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Calvin's Audacious Claim...

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  • #76
    Originally posted by skypair View Post
    Umm, that's NOT the gospel. The good news is that Christ died so that sinners could be saved ..
    Umm, NO,THAT is not the gospel either.

    The good news is that Christ died to save HIS people from their sins.
    And He SHALL save "his people":

    Matt. 1:21 She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.”

    The only "complication" is "How do we receive so great a salvation?"
    Um, no.
    The Bible NEVER speaks of "receiving ... salvation", as some independent act of our own will.
    "We are not to understand the other side; we are to discuss to expound the truth." -- A misguided apologist
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "The Law is a storm which wrecks your hopes of self-salvation,
    but washes you upon the Rock of Ages."
    -- Charles Haddon Spurgeon

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by Theo1689 View Post
      The good news is that Christ died to save HIS people from their sins.
      And He SHALL save "his people":
      Hence, His NAME. His name meant that, theo! And it meant that for the JEWS, HIS PEOPLE! The gospel is just what I said it was.

      Matt. 1:21 She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.”
      Thank you for making my case.

      The Bible NEVER speaks of "receiving ... salvation", as some independent act of our own will.
      Good, cause neither did I. The action we take is to depend entirely on Christ to save us. What WE do is repent of our sin and self-directed living. Then God "hands down the verdict."

      It;s kinda like this theo: Job said TO GOD, "I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes" and God gave him a new life. (Job 42:5-6,10)

      skypair

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by skypair View Post
        Hence, His NAME. His name meant that, theo! And it meant that for the JEWS, HIS PEOPLE! The gospel is just what I said it was.


        Thank you for making my case.

        Jesus came to save his people from Jews and Gentiles. Your false teaching will proceed no further. God's people can see right through it.

        John 10:15,16 (WEB)
        15 even as the Father knows me, and I know the Father. I lay down my life for the sheep.
        16 I have other sheep, which are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will hear my voice. They will become one flock with one shepherd.

        Rom. 9:24 (WEB)
        21 Or hasn’t the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel for honor, and another for dishonor? 2Tim 2:20;
        22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath made for destruction,
        23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory on vessels of mercy, which he prepared beforehand for glory,
        24 us, whom he also called, not from the Jews only, but also from the Gentiles?
        John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

        Comment


        • #79

          Originally posted by Conqueror View Post

          the Scriptures ........... testify of Me (Jn 5:39).

          For whom He foreknew,
          He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son,
          that He might be the first-born among many brethren
          (Ro 8:29).

          What did God foreknew? ....... Who would be justified by faith.



          Originally posted by skypair View Post
          Umm, that's NOT the gospel.

          skypair
          I am not interested in your opinion about the gospel.

          Prove what I said to be wrong.

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by David1701 View Post
            Jesus came to save his people from Jews and Gentiles.
            We were NOT "His people" at the tie of the annunciation!

            God's people can see right through it.

            John 10:15,16 (WEB)
            15 even as the Father knows me, and I know the Father. I lay down my life for the sheep.
            16 I have other sheep, which are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will hear my voice. They will become one flock with one shepherd.
            His sheep in Jn 10 were the Jews who believed in God. In 10:16 He makes it clear that there are "other sheep" (GENTILES) that He must bring in.

            Rom. 9:24 (WEB)
            21 Or hasn’t the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel for honor, and another for dishonor? 2Tim 2:20;
            22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath made for destruction,
            23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory on vessels of mercy, which he prepared beforehand for glory,
            24 us, whom he also called, not from the Jews only, but also from the Gentiles?
            You are misreading this. Do you think that ALL Jews in the OT were vessels of dishonor and ALL Gentiles in the NT are vessels of honor? No. There were Jews in the OT and NT and there were Gentiles in the NT who were made vessels of honor. God created them all but He put unbelievers in the category of "dishonor."

            So if you think you "can see right through it," then apparently you aren't one of "God's people" after all.

            skypair

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by Conqueror View Post
              I am not interested in your opinion about the gospel.
              If you won't believe the gospel, then I can't light no more of your darkness. I'm sure God does know who will be saved .. that foreknowledge doesn't save you. You have no way of knowing that God chose you.

              skypair

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by skypair View Post
                You really don't need to be dispie to see the churches laid out (though if helps). Clarence Larkin first noticed the progression and even assigned dates to the eras of the church development. It looks like you have read the portion about Sardis. Notice what Jesus told them "Remember how you first heard, and received, and REPENT!" How and when did they first receive? Pentecost where the church began!!!
                Whatever people are being referred to in Revelation 3:1-3, the text indicates they were Christians, so this passage does not demonstrate John Calvin or the Reformers were not Christians (recall, I asked you for your evidence that Calvin was not a Christian). In fact, after the rebuke of 3:1-3, there were members of Sardis that "had not defiled their garments" and were "worthy." Even though I disagree with your "eras of the church" hermaneutic, If I were to grant it's hypothetical credulity, it would be just as fair to say Revelation 3:4 refers to John Calvin and the Reformers.

                Originally posted by skypair View Post
                He didn't teach "repentance unto life." (Acts 11:18, 2:38, 26:20) Repentance unto life means repent and receive eternal life.
                Calvin on Acts 11:18
                The word repentance alone is expressed in this place, but when he addeth unto life, it appeareth plainly that it is not separated from faith. Therefore, whosoever will rightly profit in the gospel, let him put off the old man, and think upon newness of life, (Ephesians 4:22) that done, let him know for a certainty that he is not called in vain unto repentance, but that there is salvation prepared for him in Christ. So shall it come to pass, that the hope and assurance of salvation shall rest upon the free mercy of God alone, and that the forgiveness of sins shall, notwithstanding, be no cause of sluggish security.

                Calvin on Acts 2:38
                And we must also note this, that we do so begin repentance when we are turned unto God, that we must prosecute the same during our life; therefore, this sermon must continually sound in the Church, repent, (Mark 1:15) not that those men may begin the same, who will be counted faithful, and have a place already in the Church; but that they may go forward in the same; although many do usurp the name of faithful men, which had never any beginning of repentance. Wherefore, we must observe this order in teaching, that those which do yet live unto the world and the flesh may begin to crucify the old man, that they may rise unto newness of life, and that those who are already entered the course of repentance may continually go forward towards the mark. Furthermore, because the inward conversion of the heart ought to bring forth fruits in the life, repentance cannot be rightly taught unless works be required, not those frivolous works which are only in estimation amongst the *******, but such as are sound testimonies of innocence and holiness.

                Calvin on Acts 26:19-20
                Conversion, or turning unto God, is joined with repentance, not as some peculiar thing, but that we may know what it is to repent. Like as, also, on the contrary, the corruption of men and their frowardness is nothing else but an estranging from God. And because repentance is an inward thing, and placed in the affection of the heart, Paul requireth, in the second place, such works as may make the same known, according to that exhortation of John the Baptist: "Bring forth fruits meet for repentance," (Matthew 3:8). Now, forasmuch as the gospel calleth all those which are Christ's unto repentance, it followeth that all men are naturally corrupt, and that they have need to be changed. In like sort, this place teacheth that these men do unskillfully pervert the gospel which separate the grace of Christ from repentance,


                Originally posted by skypair View Post
                Calvin believed in "faith alone," right?
                For a refresher, see this link.

                Originally posted by skypair View Post
                He taught FAITH ALONE -- MONERGISTIC salvation -- where man cannot save himself by anything that he does. Do you realize how many false churches can be started by faith alone in what we believe alone??
                False churches "can be started" just as easily without "monergistic salvation" or "what we believe alone" ...Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormonism, Christian Science, Black Hebrew Israelites, Branch Davidians, etc.

                Originally posted by skypair View Post
                What is really amazing about salvation is that God answers your prayer of repentance from "a broken heart and a contrite spirit" (Psa 34:18) IMMEDIATELY! You will feel the burden of sin lifted from you conscience and the Holy Ghost come into your heart .. and it will give you "joy unspeakable,... Receiving the end of your faith, the salvation of your soul." (1Pet 1:8-9)
                Calvin has stated,

                "...to confess to God privately is a part of true repentance that cannot be omitted. For there is nothing less reasonable than that God should forgive those sins in which we flatter ourselves, and which we hypocritically disguise lest he bring them to light."

                and also:

                "Now if it is true – a fact abundantly clear – b(a) that the whole of the gospel is contained under these two headings, repentance and forgiveness of sins, do we not see that the Lord freely justifies his own in order that he may at the same time restore them to true righteousness by sanctification of his Spirit?"

                In conclusion: what proof do you have that Calvin was not a Christian?

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by skypair View Post
                  You have no way of knowing that God chose you.
                  Sorry, but YOU "have no way of knowing that God" DIDN'T choose any one of us.

                  And guess what?
                  The Holy Spirit, living in me, is a GUARANTEE of my salvation (2 Cor. 1:22, 5:5, Eph. 1:13-14).
                  (Unless you reject the Bible, which you do.)
                  "We are not to understand the other side; we are to discuss to expound the truth." -- A misguided apologist
                  --------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "The Law is a storm which wrecks your hopes of self-salvation,
                  but washes you upon the Rock of Ages."
                  -- Charles Haddon Spurgeon

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Conqueror View Post

                    the Scriptures ........... testify of Me (Jn 5:39).

                    For whom He foreknew,
                    He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son,
                    that He might be the first-born among many brethren
                    (Ro 8:29).

                    What did God foreknew? ....... Who would be justified by faith.
                    Originally posted by skypair View Post
                    If you won't believe the gospel, then I can't light no more of your darkness. I'm sure God does know who will be saved .. that foreknowledge doesn't save you. You have no way of knowing that God chose you.

                    skypair
                    Why are you arguing?


                    .

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by skypair View Post
                      We were NOT "His people" at the tie of the annunciation!


                      His sheep in Jn 10 were the Jews who believed in God. In 10:16 He makes it clear that there are "other sheep" (GENTILES) that He must bring in.


                      You are misreading this. Do you think that ALL Jews in the OT were vessels of dishonor and ALL Gentiles in the NT are vessels of honor? No. There were Jews in the OT and NT and there were Gentiles in the NT who were made vessels of honor. God created them all but He put unbelievers in the category of "dishonor."

                      So if you think you "can see right through it," then apparently you aren't one of "God's people" after all.

                      skypair
                      There have always been some Gentiles who were saved, even in the OT. Also, before the creation of Israel, not one of God's living elect was Jewish.

                      His sheep in Jn 10 were the Jews who believed in God. In 10:16 He makes it clear that there are "other sheep" (GENTILES) that He must bring in.
                      Lol! That was MY point. SMH!

                      Perhaps it escaped your notice but "other sheep" are also ... SHEEP!

                      ---It is only those unbelievers (we ALL start out as unbelievers) whom God has made for dishonour, who never believe. Those unbelievers whom God made for honour, do believe, because God gives them repentance and faith in Jesus Christ.

                      Never mind...

                      I can see that there is no point in trying to help you, since your own opinions blind you to the truth and you are unwilling to accept that (most) others know far better than you.
                      John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by David1701 View Post

                        There have always been some Gentiles who were saved, even in the OT. Also, before the creation of Israel, not one of God's living elect was Jewish.
                        Gentiles didn't exist before the Jewish nation existed,
                        let alone 'elect gentiles'.


                        .

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Conqueror View Post

                          Gentiles didn't exist before the Jewish nation existed,
                          let alone 'elect gentiles'.


                          .
                          Jews also did not exist before Israel was created...

                          As for there being elect Gentiles, the Bible is clear.

                          Rom. 9:21-24 (WEB)
                          21 Or hasn’t the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel for honor, and another for dishonor?
                          22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath made for destruction,
                          23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory on vessels of mercy, which he prepared beforehand for glory,
                          24 us, whom he also called, not from the Jews only, but also from the Gentiles?

                          ---God chose (i.e. elected), in advance, vessels of mercy to save, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles.

                          ---Do you acknowledge this truth?
                          John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by David1701 View Post

                            Jews also did not exist before Israel was created...

                            As for there being elect Gentiles, the Bible is clear.

                            Rom. 9:21-24 (WEB)
                            21 Or hasn’t the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel for honor, and another for dishonor?
                            22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath made for destruction,
                            23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory on vessels of mercy, which he prepared beforehand for glory,
                            24 us, whom he also called, not from the Jews only, but also from the Gentiles?

                            ---God chose (i.e. elected), in advance, vessels of mercy to save, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles.

                            ---Do you acknowledge this truth?
                            Next verse:

                            As He says also in Hosea:

                            “I will call them My people, who were not My people
                            (Ro 9:25).

                            That prophecy deals with 'elect gentiles'

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Conqueror View Post

                              Next verse:

                              As He says also in Hosea:

                              “I will call them My people, who were not My people
                              (Ro 9:25).

                              That prophecy deals with 'elect gentiles'
                              That is talking about Israel and Judah (read the relevant chapters in Hosea).

                              Hosea 1:10 (WEB) Yet the number of the children of Israel will be as the sand of the sea, which can’t be measured nor numbered; and it will come to pass that, in the place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’

                              Now, try to engage with what I posted, rather than running to another Scripture that you have also failed to understand properly.
                              John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by David1701 View Post
                                There have always been some Gentiles who were saved, even in the OT. Also, before the creation of Israel, not one of God's living elect was Jewish.
                                But that is not the point. Remember, He went to the Jews first. It wasn't until they rejected Him that His gospel went out the the Gentiles.

                                Perhaps it escaped your notice but "other sheep" are also ... SHEEP!
                                Yes, and actually, the last became first and the first (Jews, His own people) came last. In fact, His own people won't saved until the tribulation, Ro 11:26.

                                ---It is only those unbelievers (we ALL start out as unbelievers) whom God has made for dishonour, who never believe. Those unbelievers whom God made for honour, do believe, because God gives them repentance and faith in Jesus Christ.
                                So a vessel God made for dishonor is given the title of "honorable" solely b/c God chose to name it so? Pls explain how that works. The pot is made in dishonor but somehow is made honorable after it has already been hardened in dishonor?

                                skypair

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