junias were in Christ before Paul was.
        it is while we live on the earth that we come to be in Christ, not in eternity past.
        So while it can be foreknown that we are chosen, it does not take place until we receive Christ in real time.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by SethProton View Post

          Do you reject the idea of God's foreknowledge? That He can know ahead that you will be in Christ and thereby be chosen.
          Why do you reject that understanding of the verse. Especially in light of it being said in the new testament that Andronicus and Junias were in Christ before Paul was.
          it is while we live on the earth that we come to be in Christ, not in eternity past.
          So while it can be foreknown that we are chosen, it does not take place until we receive Christ in real time.
          The Bible does not say that God foreknew that we would be chosen; it says that we WERE chosen, in Christ, before the foundation of the world. He did the choosing and he did it before he created anyone.

          To say that it can be foreknown that we are chosen is nonsense! God is the one who did the choosing; and he couldn't foreknow it (in the tunnel of time sense), because the choosing was done before creation.
          Last edited by David1701; 07-13-18, 04:42 PM. Reason: I don't know why one of my words was asterisked out but I've replace it with "nonsense".
          John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by David1701 View Post

            The Bible does not say that God foreknew that we would be chosen; it says that we WERE chosen, in Christ, before the foundation of the world. He did the choosing and he did it before he created anyone.
            But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life (Jn 5:40).


            From the parable of the Lack of Irresistible Grace;

            The kingdom of heaven is like a certain king
            who arranged a marriage for his son,
            and sent out his servants to call those who were invited
            to the wedding; and they were not willing to come
            (Mt 22:2-3).

            But they made light of it and went their ways,
            one to his own
            TULIP farm, another to his business (Mt 22:5).

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by David1701 View Post

              We were elected before the foundation of the world, so it is impossible for there to be any conditions for us to meet.
              n>Poppycock. You contradict your claims when you tell people this:

              David1701 View Post
              1) Preach the law to unbelievers.
              2) Once they show signs of realising their guilt tell them the gospel.
              3) Having preached the gospel, exhort them to repent and believe in Jesus Christ, telling them that everyone who does will be saved.
              Do you agree or disagree and, if so, with what?

              and

              Originally posted by David1701 View Post

              Exhorting people to repent and believe in Jesus Christ, following a Gospel proclamation, is normal and perfectly valid; but it has nothing to do with whether or not God chose some, all or none of the audience, before the foundation of the world.
              We don't know whom God has chosen, until they repent and believe in Jesus, so we preach the Gospel to everyone.
              Before you stands the Door of Salvation. Above it is written, "Everyone who is willing may come.". When you go through the door and look back, above it is written, "Chosen from before the foundation of the world.".
              We know (as well as we can know) whom God has chosen, from the willingness to repent and believe in Jesus Christ that God has given them and that they continue to manifest in their lives.
              n>Calvinism is loaded with contradictions: of Scripture and of reason. Loaded. Like your stuff.

              .
              Last edited by noemail001; 07-13-18, 10:50 PM.
              Mouser Larry Roy: "yippee ki yay"
              “... see the loonies in their cages… are they not witty… how much amusement they afford… ours is a human world, theirs is a bestial world… " Bedlam

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by David1701 View Post

                ... it says that we WERE chosen, in Christ, before the foundation of the world. He did the choosing and he did it before he created anyone... .
                n>If you are referring to Ephesians 1, then you violate the text, because of what Ephesians says in 4:17-5:20. The biblical text obliterates your teaching about Ephesians 1.

                .
                Mouser Larry Roy: "yippee ki yay"
                “... see the loonies in their cages… are they not witty… how much amusement they afford… ours is a human world, theirs is a bestial world… " Bedlam

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by noemail001 View Post

                  n>If you are referring to Ephesians 1, then you violate the text, because of what Ephesians says in 4:17-5:20. The biblical text obliterates your teaching about Ephesians 1.

                  .
                  Rather Ephesians 1 obliterates your Pelagianism.

                  hope this helps!!!
                  His true identity as both Lord (κύριος used by the LXX to translate Yahweh) and God (θεός used by the LXX to translate Elohim)netbible John 20:28[In John's writings] Of the approximately 70 instances in which ουτος has a personal referent, as many as 44 of them (almost 2/3) refer to the Son. Of the remainder most imply some sort of positive connection with the Son.What is most significant is that NEVER is the Father the referent. 1 John 5:20, Wallace

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by David1701 View Post
                    The Bible does not say that God foreknew that we would be chosen; it says that we WERE chosen,
                    But isn't that something we should assume about God that He foreknows everything?
                    Originally posted by David1701 View Post
                    in Christ, before the foundation of the world. He did the choosing and he did it before he created anyone.
                    Did you take into consideration the verse I gave you where Paul says that some were in Christ before He was? If all Christians were in Christ before the foundation of the world, how could paul say some were in Christ before him?
                    Originally posted by David1701 View Post
                    To say that it can be foreknown that we are chosen is nonsense!
                    God's foreknowledge is nonsense? Let me read on and see how youe xplain this.
                    Originally posted by David1701 View Post
                    T
                    God is the one who did the choosing; and he couldn't foreknow it (in the tunnel of time sense), because the choosing was done before creation.
                    Again, how was the choosing done before creation, if it happens in time that people are in Christ? That's where we are chosen: in Christ. And that happens during our lifetime.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by SethProton View Post
                      But isn't that something we should assume about God that He foreknows everything? [LEFT][COLOR=#252C2F][FONT=Helvetica] Did you take into consideration the verse I gave you where Paul says that some were in Christ before He was? If all Christians were in Christ before the foundation of the world, how could paul say some were in Christ before him? [LEFT][COLOR=#252C2F][FONT=Helvetica] God's foreknowledge is nonsense? Let me read on and see how youe xplain this.[LEFT][COLOR=#252C2F][FONT=Helvetica] Again, how was the choosing done before creation, if it happens in time that people are in Christ? That's where we are chosen: in Christ. And that happens during our lifetime.
                      Nonsense scripture clearly states we were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world ( creation ). It's you who are making up things to deny the obvious and plain meaning of the text.

                      hope this helps!!!
                      His true identity as both Lord (κύριος used by the LXX to translate Yahweh) and God (θεός used by the LXX to translate Elohim)netbible John 20:28[In John's writings] Of the approximately 70 instances in which ουτος has a personal referent, as many as 44 of them (almost 2/3) refer to the Son. Of the remainder most imply some sort of positive connection with the Son.What is most significant is that NEVER is the Father the referent. 1 John 5:20, Wallace

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by civic View Post

                        Nonsense scripture clearly states we were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world ( creation ). It's you who are making up things to deny the obvious and plain meaning of the text.

                        hope this helps!!!
                        Really? I made it up that paul said some were in Christ before he was?
                        What Bible do you use that does not say that?

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by civic View Post

                          Nonsense scripture clearly states we were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world ( creation ). It's you who are making up things to deny the obvious and plain meaning of the text.

                          hope this helps!!!
                          Really? I made it up that paul said some were in Christ before he was?
                          What Bible do you use that does not say that?

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Conqueror View Post

                            But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life (Jn 5:40).


                            From the parable of the Lack of Irresistible Grace;

                            The kingdom of heaven is like a certain king
                            who arranged a marriage for his son,
                            and sent out his servants to call those who were invited
                            to the wedding; and they were not willing to come
                            (Mt 22:2-3).

                            But they made light of it and went their ways,
                            one to his own
                            TULIP farm, another to his business (Mt 22:5).
                            It seems that you don't understand that fallen man, in his natural state, is always unwilling to come to the Lord in repentance and faith.

                            John 3:18-20 (WEB)
                            18 He who believes in him is not judged. He who doesn’t believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.
                            19 This is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil.
                            20 For everyone who does evil hates the light, and doesn’t come to the light, lest his works would be exposed.

                            Now, what about those who DO come to the Lord, in faith?

                            John 3:21 (WEB) But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his works may be revealed, that they have been done in God.”

                            ---The works of the one who does come to the light (i.e. the Gospel and the Lord Jesus Christ) have been done in God (i.e. the person has been born again and his good works, done in God, are the fruit). This confirms what is said earlier in John 3 - You MUST be born again!
                            John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by noemail001 View Post

                              n>Poppycock. You contradict your claims when you tell people this:

                              David1701 View Post
                              1) Preach the law to unbelievers.
                              2) Once they show signs of realising their guilt tell them the gospel.
                              3) Having preached the gospel, exhort them to repent and believe in Jesus Christ, telling them that everyone who does will be saved.
                              Do you agree or disagree and, if so, with what?

                              and



                              n>Calvinism is loaded with contradictions: of Scripture and of reason. Loaded. Like your stuff.

                              .
                              You only think that they are contradictions, because you don't understand.
                              John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by noemail001 View Post

                                n>If you are referring to Ephesians 1, then you violate the text, because of what Ephesians says in 4:17-5:20. The biblical text obliterates your teaching about Ephesians 1.

                                .
                                Ephesians 1 and Ephesians 4 are in harmony (although they do not address the same subject matter). Eph. 1 is background doctrine about what God has done for his elect and Eph. 4 is largely about our sanctification. The exhortation to sanctification is BECAUSE we were chosen, in Christ, before the foundation of the world, to be holy and without blemish before God in love.

                                Eph. 1:3-7 (WEB)
                                3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ;
                                4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and without blemish before him in love;
                                5 having predestined us for adoption as children through Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his desire,
                                6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, by which he freely bestowed favor on us in the Beloved,
                                7 in whom we have our redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,

                                Eph. 4:1-3
                                (WEB)
                                1 I therefore, the prisoner in the Lord, beg you to walk worthily of the calling with which you were called,
                                2 with all lowliness and humility, with patience, bearing with one another in love;
                                3 being eager to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

                                Eph. 4:17-32 (WEB)
                                17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that you no longer walk as the rest of the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind,
                                18 being darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardening of their hearts;
                                19 who having become callous gave themselves up to lust, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
                                20 But you did not learn Christ that way;
                                21 if indeed you heard him, and were taught in him, even as truth is in Jesus:
                                22 that you put away, as concerning your former way of life, the old man, that grows corrupt after the lusts of deceit;
                                23 and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind,
                                24 and put on the new man, who in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of truth.
                                25 Therefore, putting away falsehood, speak truth each one with his neighbor. For we are members of one another.
                                26 “Be angry, and don’t sin.”3 Don’t let the sun go down on your wrath,
                                27 neither give place to the devil.
                                28 Let him who stole steal no more; but rather let him labor, working with his hands the thing that is good, that he may have something to give to him who has need.
                                29 Let no corrupt speech proceed out of your mouth, but such as is good for building up as the need may be, that it may give grace to those who hear.
                                30 Don’t grieve the Holy Spirit of God, in whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
                                31 Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, outcry, and slander, be put away from you, with all malice.
                                32 And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving each other, just as God also in Christ forgave you.
                                John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

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