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Titus 3:5 Question

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  • #16
    Originally posted by bruisermiller View Post
    I'll be looking forward to his clay's opinion on this...

    Don't you think debate with Seph should be more like this?
    Sounds like Bob, David and yourself are all right on the money.

    I found this in my spirit filled life bible that goes with what's been posted so far.

    KJV Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;


    WORD WEALTH
    Titus 3:5 renewing, anakainosis (an-ak-ahee-no-sis); Strong’s #342: A combination of ana, “again,” and kainos, “new.” The word suggests a renovation, restoration, transformation, and a change of heart and life. In Rom. 12:2, it indicates a complete change for the better, an adjustment of one’s moral and spiritual vision. Here it stresses the work of the Holy Spirit in transforming the life.

    Titus 3:5 Salvation comes through a twofold channel. Through the washing of regeneration may refer either to baptism (see Acts 2:38, where Peter describes the norm of Christian conversion-initiation), or to the cleansing of the believer from the guilt of sin, accomplished by regeneration. Renewing of the Holy Spirit signifies the role of the Holy Spirit in effecting a new birth in the believer and in imparting eternal life to him.



    Its cool when you can learn something about the word of God from the people here that know what they are talking. Thx
    There will be no weeping, only laughter. And as He invites us to come forward, we’ll be prepared to rejoice in the thing we were all created to do—to know and to love God as He has first loved us.

    Comment


    • #17
      What you wrote here is the strongest position.
      Originally posted by mccafferty1 View Post
      the washing of regeneration may refer ... to the cleansing of the believer from the guilt of sin, accomplished by regeneration. Renewing of the Holy Spirit signifies the role of the Holy Spirit in effecting a new birth in the believer and in imparting eternal life to him.
      Using regeneration to mean baptism would be a stretch. Even the word "washing" is completely different word from baptism and would be the only place in the Bible where that Greek word refers to baptism.
      by faith we understand...
      Didn't I tell you that if you believe, you will see the glory of God?

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by His clay View Post
        A comment was made in another thread that has given me some concern. I will now quote it.


        This thread isn't about everything in the post; rather, this thread is about Titus 3:5. This thread is about how Titus 3:5 was used in this post. Here is a question.

        Does Titus 3:5 teach that "regnerated means 'washed' of sin'"?
        The post, quoted above, is assuming that regenerated means "washed" of sin.
        The verse will now be quoted in several different versions.
        CSB Titus 3:5 He saved us-- not by works of righteousness that we had done, but according to His mercy-- through the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit.

        DBY Titus 3:5 not on the principle of works which have been done in righteousness which *we* had done, but according to his own mercy he saved us through the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

        ESV Titus 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

        KJV Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

        NAS Titus 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

        NET Titus 3:5 he saved us not by works of righteousness that we have done but on the basis of his mercy, through the washing of the new birth and the renewing of the Holy Spirit,

        BGT Titus 3:5 οὐκ ἐξ ἔργων τῶν ἐν δικαιοσύνῃ ἃ ἐποιήσαμεν ἡμεῖς ἀλλὰ κατὰ τὸ αὐτοῦ ἔλεος ἔσωσεν ἡμᾶς διὰ λουτροῦ παλιγγενεσίας καὶ ἀνακαινώσεως πνεύματος ἁγίου,
        While I certainly have thoughts on this, I will reserve them for a future date. I am wanting to hear feedback from others, and I am wanting to also give the author of the above post the opportunity to provide a rationale for taking regeneration that way.
        Yes, Titus 3 5 speaks of regeneration through water baptism.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by SethProton View Post
          What you wrote here is the strongest position.

          Using regeneration to mean baptism would be a stretch. Even the word "washing" is completely different word from baptism and would be the only place in the Bible where that Greek word refers to baptism.
          I'll keep checking it out and see what I can come up with.

          Just found this

          washing (Heb. rachats) (2:5; 30:18; Prov. 30:12) Strong’s #7364: In the Bible, washing or bathing has important cultural and religious associations. The ancient custom of washing a guest’s feet was an act of hospitality that lasted into the NT period (Gen. 18:4; John 13:5). Ritual washing was an important step in the purification of the priests for service in the tabernacle (40:12). Washing with water symbolized spiritual cleansing, the preparation necessary for entering God’s presence (Ps. 26:6; 73:13). The OT prophets continued to use this imagery of washing and applied it symbolically to the act of repentance (Is. 1:16; Ezek. 16:4). In the NT, Paul describes redemption in Christ as “the washing of regeneration” (Titus 3:5).
          There will be no weeping, only laughter. And as He invites us to come forward, we’ll be prepared to rejoice in the thing we were all created to do—to know and to love God as He has first loved us.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by mccafferty1 View Post

            I'll keep checking it out and see what I can come up with.

            Just found this

            washing (Heb. rachats) (2:5; 30:18; Prov. 30:12) Strong’s #7364: In the Bible, washing or bathing has important cultural and religious associations. The ancient custom of washing a guest’s feet was an act of hospitality that lasted into the NT period (Gen. 18:4; John 13:5). Ritual washing was an important step in the purification of the priests for service in the tabernacle (40:12). Washing with water symbolized spiritual cleansing, the preparation necessary for entering God’s presence (Ps. 26:6; 73:13). The OT prophets continued to use this imagery of washing and applied it symbolically to the act of repentance (Is. 1:16; Ezek. 16:4). In the NT, Paul describes redemption in Christ as “the washing of regeneration” (Titus 3:5).
            Yes, that's good.
            The word for baptism is different and has the primary meaning to cover over with water as in a sinking ship, or a vegetable cooking in a pot.
            Then they also use the same word for baptism of the Spirit. But not sure that they use that word you are talking about, "washing" in connection with the Spirit.
            by faith we understand...
            Didn't I tell you that if you believe, you will see the glory of God?

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by HTacianas View Post

              Yes, Titus 3 5 speaks of regeneration through water baptism.
              But the word in Titus 3:5 is not baptism. It is loutron instead of baptidzo (my spelling may be bad)
              by faith we understand...
              Didn't I tell you that if you believe, you will see the glory of God?

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by SethProton View Post

                But the word in Titus 3:5 is not baptism. It is loutron instead of baptidzo (my spelling may be bad)
                So you agree that John 3:5, "born of water", is LIKEWISE not about baptism, since the word, "baptizo" is not in the verse?
                "We are not to understand the other side; we are to discuss to expound the truth." -- A misguided apologist
                --------------------------------------------------------------------------
                "The Law is a storm which wrecks your hopes of self-salvation,
                but washes you upon the Rock of Ages."
                -- Charles Haddon Spurgeon

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by mccafferty1 View Post

                  Sounds like Bob, David and yourself are all right on the money.

                  I found this in my spirit filled life bible that goes with what's been posted so far.
                  KJV Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;



                  WORD WEALTH
                  Titus 3:5 renewing, anakainosis (an-ak-ahee-no-sis); Strong’s #342: A combination of ana, “again,” and kainos, “new.” The word suggests a renovation, restoration, transformation, and a change of heart and life. In Rom. 12:2, it indicates a complete change for the better, an adjustment of one’s moral and spiritual vision. Here it stresses the work of the Holy Spirit in transforming the life.

                  Titus 3:5 Salvation comes through a twofold channel. Through the washing of regeneration may refer either to baptism (see Acts 2:38, where Peter describes the norm of Christian conversion-initiation), or to the cleansing of the believer from the guilt of sin, accomplished by regeneration. Renewing of the Holy Spirit signifies the role of the Holy Spirit in effecting a new birth in the believer and in imparting eternal life to him.



                  Its cool when you can learn something about the word of God from the people here that know what they are talking. Thx
                  Thanks. I view Titus 3:5 as a two-fold description of one Regeneration; a heads and tails of one coin. We are cleansed and then reborn, unlike when Jesus describes the OT version of the New Birth. The evil spirit is cast out and when he returns he finds his old home swept and put in order. But since his home is unoccupied he comes back with seven and moves back in. Being washed but not indwelt was the norm for OT believers before the first Christian Pentecost; because the Holy Spirit would come and go back then. NT Saints have it different though; they are Regenerated and Renewed. This happens practically at the same time...
                  Isaiah 53:10-11 NKJV 'When You make His soul an offering for sin, God shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied.'

                  Providence ~ The red headed Stepchild of Contemporary Theologians...
                  New-Protestant Reformation Dec 2009

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by SethProton View Post

                    But the word in Titus 3:5 is not baptism. It is loutron instead of baptidzo (my spelling may be bad)
                    In that usage they both have the same meaning.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by HTacianas View Post

                      In that usage they both have the same meaning.
                      Ok. Not what I thought. Can you show other places where that word is used instead of baptism?
                      by faith we understand...
                      Didn't I tell you that if you believe, you will see the glory of God?

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Theo1689 View Post

                        So you agree that John 3:5, "born of water", is LIKEWISE not about baptism, since the word, "baptizo" is not in the verse?
                        Yes. I agree. Born of the water refers to being born from your mother.
                        As a side idea, it is also in line with the creation of the earth the first time: out of water,
                        by faith we understand...
                        Didn't I tell you that if you believe, you will see the glory of God?

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by bruisermiller View Post

                          Thanks. I view Titus 3:5 as a two-fold description of one Regeneration; a heads and tails of one coin. We are cleansed and then reborn, unlike when Jesus describes the OT version of the New Birth. The evil spirit is cast out and when he returns he finds his old home swept and put in order. But since his home is unoccupied he comes back with seven and moves back in. Being washed but not indwelt was the norm for OT believers before the first Christian Pentecost; because the Holy Spirit would come and go back then. NT Saints have it different though; they are Regenerated and Renewed. This happens practically at the same time...
                          Being regenerated is being renewed (conception) and is a progressive work until one is born from above which is new birth.

                          Christ is presently being formed in us which involves cleansing and sanctification of the Word.

                          God does not call or sanctify those that are dead in trespasses and sins because they are dead with Christ in his death. It is the new spiritual man that rises out of death through the seeds that Jesus sowed in the field (world) where he is preparing new fertile ground for the spiritual seeds to grow.

                          God bless you,

                          SeventhDay

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by His clay View Post
                            This thread isn't about everything in the post; rather, this thread is about Titus 3:5. This thread is about how Titus 3:5 was used in this post. Here is a question.

                            Does Titus 3:5 teach that "regnerated means 'washed' of sin'"?
                            The post, quoted above, is assuming that regenerated means "washed" of sin.

                            While I certainly have thoughts on this, I will reserve them for a future date. I am wanting to hear feedback from others, and I am wanting to also give the author of the above post the opportunity to provide a rationale for taking regeneration that way.
                            My understanding is that Titus 3:5 describes what happens in Acts 2:38. When we repent, God forgives us .. baptizes us with the Spirit (with the Word of God) .. and gives us the Holy Ghost ("Christ in you"). So my understanding of "Holy Ghost" is that HE is the Father's Spirit + the Son's spiritual Person. We truly become "sons of God." Together, the Spirit and Ghost become our "inward man" that is "frees us from the law of sin and death." (Ro 8:2)

                            So regeneration is the new life in Christ, clay. You can't have the new life in Christ until you have "put off the old man of sin." (Eph 4:22-24, Col 3:9-10). You have to put off your OLD GHOST, your "inward man." Your soul (heart and conscience) is washed and your spirit (mind, emotions, and will) is renewed, Titus 3:5. At that time, you have become as a child in Christ -- "innocent" (or at least not guilty) again. "Unless you become as a little child, you shall in no wise enter the kingdom of heaven," right? Regeneration = born again.

                            Now if this were to happen before you believed, you wouldn't need to be saved, right? What the Calvinist gospel seems to imitate is the "everlasting gospel." This is the gospel to those who have never heard the biblical gospel and are, therefore, innocent of sin (there being no "law" to trespass). If such a person acknowledges God, worships and thanks Him (Ro 1:20, Rev 14:6-7), he is "just" because he is innocent and worships that true God of creation. There is no repentance necessary b/c there is no sin been committed -- and likewise, Calvinist assumes that his sins have been forgiven so he doesn't repent in his heart on account of his sin. He simply (what I've heard) "believes and follows" (worships) by faith alone.

                            skypair

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by SethProton View Post

                              Yes. I agree. Born of the water refers to being born from your mother.
                              As a side idea, it is also in line with the creation of the earth the first time: out of water,

                              Found this from: 2 Timothy and Titus: a new covenant commentary / Aída Besançon Spencer

                              . How then did God save them? They were not saved by their own good deeds. Rather, they were saved according to God’s attribute of mercy ( Titus 3:5). Mercy hearkens back to God’s compassionate character ( Titus 3:4). There were two agents of salvation: washing of rebirth and renewal by means of the Holy Spirit (3:5). Palingenesia (rebirth) appears to refer to the same experience as Jesus explains to Nicodemus: one must be born from above to see God’s kingdom (John 3:3, 7).

                              Washing is an important image in the Bible. It can refer to literal everyday bathing. But for the Jews washing was a regular procedure for priests39 and others who may have become unclean from touching a dead body or having had a skin disease. Priests would bathe in preparation for entering God’s sanctuary. Newborn babies also were washed (Ezek 16:4, 9).

                              Thus, washing became an apt metaphor for not sinning, as in “Wash you, be clean; remove your iniquities from your souls before mine eyes; cease from your iniquities” (Isa 1:16). In Titus 3:5, Paul reminds his readers that simply being reborn washes or purifies one from sin. This idea was previously explained in Titus 2:14: Jesus died in order that people might be ransomed and cleansed.

                              The second agent of salvation is the Holy Spirit (3:5). The Holy Spirit makes people new (anakainōsis). The Holy Spirit gives life. When God sends forth the Holy Spirit, life is created and the earth is made new again (Ps 104:30). Despite difficulties experienced through ministry that may affect Christians’ outer nature, their “inner nature is being renewed day by day” (2 Cor 4:16; NRSV).

                              Paul uses the imagery of pouring (ekcheō; 3:6) to describe the experience of being made new by the Holy Spirit. This verb continues the imagery of washing (3:5), because water can be poured out to fill a container. The same verb for “pouring” was used to describe the entering of the Holy Spirit into the disciples at Pentecost (Acts 2:17–18, 33) and the manner in which God’s love enters human hearts (Rom 5:5).

                              Similarly, the Holy Spirit “fills” humans bringing birth (Luke 1:35) and rebirth (Titus 3:5). The subtle mystery of the Triune God is included in Titus. Either God as a whole or God the Father is the Savior who is described as kind and loving and merciful. Rebirth is accomplished by the agency of the Holy Spirit, who is poured out generously ( Titus 3:4–5).

                              This “pouring” is accomplished by the agent, Jesus Christ (who is also our Savior [ Titus 3:6]), who made people righteous by means of God’s grace (3:7). All three Persons of the Trinity are merciful and generous and work together to accomplish the same goal: that we might become heirs ( Titus 3:7). 2 Timothy and Titus: a new covenant commentary / Aída Besançon Spencer.


                              There will be no weeping, only laughter. And as He invites us to come forward, we’ll be prepared to rejoice in the thing we were all created to do—to know and to love God as He has first loved us.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by mccafferty1 View Post


                                Found this from: 2 Timothy and Titus: a new covenant commentary / Aída Besançon Spencer

                                . How then did God save them? They were not saved by their own good deeds. Rather, they were saved according to God’s attribute of mercy ( Titus 3:5). Mercy hearkens back to God’s compassionate character ( Titus 3:4). There were two agents of salvation: washing of rebirth and renewal by means of the Holy Spirit (3:5). Palingenesia (rebirth) appears to refer to the same experience as Jesus explains to Nicodemus: one must be born from above to see God’s kingdom (John 3:3, 7).

                                Washing is an important image in the Bible. It can refer to literal everyday bathing. But for the Jews washing was a regular procedure for priests39 and others who may have become unclean from touching a dead body or having had a skin disease. Priests would bathe in preparation for entering God’s sanctuary. Newborn babies also were washed (Ezek 16:4, 9).

                                Thus, washing became an apt metaphor for not sinning, as in “Wash you, be clean; remove your iniquities from your souls before mine eyes; cease from your iniquities” (Isa 1:16). In Titus 3:5, Paul reminds his readers that simply being reborn washes or purifies one from sin. This idea was previously explained in Titus 2:14: Jesus died in order that people might be ransomed and cleansed.

                                The second agent of salvation is the Holy Spirit (3:5). The Holy Spirit makes people new (anakainōsis). The Holy Spirit gives life. When God sends forth the Holy Spirit, life is created and the earth is made new again (Ps 104:30). Despite difficulties experienced through ministry that may affect Christians’ outer nature, their “inner nature is being renewed day by day” (2 Cor 4:16; NRSV).

                                Paul uses the imagery of pouring (ekcheō; 3:6) to describe the experience of being made new by the Holy Spirit. This verb continues the imagery of washing (3:5), because water can be poured out to fill a container. The same verb for “pouring” was used to describe the entering of the Holy Spirit into the disciples at Pentecost (Acts 2:17–18, 33) and the manner in which God’s love enters human hearts (Rom 5:5).

                                Similarly, the Holy Spirit “fills” humans bringing birth (Luke 1:35) and rebirth (Titus 3:5). The subtle mystery of the Triune God is included in Titus. Either God as a whole or God the Father is the Savior who is described as kind and loving and merciful. Rebirth is accomplished by the agency of the Holy Spirit, who is poured out generously ( Titus 3:4–5).

                                This “pouring” is accomplished by the agent, Jesus Christ (who is also our Savior [ Titus 3:6]), who made people righteous by means of God’s grace (3:7). All three Persons of the Trinity are merciful and generous and work together to accomplish the same goal: that we might become heirs ( Titus 3:7). 2 Timothy and Titus: a new covenant commentary / Aída Besançon Spencer.

                                Here's something that you might want to think about and see if it makes any sense to you.
                                Washing is a cleansing
                                Baptism is a death and resurrection.
                                by faith we understand...
                                Didn't I tell you that if you believe, you will see the glory of God?

                                Comment

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