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Calvin's Audacious Claim...

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  • #61
    Theo stated the following regarding calvinisim

    We would have to abandon Calvin's belief in monotheism...
    We would have to abandon Calvin's belief in the deity of Christ...
    We would have to abandon Calvin's belief in the Trinity...
    We would have to abandon Calvin's belief in the Bible being the infallible word of God...
    We would have to abandon Calvin's belief in God's omnipotence...
    We would have to abandon Calvin's belief in God's omniscience...
    We would have to abandon Calvin's belief in God's invisibility...
    We would have to abandon Calvin's belief in God's eternality...
    We would have to abandon Calvin's belief in God's holiness...
    We would have to abandon Calvin's belief in man's sinfulness...
    We would have to abandon Calvin's belief in man being the creation of God...
    We would have to abandon Calvin's belief in the incarnation of Christ...
    We would have to abandon Calvin's belief in the virgin birth of Christ...
    We would have to abandon Calvin's belief in the miracles of Christ...
    We would have to abandon Calvin's belief in the crucifixion of Christ...
    We would have to abandon Calvin's belief in the death of Christ...
    We would have to abandon Calvin's belief in the bodily resurrection of Christ...
    We would have to abandon Calvin's belief in the blood of Christ on the cross being shed for atonement...
    We would have to abandon Calvin's belief in heaven and hell...
    And if we hold to Calvinism as taught by most, we have to omit that people at the time of Christ believed the One that Promised the Messiah. And that there were those that believed God who Spoke through the prophets about the coming Son. We would have to omit all those in Hebrews 11 that believed God and waited for God's promise to come to pass.

    In fact we would have to omit that those that believe God were destined for saving faith in Christ. Paul's theme in Romans is "faith to faith" even quoting about faith before Christ ever came. He quotes from Habbakuk.

    So when Christ comes the Jewish people ask "Is this the Christ, the Messiah" As Jesus said "Those of the truth hear My Voice." No Jew was of the truth unless they believed God.


    These few verses alone overrule Calvinisim. The Father witnesses to Me. (John 5:37). And did not God in the OT witness to the coming of Christ? Further Jesus said "If you believed Moses you would believe Me, for He wrote of Me." Was not Jesus speaking to the Jews in this passage------those that had the Scriptures that foretold He was coming?

    Calvinists love John 6:44 by they omit but ignore vs 45. "It is written (where?) in the prophets (who spoke for God Hb 1) ......Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.. Where did the Jew learn from God before Christ took the public stage at the age of 30? If a person doesn't believe God neither will they believe the Son of God. (See I Jn 5:9ff)

    These are written ( "breathed by God") so that we may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God." And all of Scripture up until Matthew was written to prepare people for the coming of the fulfillment of God's promise.

    What does Calvin omit------Believing the One that promised---much of Romans 4.

    Yes Paul is difficult to understand in some of his writing particularly Romans-----but start where Paul starts in Romans 1----God Who Promised. And we need to remember that for many years after the resurrection the disciples and Paul used the Scriptures (what God said aforehand) to persuade people that Jesus is the fulfillment of God's promise.


    In the OT people were saved simply by faith that God would fulfill His promise at some future date. In the New Testament Christ is the fulfillment of that original promise that God made to Adam and Eve.
    Last edited by Sean Stewart; 12-25-18, 12:19 PM.

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by Sean Stewart View Post
      These few verses alone overrule Calvinisim.
      Actually, there AREN'T any "verses alone overrule Calvinism".

      You guys have tried for decades.
      And failed miserably.

      The Father witnesses to Me. (John 5:37). And did not God in the OT witness to the coming of Christ? Further Jesus said "If you believed Moses you would believe Me, for He wrote of Me." Was not Jesus speaking to the Jews in this passage------those that had the Scriptures that foretold He was coming?
      And nothing there "overrules Calvinism".
      Care to try again?

      Hint: Simply quoting verses will always fail, because Calvinists (unlike non-Calvinists) believe ALL passages of Scripture.

      Calvinists love John 6:44 by they omit but ignore vs 45. "It is written (where?) in the prophets (who spoke for God Hb 1) ......Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me..
      Um, wrong again.

      We don't "omit" v. 45.
      We simply don't MISINTERPRET it, like YOU do.

      It is NOT saying that drawing is dependent on our "hearing and learning", and if WE succeed in that, THEN we will be allegedly drawn.

      It is saying that God's DRAWING is done by causing the ELECT to "hear and learn".
      "We are not to understand the other side; we are to discuss to expound the truth." -- A misguided apologist
      --------------------------------------------------------------------------
      "The Law is a storm which wrecks your hopes of self-salvation,
      but washes you upon the Rock of Ages."
      -- Charles Haddon Spurgeon

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by skypair View Post
        He was a Christian all right .. he "had a name that lives but are dead." (Rev 3:1, Sardis) This is what Christ thought of the Reformation churches.
        Um, you don't speak for Christ.
        You realize this, right?

        They had the name b/c they believed the gospel but they were dead because they didn't obey it (Acts 2:38) nor did they teach others to obey it.
        Yes, we DO "obey it", and we DO "teach others to obey it".

        The gospel is "BELIEVE AND REPENT", and Calvinists not only believe and repent, but we call OTHERS to believe and repent.

        Over and over again you demonstrate your complete IGNORANCE of Calvinism.
        It's not a wise idea to go spouting off about subjects of which you are completely ignorant.
        You know that, right?

        They went to the opposite extreme from the Catholics. They wouldn't do anything in order to be saved.
        skypair
        You also demonstrate an ignorance of the teachings of the Bible, and of the teachings of Christ.

        Allow me to teach you what the Bible teaches about salvation:

        Eph. 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

        2 Tim. 1:9 who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,

        Tit. 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

        Rom. 4:1 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness. 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

        Rom. 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

        Rom. 11:5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
        "We are not to understand the other side; we are to discuss to expound the truth." -- A misguided apologist
        --------------------------------------------------------------------------
        "The Law is a storm which wrecks your hopes of self-salvation,
        but washes you upon the Rock of Ages."
        -- Charles Haddon Spurgeon

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by Conqueror


          A carnal Calvinist used to say exactly the same,
          until he made a public display of his faith in Calvin.


          We would have to abandon Calvin's belief in monotheism...
          We would have to abandon Calvin's belief in the deity of Christ...
          We would have to abandon Calvin's belief in the Trinity...
          We would have to abandon Calvin's belief in the Bible being the infallible word of God...
          We would have to abandon Calvin's belief in God's omnipotence...
          We would have to abandon Calvin's belief in God's omniscience...
          We would have to abandon Calvin's belief in God's invisibility...
          We would have to abandon Calvin's belief in God's eternality...
          We would have to abandon Calvin's belief in God's holiness...
          We would have to abandon Calvin's belief in man's sinfulness...
          We would have to abandon Calvin's belief in man being the creation of God...
          We would have to abandon Calvin's belief in the incarnation of Christ...
          We would have to abandon Calvin's belief in the virgin birth of Christ...
          We would have to abandon Calvin's belief in the miracles of Christ...
          We would have to abandon Calvin's belief in the crucifixion of Christ...
          We would have to abandon Calvin's belief in the death of Christ...
          We would have to abandon Calvin's belief in the bodily resurrection of Christ...
          We would have to abandon Calvin's belief in the blood of Christ on the cross being shed for atonement...
          We would have to abandon Calvin's belief in heaven and hell...

          Just to correct this MISREPRESENTATION of me, what I quoted was NOT a demosntration of any alleged "faith in Calvin", it was to address the frequent (and fallacious) argumentation by anti-Calvinists of:

          "If it was taught by Calvin, then it must be false, and we can safely reject it."

          For instance,

          "Predestination was taught by Calvin, so we can reject it".

          Such argumentation is fallacious, as I showed above by pointing out many OTHER beliefs of Calvin, which are not to be rejected precisely because they are BIBLICAL.

          Whether "Calvin" taught them or not is IRRELEVANT.
          What is relevant is whether the BIBLE teaches them.



          I don't have "faith in Calvin".
          All the above teachings that I list above, I accept, NOT because "Calvin" taught them, but because THE BIBLE teaches them.
          "We are not to understand the other side; we are to discuss to expound the truth." -- A misguided apologist
          --------------------------------------------------------------------------
          "The Law is a storm which wrecks your hopes of self-salvation,
          but washes you upon the Rock of Ages."
          -- Charles Haddon Spurgeon

          Comment


          • #65


            Content deleted.


            .
            Last edited by Moderator11; 12-25-18, 07:36 PM.

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by skypair View Post
              He was a Christian all right .. he "had a name that lives but are dead." (Rev 3:1, Sardis) This is what Christ thought of the Reformation churches. They had the name b/c they believed the gospel but they were dead because they didn't obey it (Acts 2:38) nor did they teach others to obey it. They went to the opposite extreme from the Catholics. They wouldn't do anything in order to be saved.

              skypair
              Hi, thanks for the response.

              1. I recall that the Sardis = Reformation churches finds its roots in Dispensationalism. Are you a Dispensationalist? I'm not a Dispensationalist, so I do not think Revelation 3 is describing different epochs of history. Even if it did apply to the Reformation era, the text does not say that those in that church were not Christians. The passage gives a strong rebuke towards people who are Christians. So, that text fails to indict John Calvin of not being "born again" or a "true" Christian.

              2. Would you provide a brief explanation of why you believe John Calvin did not "obey" the Gospel, thus rendering him not a true Christian?

              3. Would you provide a brief explanation of how John Calvin did not "teach others" to obey the Gospel?

              Thanks. JS

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by James Swan View Post

                Hi, thanks for the response.

                1. I recall that the Sardis = Reformation churches finds its roots in Dispensationalism. Are you a Dispensationalist? I'm not a Dispensationalist, so I do not think Revelation 3 is describing different epochs of history. Even if it did apply to the Reformation era, the text does not say that those in that church were not Christians. The passage gives a strong rebuke towards people who are Christians. So, that text fails to indict John Calvin of not being "born again" or a "true" Christian.

                2. Would you provide a brief explanation of why you believe John Calvin did not "obey" the Gospel, thus rendering him not a true Christian?

                3. Would you provide a brief explanation of how John Calvin did not "teach others" to obey the Gospel?

                Thanks. JS
                I'd like to add into this by looking at Revelation 1:19 Therefore write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after these things.

                There are three categories of "things" in this verse. I believe the seven church letters address "the things which are"
                by faith we understand...
                Didn't I tell you that if you believe, you will see the glory of God?

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by e v e View Post

                  the point is they broke with God.

                  Not whether they are a house divided.....
                  I see the accusation, but no evidence of the interpretation. The reformers reclaimed the gospel from an errant church. Indulgences were criticized, rightfully. The importance of justification by faith alone was stressed, rightfully (which, of course, needs to be understood in a context which includes Luther's 1st point of his 95 thesis). Sadly, the RCC had already broken with God, and the Protestant Reformation righted things by reclaiming the gospel and correcting errant views of authority. I am very thankful for this.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by His clay View Post

                    I see the accusation, but no evidence of the interpretation. The reformers reclaimed the gospel from an errant church. Indulgences were criticized, rightfully. The importance of justification by faith alone was stressed, rightfully (which, of course, needs to be understood in a context which includes Luther's 1st point of his 95 thesis). Sadly, the RCC had already broken with God, and the Protestant Reformation righted things by reclaiming the gospel and correcting errant views of authority. I am very thankful for this.
                    Amen.
                    John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by James Swan View Post
                      1. I recall that the Sardis = Reformation churches finds its roots in Dispensationalism. Are you a Dispensationalist? I'm not a Dispensationalist, so I do not think Revelation 3 is describing different epochs of history. Even if it did apply to the Reformation era, the text does not say that those in that church were not Christians. The passage gives a strong rebuke towards people who are Christians. So, that text fails to indict John Calvin of not being "born again" or a "true" Christian.
                      You really don't need to be dispie to see the churches laid out (though if helps). Clarence Larkin first noticed the progression and even assigned dates to the eras of the church development. It looks like you have read the portion about Sardis. Notice what Jesus told them "Remember how you first heard, and received, and REPENT!" How and when did they first receive? Pentecost where the church began!!!

                      2. Would you provide a brief explanation of why you believe John Calvin did not "obey" the Gospel, thus rendering him not a true Christian?
                      He didn't teach "repentance unto life." (Acts 11:18, 2:38, 26:20) Repentance unto life means repent and receive eternal life. Calvin believed in "faith alone," right?

                      3. Would you provide a brief explanation of how John Calvin did not "teach others" to obey the Gospel?
                      He taught FAITH ALONE -- MONERGISTIC salvation -- where man cannot save himself by anything that he does. Do you realize how many false churches can be started by faith alone in what we believe alone??

                      What is really amazing about salvation is that God answers your prayer of repentance from "a broken heart and a contrite spirit" (Psa 34:18) IMMEDIATELY! You will feel the burden of sin lifted from you conscience and the Holy Ghost come into your heart .. and it will give you "joy unspeakable,... Receiving the end of your faith, the salvation of your soul." (1Pet 1:8-9)

                      skypair

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by His clay View Post
                        I see the accusation, but no evidence of the interpretation. The reformers reclaimed the gospel from an errant church.
                        No, no, no! The Reformers went to the other extreme based on "the just shall live by faith." That is, they taught that you were justified by faith alone .. or The just (elect) received eternal life by faith alone.

                        I am very thankful for this.
                        You might want to reconsider, clay.

                        skypair

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by skypair View Post
                          No, no, no! The Reformers went to the other extreme based on "the just shall live by faith." That is, they taught that you were justified by faith alone .. or The just (elect) received eternal life by faith alone.


                          You might want to reconsider, clay.

                          skypair
                          So you are faulting the Reformers for following after Romans 1:17? (Which also contains a quotation from Hab 2:4) And Romans 1:16-17 is well known to be the thesis of the book of Romans, regarding the gospel. So you are willing to find fault with the Reformers for following after the gospel, as it is revealed by God in the book of Romans?

                          You might want to reconsider skypair.

                          (Also, readers can note how skypair has deleted, in the above quote of my post, the very important mention of the first of Luther's 95 thesis; this omission then allows for more straw men, soon to follow from skypair)<--take note of the warning skypair, for it will be used against you later.

                          16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is God's power for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
                          17 For the righteousness of God is revealed in the gospel from faith to faith, just as it is written, "The righteous by faith will live."
                          (Rom 1:16-17 NET)

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by His clay View Post
                            So you are faulting the Reformers for following after Romans 1:17? (Which also contains a quotation from Hab 2:4) And Romans 1:16-17 is well known to be the thesis of the book of Romans, regarding the gospel. So you are willing to find fault with the Reformers for following after the gospel, as it is revealed by God in the book of Romans?
                            Romans was written to the CHURCH .. to believers. Romans does NOT contain the gospel. The only place Paul speaks of the gospel is 1Cor 15:1-4 .. and then he tells us that it is possible to believe it in vain, (1Cor 15:2, 14, 17) if we don't "die" (15:36)/REPENT.

                            The gospel was preached to UNBELIEVERS at Pentecost, Acts 2:36-38 and is the most simple, succinct presentation of the gospel of Jesus Christ in all that Bible .. believe-REPENT-receive. And from it, we know that 3000 men were saved and, by baptism, added to the church.

                            skypair

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by skypair View Post
                              Romans does NOT contain the gospel.

                              skypair
                              the Scriptures ........... testify of Me (Jn 5:39).



                              For whom He foreknew,
                              He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son,
                              that He might be the first-born among many brethren
                              (Ro 8:29).

                              What did God foreknew? ....... Who would be justified by faith.



                              .

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Conqueror View Post
                                the Scriptures ........... testify of Me (Jn 5:39).

                                For whom He foreknew,
                                He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son,
                                that He might be the first-born among many brethren
                                (Ro 8:29).

                                What did God foreknew? ....... Who would be justified by faith.
                                Umm, that's NOT the gospel. The good news is that Christ died so that sinners could be saved .. that they could be raised in righteousness as He was .. and that.otherwise, they will be judged with the world. (Jn 16:8-10, 1Cor 15:1-4, Acts 2:36-38)

                                The only "complication" is "How do we receive so great a salvation?" The biblical answer is Acts 2:38 -- "Repent and be baptize in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and receive the Holy Ghost."

                                skypair

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