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  • EDITED--inflammatory

    I, personally, would prefer to testify to the former no matter how long it takes to realize that objective but I cannot do that without your collaboration.
    Originally posted by SethProton View Post
    Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
    That verse says: Come as you are I will help you.
    Not: I will help you so you can come a changed person.
    That is truly remarkable.

    You quote a verse.

    Then you say what it says but what yyou says it says isn't what it actually says and everyone (perhaps but you) can see self-evidently that is not what the verse actually states.

    This is why I take great pains to discriminate between what a verse states, what it might be made to eisegetically say, and what it might be exegetically made to say AND not say given the limitats others verses state.



    Nowhere does that verse state, "Come as you are."

    You, SethProton, might eisegeticlly think that's what it means, but that is not what it actually, factually states. All it states is "Come..."



    And the question asked still was not answered:



    What verse tells us God does not change a person prior to saving him/her?
    Last edited by Mod10; 10-11-18, 08:47 AM.
    All verses cited or quoted or in the NAS unless otherwise noted.

    “if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not win the prize unless he competes according to the rules.” (2 Tim. 2:5)

    Comment


    • Originally posted by SethProton View Post
      Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
      That verse says: Come as you are I will help you.
      Not: I will help you so you can come a changed person.
      So, dear readers and fellows siblings in Christ let's look at this verse in the context in which the gospel writer reports it.

      Working backwards from the verse in question, verse 28, so as to list and examine the various contexts that define, inform, and limit the verse notice first that the verse occurs as part of a prayer. Jesus isn't literally speaking to anyone but his Father in heaven. This is evidenced in verse 25,

      "At that time Jesus said, 'I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants. Yes, Father, for this way was well-pleasing in Your sight. All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him. Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.'" (Mt. 25-30)


      This is the way all the main English translations render the text. Ssome of them separate the last line from the previous sentences but none of them give any indication verse 28 is a statement made to an audience other than the Father. So, this tells us Jesus was praying that those who were heavey laden would come to him for rest. He was not telling heavy laden people to come to him for rest.

      That's what the passage states, Seth. Not what I made it say.


      Our next concern takes us all the way back to the first verse in the chapter. In the previous chapter we learn that Jesus had summoned the twelve to give them instructions about evangelizing the Jewish cities. He gave them authority to preach, heal, and cast out and restircted them from going to the Samaritans or the Gentiles. This message at this time was solely for the Jews, the chosen people of God, the covenant-breaking covenant people of God (Mt. 10:1-7). In the first verse of chapter 11 we find that Jesus has finished his instructions and departed from that place of instruction to preach in "their cities." Then while Jesus is going about preaching John the Baptizer sends his disciples to inquire whether or not Jesus is the one he has been expected, the long-prophesied Messiah. Jesus answers them and as they leave Jesus turns to the crowd (vs. 7) and speaks to them about the prophetic nature of John, informing them that he is the prophesied messenger preceding the Messiah. At verse 10 Jesus is quoting from Malachi 3. Then at verse 16 Jesus indicts the whole generation for their failure to follow him despite having heard his message and performed miracles testifying to his message, a message that is first described all the way back Matthew 3:2 = "Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand." That is what Jesus sent the twelve out to preach.

      After Jesus addresses his immediate audience he begins, at verse 11:20 to denounce the cities in which he'd just preached and performed miracles. He compares the cities to the worst of cities, Tye and Sidon, and declares the cities he'd visited worse than either Tyre or Sidon. The mention these cities is a reference to the OT prophets Ezekiel (ch. 26), Joel (ch. 3), and Amos (ch. 1:9). In other words, the events that had transpired in the cities in which Jesus had just preached and his utterances here in Matthew 11 are all the fulfillment of OT prophesies. God had declared these events would transpire four hundred years before they happened. Because these events were functions of prophetic declaration there was no way they weren't going to happen. To claim they would not happen is to claim God does not know the future, and God has misspoken and He Himself is a false prophet. The inhabitants of those cities weren't asked if they wanted to be the ones spoken about by the prophets of God.

      This is the larger immediate context of Matthew 11:28. First, what Jesus is praying is a prayer, not something he is speaking directly to some audience. Second, that prayer occurs following the fulfillment of prophesy in which the Jewish cities and their inhabitants are further judged (having already been declared covenant breakers in Jeremiah 31-33). After this we have the passage in which the verse in question occurs.




      But wait! There's more! When Jesus says, "Come to me..." he is quoting from Isaiah 28 and Jeremiah 31.

      Matthew 11:25-30 is the immediate context, the paragraph in which the sentence "Come to me..." occurs; the paragraph that inform the sentence. Matthew 10:1-11:24 are the larger surrounding contexts that inform the paragraph in which "Come to me..." occurs as a prayer to God the Father.

      Isaiah 28 and Jeremiah 31 are larger more global contexts that give Matthew 11:28 a fuller significance. Those of you with an interest turn now to Isaiah 28 and then Jeremiah 31 and read those chapters.

      In Isaiah 28 we see that the chapter starts out with "Woe to the proud crown of the drunkards of Ephraim..." so we understand this is a prophetic passage of judgment. As we read through the chapter we arrive at verse 12, the verse Jesus is referencing when he prays to his Father, "Come to me all who are heavy laden..."

      "Indeed, He will speak to this people through stammering lips and a foreign tongue, He who said to them, “Here is rest, give rest to the weary,” and, “Here is repose,” but they would not listen. So the word of the LORD to them will be, 'Order on order, order on order, line on line, line on line, a little here, a little there,' that they may go and stumble backward, be broken, snared and taken captive." (Isa. 28:11-13)


      So we see the words Jesus is speaking has nothing to do with human volition.

      It has everything to do with prophetic utterance.

      God offered them rest but they would not come so He commanded "that they may go and stumble backward, be broken, snared, and taken captive."


      In other words... it is the exact opposite of what you imagined, Seth.



      Jesus was speaking the fulfillment of prophesy upon those to whom he'd preached but would not listen.

      And this Isaiah 12 passage occurs within the context of what Isaiah had uttered just a few chapters earlier in the already-mentioned Isa. 6:9-10: "Be ever hearing, but never understanding; be ever seeing, but never perceiving.'
      Be ever hearing, but never understanding; be ever seeing, but never perceiving.' Make the hearts of this people calloused; deafen their ears and close their eyes
      ."


      They had listened but they did not understand. They had seen but they had not perceived. And the reason they had not perceived and understood is because God Almighty, the Heavenly Father to whom Jesus was praying had determined it would be that way.

      other words... it is the exact opposite of what you imagined, Seth.other words... it is the exact opposite of what you imagined, Seth.


      Because this post is already quite lengthy I will not go through Jeremiah 31 but anyone taking the time to examine that chapter will find the exact same context. Matthe 1:28 is a fulfillment of prophesy that is about those listeners inability to understand what they heard. Faith does come by listening but you can listen all you like and never get saved if God has decided you will be ever listening but never understanding.


      Exegesis, not eisegesis, Seth.
      All verses cited or quoted or in the NAS unless otherwise noted.

      “if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not win the prize unless he competes according to the rules.” (2 Tim. 2:5)

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Josheb View Post
        In the end, when you finally give up I will sumarize the discussion or non-discussion. I will either have the privilege of bearing witness and testifying to a polite and respectful, cogent and coherent, reasonable, rational, and topical discussion of well-rendered scripture that built step-by-step upon agreement..... or I'll report all the subterfuge that ensued, the questions never answered, the statements made that contradicted other statements made, all the fallacies posted, and the baseless claims never evidenced.

        I, personally, would prefer to testify to the former no matter how long it takes to realize that objective but I cannot do that without your collaboration.

        That is truly remarkable.

        You quote a verse.

        Then you say what it says but what yyou says it says isn't what it actually says and everyone (perhaps but you) can see self-evidently that is not what the verse actually states.

        This is why I take great pains to discriminate between what a verse states, what it might be made to eisegetically say, and what it might be exegetically made to say AND not say given the limitats others verses state.



        Nowhere does that verse state, "Come as you are."

        You, SethProton, might eisegeticlly think that's what it means, but that is not what it actually, factually states. All it states is "Come..."



        And the question asked still was not answered:



        What verse tells us God does not change a person prior to saving him/her?
        That's what the verse is addressing. As a Calvinist you may want to go by the letter when it suits you, and by doing so strip a verse of any real and useful meaning. You may want to think about what the verse means to you, if anything at all. My experience here is that Calvinists deny what verses actually mean, based on "those words are not in the verse" and they do it to the point that they render a verse empty of meaning. But Jesus is calling for people to come in whatever condition they are and find rest in Him. He has no mention of changing anyone before they come. That's a Calvinist invention.
        That was your point right? That God changes people before they can come. Well this is a verse you cannot twist to mean that. He just says come and He'll take care of what is wrong.
        by faith we understand...
        Didn't I tell you that if you believe, you will see the glory of God?

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Josheb View Post
          So, dear readers and fellows siblings in Christ let's look at this verse in the context in which the gospel writer reports it.

          Working backwards from the verse in question, verse 28, so as to list and examine the various contexts that define, inform, and limit the verse notice first that the verse occurs as part of a prayer. Jesus isn't literally speaking to anyone but his Father in heaven. This is evidenced in verse 25,
          "At that time Jesus said, 'I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants. Yes, Father, for this way was well-pleasing in Your sight. All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him. Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.'" (Mt. 25-30)
          This is the way all the main English translations render the text. Ssome of them separate the last line from the previous sentences but none of them give any indication verse 28 is a statement made to an audience other than the Father. So, this tells us Jesus was praying that those who were heavey laden would come to him for rest. He was not telling heavy laden people to come to him for rest.

          That's what the passage states, Seth. Not what I made it say.


          Our next concern takes us all the way back to the first verse in the chapter. In the previous chapter we learn that Jesus had summoned the twelve to give them instructions about evangelizing the Jewish cities. He gave them authority to preach, heal, and cast out and restircted them from going to the Samaritans or the Gentiles. This message at this time was solely for the Jews, the chosen people of God, the covenant-breaking covenant people of God (Mt. 10:1-7). In the first verse of chapter 11 we find that Jesus has finished his instructions and departed from that place of instruction to preach in "their cities." Then while Jesus is going about preaching John the Baptizer sends his disciples to inquire whether or not Jesus is the one he has been expected, the long-prophesied Messiah. Jesus answers them and as they leave Jesus turns to the crowd (vs. 7) and speaks to them about the prophetic nature of John, informing them that he is the prophesied messenger preceding the Messiah. At verse 10 Jesus is quoting from Malachi 3. Then at verse 16 Jesus indicts the whole generation for their failure to follow him despite having heard his message and performed miracles testifying to his message, a message that is first described all the way back Matthew 3:2 = "Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand." That is what Jesus sent the twelve out to preach.

          After Jesus addresses his immediate audience he begins, at verse 11:20 to denounce the cities in which he'd just preached and performed miracles. He compares the cities to the worst of cities, Tye and Sidon, and declares the cities he'd visited worse than either Tyre or Sidon. The mention these cities is a reference to the OT prophets Ezekiel (ch. 26), Joel (ch. 3), and Amos (ch. 1:9). In other words, the events that had transpired in the cities in which Jesus had just preached and his utterances here in Matthew 11 are all the fulfillment of OT prophesies. God had declared these events would transpire four hundred years before they happened. Because these events were functions of prophetic declaration there was no way they weren't going to happen. To claim they would not happen is to claim God does not know the future, and God has misspoken and He Himself is a false prophet. The inhabitants of those cities weren't asked if they wanted to be the ones spoken about by the prophets of God.

          This is the larger immediate context of Matthew 11:28. First, what Jesus is praying is a prayer, not something he is speaking directly to some audience. Second, that prayer occurs following the fulfillment of prophesy in which the Jewish cities and their inhabitants are further judged (having already been declared covenant breakers in Jeremiah 31-33). After this we have the passage in which the verse in question occurs.




          But wait! There's more! When Jesus says, "Come to me..." he is quoting from Isaiah 28 and Jeremiah 31.

          Matthew 11:25-30 is the immediate context, the paragraph in which the sentence "Come to me..." occurs; the paragraph that inform the sentence. Matthew 10:1-11:24 are the larger surrounding contexts that inform the paragraph in which "Come to me..." occurs as a prayer to God the Father.

          Isaiah 28 and Jeremiah 31 are larger more global contexts that give Matthew 11:28 a fuller significance. Those of you with an interest turn now to Isaiah 28 and then Jeremiah 31 and read those chapters.

          In Isaiah 28 we see that the chapter starts out with "Woe to the proud crown of the drunkards of Ephraim..." so we understand this is a prophetic passage of judgment. As we read through the chapter we arrive at verse 12, the verse Jesus is referencing when he prays to his Father, "Come to me all who are heavy laden..."
          "Indeed, He will speak to this people through stammering lips and a foreign tongue, He who said to them, “Here is rest, give rest to the weary,” and, “Here is repose,” but they would not listen. So the word of the LORD to them will be, 'Order on order, order on order, line on line, line on line, a little here, a little there,' that they may go and stumble backward, be broken, snared and taken captive." (Isa. 28:11-13)
          So we see the words Jesus is speaking has nothing to do with human volition.

          It has everything to do with prophetic utterance.

          God offered them rest but they would not come so He commanded "that they may go and stumble backward, be broken, snared, and taken captive."


          In other words... it is the exact opposite of what you imagined, Seth.



          Jesus was speaking the fulfillment of prophesy upon those to whom he'd preached but would not listen.

          And this Isaiah 12 passage occurs within the context of what Isaiah had uttered just a few chapters earlier in the already-mentioned Isa. 6:9-10: "Be ever hearing, but never understanding; be ever seeing, but never perceiving.'
          Be ever hearing, but never understanding; be ever seeing, but never perceiving.' Make the hearts of this people calloused; deafen their ears and close their eyes
          ."


          They had listened but they did not understand. They had seen but they had not perceived. And the reason they had not perceived and understood is because God Almighty, the Heavenly Father to whom Jesus was praying had determined it would be that way.

          other words... it is the exact opposite of what you imagined, Seth.other words... it is the exact opposite of what you imagined, Seth.


          Because this post is already quite lengthy I will not go through Jeremiah 31 but anyone taking the time to examine that chapter will find the exact same context. Matthe 1:28 is a fulfillment of prophesy that is about those listeners inability to understand what they heard. Faith does come by listening but you can listen all you like and never get saved if God has decided you will be ever listening but never understanding.


          Exegesis, not eisegesis, Seth.
          You think that by all your words you can disguise EDITED
          Last edited by Mod10; 10-11-18, 08:50 AM.
          by faith we understand...
          Didn't I tell you that if you believe, you will see the glory of God?

          Comment


          • Originally posted by SethProton View Post
            That's what the verse is addressing.
            No, that's what you make the verse say.

            Look, I was asked to provide a verse that states God changes people before they are saved and that's what I did. Twice. There was no interpretation necessary to understand the undeniable fact God changed those people. You said you'd be happy to look at it with me.
            Originally posted by Seth in a prior post
            No I don't see that God changes people before they get saved. And since that is a non-existent idea, I would not be able to find scripture on it.
            If you have a verse you think states that, I am happy to look at it with you. One verse at a time.
            Now I would like parity. Then we can discuss to what degree the verses reporting God changing people before they are saved is representative of any or all that are saved.




            What verse states God does not change a person prior to saving him/her?
            All verses cited or quoted or in the NAS unless otherwise noted.

            “if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not win the prize unless he competes according to the rules.” (2 Tim. 2:5)

            Comment


            • seths false statement is

              But Jesus is calling for people to come in whatever condition they are and find rest in Him.
              Jesus here isn't calling for people to come in whatever condition they are and find rest, but Jesus specifically describes the characters of them whom He is issuing the imperative to "all ye that labour and are heavy laden" so that is a far cry from saying Hes calling all in whatever condition ! What if there condition wasn't that of being laborious and heavy laden ? Then this imperative wasn't for them. And its wresting scripture to say so !

              Comment


              • Originally posted by beloved57 View Post
                seths false statement is

                Jesus here isn't calling for people to come in whatever condition they are and find rest, but Jesus specifically describes the characters of them whom He is issuing the imperative to "all ye that labour and are heavy laden" so that is a far cry from saying Hes calling all in whatever condition ! What if there condition wasn't that of being laborious and heavy laden ? Then this imperative wasn't for them. And its wresting scripture to say so !
                I do agree with Seth that the labor and heavy burden have to do with sin. I part ways because I do not find a single mention in the entirety of the Bible that explicitly states the coming is due to the sinner's (dead slave's) volition, will, or choice. Instead I find piles of scripture detailing various ways God acts upon the dead slave or in that dead slave's life to effect salvation.

                Those of Seth's persuasion see the choice to follow, submit to, and obey God as a choice like any other but scripture tells us in many ways that coming to God, connecting with God, even salvific obedience to God is impossible (Rom. 8:6). Without Christ even righteous acts are trashy garments (Isa. 64:6), completely lacking in any salvific merit. Only those acts built on Christ and prompted by the Spirit and having eternal significance are salvifically meritorious (1 Cor. 3:11-15).



                It is clear Seth was surprised to learn of the changes God made in the Jews in Isaiah 6 and of Paul in Acts 9, as evidenced by the posted responses. The attempt to get around the prevention of salvation in Isaiah 6 by implying they had chosen not to be saved is not only far-fetched, it's immaterial. Romans 9 tells us the Potter God can do whatever He wants with the clay, the clay that is thoroughly corrupt and filled with dross.

                When I was young I used to have a potting wheel and throw clay into bowls, pots, etc. I would purchase large blocks of clay and on occasion they would contain pieces of detritus that had to be picked out of the clay before it could be used. Kneeding the clay is necessary to provide consistency but there is a risk of working air into the clay. A piece of pottery with an air bubble in it will burst or explode when kilned. When I began early career as a carpenter framing houses there was always a period when the crew would arrive at freshly turned ground, which in Virginia is often little more than hard clay. After a day or two the organic material would begin to die, decay, and rot and the sweet odor of freshly turned soil became acrid just plain stinky. Clay containing dross gets tossed out. Clay without any life in it is worthless to grow anything. The whole metaphor of clay pots in Romans is predicated on the usefulness of the pots, the labor or service it provides the Potter - some for noble purposes and some for ignoble purposes. There is no purposeless clay. There are no not-made pots, either. The only options listed are those of either honorable or dishonorable purpose. Something must be added to the passage to infer a third option.

                And this surprising to learn.

                This is why many conversations I have with another poster often have to do with the question of whether we read the Bible based on our own anecdotal experience, or do we read our own anecdotal experience through the Bible. I believe the Bible is authoritative in all to which it speaks so I render my own experience through what God has told me about me (or all humans) in His word about humanity. It may have seemed to me that I was the one making the choice, or that my choice was birthed from within but scripture (and reason, as well as much of science) tells me I am not volitionally autonomous or empowered in such a way. I believe God's word.



                For those interested in some of the latest science there was a TED Talk broadcast on NPR last week as part of the series "What Makes Us Us." I cannot recall the speaker's name but he spoke of how informational content and brain structures affect volition to prove it is not as free as we perceive - that is from the inside! Very interesting stuff. If you track it down pay particular attention to what happens when he plays the snippet of feedback.



                One last thought, one I've posted countless times but warrants repeating: there are no examples of dead slaves coming to Jesus for rest without explicit mentions of God at work in that individual's life. The "coming" can be emphasized ad nauseam but when it all comes down to it the volitional inference is just that - inference! and that inference stands in blunt comparison to nurmerous places where the scriptures report God at work, sometimes that's an explicit report that God changed the person either being saved or not being saved.... before He saved them. Whether or not this is standard operating procedure is a worthy conversation, Try to get a volitionalist to be patient enough to walk through that discussion one verse at a time.
                All verses cited or quoted or in the NAS unless otherwise noted.

                “if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not win the prize unless he competes according to the rules.” (2 Tim. 2:5)

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Josheb View Post
                  I do agree with Seth that the labor and heavy burden have to do with sin. I part ways because I do not find a single mention in the entirety of the Bible that explicitly states the coming is due to the sinner's (dead slave's) volition, will, or choice. Instead I find piles of scripture detailing various ways God acts upon the dead slave or in that dead slave's life to effect salvation.

                  Those of Seth's persuasion see the choice to follow, submit to, and obey God as a choice like any other but scripture tells us in many ways that coming to God, connecting with God, even salvific obedience to God is impossible (Rom. 8:6). Without Christ even righteous acts are trashy garments (Isa. 64:6), completely lacking in any salvific merit. Only those acts built on Christ and prompted by the Spirit and having eternal significance are salvifically meritorious (1 Cor. 3:11-15).



                  It is clear Seth was surprised to learn of the changes God made in the Jews in Isaiah 6 and of Paul in Acts 9, as evidenced by the posted responses. The attempt to get around the prevention of salvation in Isaiah 6 by implying they had chosen not to be saved is not only far-fetched, it's immaterial. Romans 9 tells us the Potter God can do whatever He wants with the clay, the clay that is thoroughly corrupt and filled with dross.

                  When I was young I used to have a potting wheel and throw clay into bowls, pots, etc. I would purchase large blocks of clay and on occasion they would contain pieces of detritus that had to be picked out of the clay before it could be used. Kneeding the clay is necessary to provide consistency but there is a risk of working air into the clay. A piece of pottery with an air bubble in it will burst or explode when kilned. When I began early career as a carpenter framing houses there was always a period when the crew would arrive at freshly turned ground, which in Virginia is often little more than hard clay. After a day or two the organic material would begin to die, decay, and rot and the sweet odor of freshly turned soil became acrid just plain stinky. Clay containing dross gets tossed out. Clay without any life in it is worthless to grow anything. The whole metaphor of clay pots in Romans is predicated on the usefulness of the pots, the labor or service it provides the Potter - some for noble purposes and some for ignoble purposes. There is no purposeless clay. There are no not-made pots, either. The only options listed are those of either honorable or dishonorable purpose. Something must be added to the passage to infer a third option.

                  And this surprising to learn.

                  This is why many conversations I have with another poster often have to do with the question of whether we read the Bible based on our own anecdotal experience, or do we read our own anecdotal experience through the Bible. I believe the Bible is authoritative in all to which it speaks so I render my own experience through what God has told me about me (or all humans) in His word about humanity. It may have seemed to me that I was the one making the choice, or that my choice was birthed from within but scripture (and reason, as well as much of science) tells me I am not volitionally autonomous or empowered in such a way. I believe God's word.



                  For those interested in some of the latest science there was a TED Talk broadcast on NPR last week as part of the series "What Makes Us Us." I cannot recall the speaker's name but he spoke of how informational content and brain structures affect volition to prove it is not as free as we perceive - that is from the inside! Very interesting stuff. If you track it down pay particular attention to what happens when he plays the snippet of feedback.



                  One last thought, one I've posted countless times but warrants repeating: there are no examples of dead slaves coming to Jesus for rest without explicit mentions of God at work in that individual's life. The "coming" can be emphasized ad nauseam but when it all comes down to it the volitional inference is just that - inference! and that inference stands in blunt comparison to nurmerous places where the scriptures report God at work, sometimes that's an explicit report that God changed the person either being saved or not being saved.... before He saved them. Whether or not this is standard operating procedure is a worthy conversation, Try to get a volitionalist to be patient enough to walk through that discussion one verse at a time.
                  ok, but my comment had to d with seths comment
                  "But Jesus is calling for people to come in whatever condition they are and find rest in Him."
                  Do you believe Matt 11:28 is Jesus icalling for people in any condition and find rest in him ?

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by SethProton View Post

                    You think that by all your words you can disguise EDITED
                    You think you can RIP Matthew 11:28 from its context and have your pretext to include everyone when Jesus just went on record a couple verses earlier saying the following which opposes your false teaching on Matthew 11:28.

                    At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father,Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. 26 Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.

                    27 “All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

                    hope this helps !!!
                    His true identity as both Lord (κύριος used by the LXX to translate Yahweh) and God (θεός used by the LXX to translate Elohim)netbible John 20:28[In John's writings] Of the approximately 70 instances in which ουτος has a personal referent, as many as 44 of them (almost 2/3) refer to the Son. Of the remainder most imply some sort of positive connection with the Son.What is most significant is that NEVER is the Father the referent. 1 John 5:20, Wallace

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by beloved57 View Post
                      Do you believe Matt 11:28 is Jesus calling for people in any condition and find rest in him ?
                      I believe I was fairly clear in evidencing Jesus wasn't actually calling anyone in Matthew 11:28. His was a prophetic announcement spoken in prayer and praise, not a request or direct invitation to anyone human standing beside him (other than his Father).

                      But in principle whatever dead slave human "coming" occurs is solely a function of being draw by the Father to the Son, not the dead slave's volition. No one can come to the Son unless the Father draws them (Jn. 6:44) and no one can come to the Father except through the Son (Jn. 14:6).


                      There's an important point of clarification to be made: the salvifically relevant "condition" is singular. There isn't a condition of "any" condition. There is only one condition and that condition is sin. All have sinned and fall short of God's glory. Many are called but few are chosen. None are chosen based on anything of themselves because it is by grace we have been saved through faith and it is a gift of God, anything of ourselves. God's mercy does no in anyway depend upon how a runs or what he wills, but only that of God Himself.
                      All verses cited or quoted or in the NAS unless otherwise noted.

                      “if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not win the prize unless he competes according to the rules.” (2 Tim. 2:5)

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Josheb View Post
                        No, that's what you make the verse say.

                        Look, I was asked to provide a verse that states God changes people before they are saved and that's what I did. Twice. There was no interpretation necessary to understand the undeniable fact God changed those people. You said you'd be happy to look at it with me.Now I would like parity. Then we can discuss to what degree the verses reporting God changing people before they are saved is representative of any or all that are saved.




                        What verse states God does not change a person prior to saving him/her?
                        You are saying something about what you did that is not true. You never showed any verse that teaches God changes us before saving us. You show that God can change people if He chooses and you gave examples of God doing something, but that is not the same as showing scripture that teaches we are all changed so that we can be saved.
                        by faith we understand...
                        Didn't I tell you that if you believe, you will see the glory of God?

                        Comment


                        • What verse states God does not change a person prior to saving him/her?
                          Originally posted by SethProton View Post
                          You are saying something about what you did that is not true. You never showed any verse that teaches God changes us before saving us. You show that God can change people if He chooses and you gave examples of God doing something, but that is not the same as showing scripture that teaches we are all changed so that we can be saved.
                          You are moving the goal posts, Seth. You've moved the goal posts from "changes people" to "changes us." This move of the goal posts is just a variation on whether or not the examples I provided can be generalized to all others - a conversation I am willing to have once you stop farting around.

                          I was asked to show a single verse stating God changed people and I did so. Twice. One was a report of God changing people away from salvation and the other was a report of God changing a person toward salvation. I did what was asked.

                          You have not.

                          It is self evident you have not answered the questions put to you. It is equally self-evident diverse ways of avoiding the questions have been attempted. I have patient, kind, and respectful awaiting the answers to questions asked. In every single case where the questions asked were answered the conversation moved on to the next point of inquiry and discussion. For some unexplained reason we've reached another point at which you are telling me and everyone here you're either unwilling or unable to respond - except in this case I have quite plainly stated I will accept an answer of "I cannot find a single verse that states God doesn't change people before He saves them." I'll gladly accept that response without a single neg in return because even that serves to "bookend" or provide limiting context to the ensuing conversation. Either provide a single verse stating God doesn't change people or acknowledge the absence of such a verse.

                          The risk here is that if this matter isn't addressed no in contrast to the evidence already agreed upon then I might get well into this discussion and you'll bring this up then. So let's get it out of the way now and move on to what degree we can see scripture asserting Isa 6 and Acts 9 is relevant to everyone.

                          Just answer the question asked:



                          What verse states God does not change a person prior to saving him/her?
                          All verses cited or quoted or in the NAS unless otherwise noted.

                          “if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not win the prize unless he competes according to the rules.” (2 Tim. 2:5)

                          Comment


                          • josheb

                            I believe I was fairly clear in evidencing Jesus wasn't actually calling anyone in Matthew 11:28. His was a prophetic announcement spoken in prayer and praise, not a request or direct invitation to anyone human standing beside him (other than his Father).
                            I would disagree with that since the the word come is the grk word deute an imperative meaning:
                            1. come hither, come here, come
                            2. interjection, come!, come now!
                            And Im not going to debate that with you. My point still is to seth and the false comment regarding Matt 11:28 when he stated:

                            "But Jesus is calling for people to come in whatever condition they are and find rest in Him

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by beloved57 View Post
                              josheb



                              I would disagree with that since the the word come is the grk word deute an imperative meaning:
                              1. come hither, come here, come
                              2. interjection, come!, come now!
                              And Im not going to debate that with you. My point still is to seth and the false comment regarding Matt 11:28 when he stated:
                              And this is unfortunate that you would argue against the work that Christ does, thru the Spirit in calling sinners to be saved.
                              by faith we understand...
                              Didn't I tell you that if you believe, you will see the glory of God?

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Josheb View Post
                                I was asked to show a single verse stating God changed people ...
                                Again. This is inaccurate. That was never the point of any of our conversation just to show that God can and does change people. God changed Nebuchadnezzar in a way He has never done to anyone else that we know of. Just change was never the issue.
                                Specifically, the issue was God changing people so they can get saved.
                                by faith we understand...
                                Didn't I tell you that if you believe, you will see the glory of God?

                                Comment

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