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For whom did Christ die

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  • For whom did Christ die

    1 Timothy 2:5-6 (KJV)
    5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
    6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

    Hebrews 2:9 (KJV)
    9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

    1 John 2:2 (KJV)
    2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

    2 Peter 2:1 (KJV)
    1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

    Isaiah 53:6-8 (KJV)
    6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
    7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
    8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

    Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

  • #2
    I'm not sure what the point of discussion is; could you clarify that because I don't think there are any Arms or Cals that will disagree with those verses as written. Neither will anyone disagree with the fact that Jesus covered all but clearly all aren't saved. So clarify the desired point of discourse for us.
    All verses cited or quoted or in the NAS unless otherwise noted.

    “if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not win the prize unless he competes according to the rules.” (2 Tim. 2:5)

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Josheb View Post
      I'm not sure what the point of discussion is; could you clarify that because I don't think there are any Arms or Cals that will disagree with those verses as written. Neither will anyone disagree with the fact that Jesus covered all but clearly all aren't saved. So clarify the desired point of discourse for us.
      Tom replies

      Oh I disagree. I believe some will deny Christ died for all and state Christ died only for the elect. For those that do agree I am grateful.

      .
      Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by TomL View Post

        Tom replies

        Oh I disagree. I believe some will deny Christ died for all and state Christ died only for the elect. For those that do agree I am grateful.

        .
        Reminds me of:
        2Pet 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
        1Peter 1:18,19 Redeemed ... with the precious blood of Christ

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by PeanutGallery View Post
          Reminds me of:
          2Pet 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
          Tom replies


          Well we do not want to lump those who believe Christ died for the elect only with the false prophets of that passage. That
          would be wrong.

          Not saying that was your meaning but your post might be misunderstood
          Last edited by TomL; 01-01-19, 09:41 AM.
          Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by TomL View Post
            Tom replies

            Oh I disagree. I believe some will deny Christ died for all and state Christ died only for the elect. For those that do agree I am grateful.
            Is that the answer to my inquiry? Is it your intention this op be about Limited Atonement?

            The classic Calvinist position is that Jesus' life, death, and resurrection is sufficient for all but applied only to those being saved, or as it has been phrased "Sufficient for all, efficient for the elect." God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. It's that part about believing in him that qualifies the universalism some read into the sufficiency of his death. And since unbelievers by definition don't believe (in God or Jesus) they don't get saved.

            And that would be all humans. Every single human who has and will ever live stands already-condemned because s/he has not believed in God's Son (Jn. 3:18).

            Like so many of the debates this is going to boil down to two things: 1) the difference between conversion and 2) who does that initial work. Conversion and salvation are not the same identical event. Conversion from death to life takes a moment but salvation takes a lifetime. The Bible usually uses the same term for both conditions and we read this in the "are saved," "are being saved," and "will be saved;" the past, present-, and future-tense language used in scripture. Salvation is a process that begins with conversion, or regeneration, the point at which we are brought from death to life. Only after having become regenerate are we able to live in collaboration with God's Spirit dwelling and at work within us.

            And the Calvinist position is that it is God Who changes us. It is God and God alone Who brings us to life. Belief and faith in Christ are gifts from God; they are not fleshly intellectual and volitional conditions inherent in all humans in their dead-in-transgression, sin-enslaved state. The part "in Christ" is critical. Humans don't simply decide to believe in created objects and condition; they are prone to do so! Prior to Christ we all constantly chose the created over the Creator. We were individually and collectively an offense to God.

            So God changes those He's saving.

            He brings us from death to life. Conversion is monergistic; salvation is synergistic. Unbelievers aren't believers. God make unbelievers believers; unbelievers don't make themselves believers on their own.

            And this will be completely understandable by any and all readers of the Bible if they will avoid the error of applying to unbelievers words written by believers to believers solely about believers.

            God has done something so powerful that it is sufficient for any and all who have and will ever live, but applicable to, or efficient for those He saves.
            All verses cited or quoted or in the NAS unless otherwise noted.

            “if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not win the prize unless he competes according to the rules.” (2 Tim. 2:5)

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by TomL View Post
              ...


              Well we do not want to lump those who believe Christ died for the elect only with the false prophets of that passage. That
              would be wrong.

              Not saying that was your meaning but your post might be misunderstood
              Claiming Jesus died only for the 'elect' is false teaching; false teaching is mentioned along with false prophets.
              1Peter 1:18,19 Redeemed ... with the precious blood of Christ

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Josheb View Post
                Is that the answer to my inquiry? Is it your intention this op be about Limited Atonement?

                The classic Calvinist position is that Jesus' life, death, and resurrection is sufficient for all but applied only to those being saved, or as it has been phrased "Sufficient for all, efficient for the elect." God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. It's that part about believing in him that qualifies the universalism some read into the sufficiency of his death. And since unbelievers by definition don't believe (in God or Jesus) they don't get saved.

                And that would be all humans. Every single human who has and will ever live stands already-condemned because s/he has not believed in God's Son (Jn. 3:18).

                Like so many of the debates this is going to boil down to two things: 1) the difference between conversion and 2) who does that initial work. Conversion and salvation are not the same identical event. Conversion from death to life takes a moment but salvation takes a lifetime. The Bible usually uses the same term for both conditions and we read this in the "are saved," "are being saved," and "will be saved;" the past, present-, and future-tense language used in scripture. Salvation is a process that begins with conversion, or regeneration, the point at which we are brought from death to life. Only after having become regenerate are we able to live in collaboration with God's Spirit dwelling and at work within us.

                And the Calvinist position is that it is God Who changes us. It is God and God alone Who brings us to life. Belief and faith in Christ are gifts from God; they are not fleshly intellectual and volitional conditions inherent in all humans in their dead-in-transgression, sin-enslaved state. The part "in Christ" is critical. Humans don't simply decide to believe in created objects and condition; they are prone to do so! Prior to Christ we all constantly chose the created over the Creator. We were individually and collectively an offense to God.

                So God changes those He's saving.

                He brings us from death to life. Conversion is monergistic; salvation is synergistic. Unbelievers aren't believers. God make unbelievers believers; unbelievers don't make themselves believers on their own.

                And this will be completely understandable by any and all readers of the Bible if they will avoid the error of applying to unbelievers words written by believers to believers solely about believers.

                God has done something so powerful that it is sufficient for any and all who have and will ever live, but applicable to, or efficient for those He saves.
                Could you maybe answer a bit more directly in regard to the question of whom Christ died <for>?

                I see the phrase “sufficient for” and efficient for there.

                Do you consider there to be two purposes in Christ’s death?

                Christ died for every man without exception in some way, but not all ways?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by TomL View Post

                  Tom replies

                  Oh I disagree. I believe some will deny Christ died for all and state Christ died only for the elect. For those that do agree I am grateful.

                  .
                  The Lord's shed blood, death on the cross and resurrection from the dead were sufficient in value for an infinite number of people; but definite in intended scope (the elect). The Atonement is unlimited in efficacy but limited in intended application.

                  The Arminian limits the efficacy of the Atonement, claiming that it didn't actually atone for anyone; but is only a potential, requiring the will of fallen man, to be become effectual.
                  John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Josheb View Post
                    Is that the answer to my inquiry? Is it your intention this op be about Limited Atonement?
                    .
                    Tom replies

                    Yes.

                    The fact that we can even speak of limited atonement means there is a limitation believed by one theological group not believed by another


                    Thus


                    Limited Atonement

                    Most Calvinists believe Jesus died only for the elect, meaning those who eventually will believe in Jesus and be saved. This view is called limited (or particular) atonement—limited to the elect, not limited in value or sufficiency.


                    Theologically, Calvinists argue against unlimited atonement in several ways. First, if Jesus died for all people, then why aren’t all people saved? Why doesn’t this view result in universalism? Second, if Jesus died for all people but not all are saved as a result, doesn’t this mean Jesus failed in his work on the cross? Isn’t some of the value of his death wasted on those who do not believe? Third, if Jesus died for all people and yet those who do not believe are sent to hell as punishment for their sins, doesn’t that amount to two punishments for the same sin? Even we humans have laws against double jeopardy. Doesn’t this imply that God is unjust

                    AARON, D., Understanding Theology in 15 Minutes a Day (Minneapolis, MN 2012) 149.


                    and confirmed and expounded on here


                    The Extent of the Atonement

                    1. THE EXACT POINT AT ISSUE. The question with which we are concerned at this point is not (a) whether the satisfaction rendered by Christ was in itself sufficient for the salvation of all men, since this is admitted by all; (b) whether the saving benefits are actually applied to every man, for the great majority of those who teach a universal atonement do not believe that all are actually saved; (c) whether the bona fide offer of salvation is made to all that hear the gospel, on the condition of repentance and faith, since the Reformed Churches do not call this in question; nor (d) whether any of the fruits of the death of Christ accrue to the benefit of the non-elect in virtue of their close association with the people of God, since this is explicitly taught by many Reformed scholars.

                    On the other hand, the question does relate to the design of the atonement. Did the Father in sending Christ, and did Christ in coming into the world, to make atonement for sin, do this with the design or for the purpose of saving only the elect or all men? That is the question, and that only is the question.


                    BERKHOF, L., Systematic theology (Grand Rapids, MI 1938) 393-394.


                    2. STATEMENT OF THE REFORMED POSITION. The Reformed position is that Christ died for the purpose of actually and certainly saving the elect, and the elect only. This is equivalent to saying that He died for the purpose of saving only those to whom He actually applies the benefits of His redemptive work.

                    BERKHOF, L., Systematic theology (Grand Rapids, MI 1938) 394.
                    Last edited by TomL; 01-01-19, 11:53 AM.
                    Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I remember back when I was in grade 8, and students were running for student council. A popular marketing scheme was to record an "interview" with the student, and questions were asked, and then song lyrics from contemporary popular songs were played to "answer" the question.

                      It would go something like this:

                      Interviewer: How are you planning on succeeding in this election?
                      Answer: (Beatles) "With a little help from my friends".


                      Of course, the Beatles didn't write that lyric to answer that particular question, but it was instead RIPPED OUT OF CONTEXT, and juxtaposed to that particular question, to give the lyric a meaning that it was never intended.

                      And that is PRECISELY what anti-Calvinists do here, time and time again.

                      In this particular case, a "question" is asked in the title, and then Bible verses are found in the body, and so we are to ASSUME that the verses address the question in the title, when the poster has given ZERO evidence that such is the case.

                      One of the issues is that the poster has failed to EXEGETE any of his "proof-texts", walking through the context of the entire PASSAGE the verse comes from. He simply ASSUMES a particular meaning. Back to the Beatles, if one goes through the lyrics of the song, one understands the CONTEXT of "with a little help from my friends", and understands that the context was NOT about a middle school student in Canada running for student council.

                      Originally posted by TomL View Post
                      1 Timothy 2:5-6 (KJV)
                      5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
                      6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
                      So what is the scope of this "all"?
                      The poster ASSUMES a meaning, but doesn't actually DEMONSTRATE it.

                      Hebrews 2:9 (KJV)
                      9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
                      What does "every man" refer to?
                      Does the poster know and understand that the text literally does not say, "every man", but only says, "each"?
                      The object here is IMPLIED, and must be determined (how?).... FROM THE CONTEXT.

                      What is the CONTEXT of Heb. 2:1-8?
                      The poster doesn't seem to care.

                      1 John 2:2 (KJV)
                      2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
                      What does "whole world" mean? Does it mean, "every single individual"? There is no reason to think so, and certainly no reason is given by the OP. It is simply ASSUMED.

                      And what does "propitiation" mean? If someone's sins are "propitiated", can they be justly condemned? I'm sorry, but if "whole world" here means "every single individual", then this NECESSARILY leads to universalism, which is a heretical and anti-Biblical teaching.

                      2 Peter 2:1 (KJV)
                      1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
                      Why do you ASSUME that this has anything to do with the atonement?

                      There is NO mention of "atonement"...
                      There is NO mention of "propitiation"...
                      There is NO mention of "cross"...
                      There is NO mention of "blood"...
                      There is NO mention of "Jesus"...
                      There is NO mention of "Christ"...
                      There is NO mention of "kurios" (the normal term for "Lord" when referring to Christ) ...

                      There is absolutely ZERO reason to ASSUME this verse has anything to do with the atonement, but the poster simply ASSUMES it is, because the resulting application is favourable to his theology.

                      Isaiah 53:6-8 (KJV)
                      6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
                      7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
                      8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
                      Who is the "we" and "us" here?
                      Who is the "my people"?

                      This is actually a GOOD and RELEVANT passage, since it DOES demonstrate that the atonement IS limited to a particular group, "us", and "my people".


                      How about some others that ACTUALLY address the issue?:

                      Matt. 1:21 She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.

                      John 10:26 but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.

                      Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

                      Heb. 7:25 Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them. (Not all draw near to God)


                      And finally, of course, those who hold to universal atonement must answer some questions about their theology that don't seem to have any kind of rational (or Biblical) answer:

                      1) Since God knows that those who reject Christ WON'T accept Him, why does He "atone" for them when He knows they will never accept it anyway?

                      2) If Christ "atones" for everyone, even those who don't accept Christ, then what just reason is there for condemning them to hell, since their sins have already (according to you guys) been atoned for?

                      3) If God truly "wants" every single individual to be saved, why does He create people, knowing BEFORE He even created them, that they will never accept Christ and be tormented forever?

                      I'm beginning to understand why Dr. James White believes that the logical conclusion to Arminianism, ends up being open theism.
                      Last edited by Theo1689; 01-01-19, 12:28 PM.
                      "We are not to understand the other side; we are to discuss to expound the truth." -- A misguided apologist
                      --------------------------------------------------------------------------
                      "The Law is a storm which wrecks your hopes of self-salvation,
                      but washes you upon the Rock of Ages."
                      -- Charles Haddon Spurgeon

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by TomL View Post
                        Theologically, Calvinists argue against unlimited atonement in several ways. First, if Jesus died for all people, then why aren’t all people saved? Why doesn’t this view result in universalism? Second, if Jesus died for all people but not all are saved as a result, doesn’t this mean Jesus failed in his work on the cross? Isn’t some of the value of his death wasted on those who do not believe? Third, if Jesus died for all people and yet those who do not believe are sent to hell as punishment for their sins, doesn’t that amount to two punishments for the same sin? Even we humans have laws against double jeopardy. Doesn’t this imply that God is unjust

                        AARON, D., Understanding Theology in 15 Minutes a Day (Minneapolis, MN 2012) 149.
                        Actually, the above is incorrect.

                        The "First" way Calvinists argue against limited atonement is from SCRIPTURE, not from rhetorical questions.
                        It is ALWAYS Scripture first.

                        But those questions certainly are an important aspect, and I notice that you didn't have any answer for them.

                        Hmm......
                        "We are not to understand the other side; we are to discuss to expound the truth." -- A misguided apologist
                        --------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        "The Law is a storm which wrecks your hopes of self-salvation,
                        but washes you upon the Rock of Ages."
                        -- Charles Haddon Spurgeon

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Theo1689 View Post

                          Actually, the above is incorrect.

                          The "First" way Calvinists argue against limited atonement is from SCRIPTURE, not from rhetorical questions.
                          It is ALWAYS Scripture first.

                          But those questions certainly are an important aspect, and I notice that you didn't have any answer for them.

                          Hmm......


                          Tom replies

                          First

                          Unless you are claiming that Calvinist do not use those arguments you present no evidence the article is incorrect?

                          Second

                          I wrote here to establish the fact that Calvinist do limit the atonement in a manner not limited by Arminians/Wesleyians

                          in a reply to Josheb

                          It was not my purpose to argue against a position which was not first established



                          Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Christ cannot die, Christ is Gods anointing and He has been the same sense Adam who was the first to be anointed of God to become like Him. Gen 3:22.

                            Christ can be rejected but He cannot die for God will anoint anyone who will receive His anointing which is Christ in you just as Jesus was anointed of God himself. It is you who is supposed to be that person of Christ who is anointed of God just as Jesus was no different at all. If you are different from the way of Jesus then you are not of Gods anointing, His Christ, at all.
                            The human side is to claim the promises of God. The divine side is to receive them.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by TomL View Post
                              Yes. The fact that we can even speak of limited atonement means there is a limitation believed by one theological group not believed by another

                              Thus Limited Atonement

                              Most Calvinists believe Jesus died only for the elect, meaning those who eventually will believe in Jesus and be saved. This view is called limited (or particular) atonement —limited to the elect, not limited in value or sufficiency.


                              Theologically, Calvinists argue against unlimited atonement in several ways.
                              It doesn't help that the adherents to the various positions are often talking about different concepts. That's why it's important to define the terms and clearly articulate one's position using commonly defined and understood terms. As I'm sure you've observed, many Cals don't adequately understand Calvinism and many Arms don't correctly understand Arminianism, and understanding understanding the competition is therefore all the more challenging. We've recently had two very vocal posters state they adhere to a position that is clearly Pelagian but they think they are Arminian.

                              That's why I inquired and framed my reply as Limited Atonement (LA). LA should be understood as I articulated it. I'm fairly confident I can provide quotes from noted monergists and authoritative documents to support what I posted. I think it's mainstream Cal. Not difficult to understand but nonetheless often misunderstood.

                              Christ's work is sufficient for all but efficient only in the lives of those God is saving.

                              That's all LA is about.
                              Originally posted by TomL View Post
                              First, if Jesus died for all people, then why aren’t all people saved? Why doesn’t this view result in universalism?
                              Well, aside from the fact that some do believe all will be saved (universalism) or restored (apokatastasis), the synergist will say God changes the person only to the point at which s/he can then choose God, because salvation can't be coerced. God can allow people to remain dead in sin but He can't make them already-objects-of-destruction because that is contradictory to His being a loving God. Human choice is something God gives all and although He can control all things He allows humans acertain degree of volitional "freedom."

                              There's no scripture that says God abdicates His sovereignty in the arena of human will but that doesn't appear to influence the position.
                              There's no scripture that says unbelievers can become believers in Christ on their own.
                              There's no scripture that says God changes only a little bit, creating an intermediate state of freedom-of-choice-but-not-yet-saved.
                              There's no scripture that says "Volition/will/choice did it,"but there are piles of scripture quite plainly declaring "God did it."

                              And in the area of atonement we should all be able to agree 1) Christ's work is sufficient for all to be saved,but 2) not all do get saved.

                              When asked "Why is that?" some will start with God and others will start with humans. Or to word it slightly more provocatively, some will start with the Creator and others will start with the created:
                              .
                              .
                              .
                              God has decided how far His Son's work reaches and He has decided with whom that work is efficient,

                              or

                              God has decided how far His Son's work reaches but allowed the human to decide whether that work will be efficient in his/her life.





                              I, for my part,find the latter view irrational,not just unscriptural and without Biblical precedent.
                              Originally posted by TomL View Post
                              Second, if Jesus died for all people but not all are saved as a result, doesn’t this mean Jesus failed in his work on the cross? Isn’t some of the value of his death wasted on those who do not believe? Third, if Jesus died for all people and yet those who do not believe are sent to hell as punishment for their sins, doesn’t that amount to two punishments for the same sin? Even we humans have laws against double jeopardy. Doesn’t this imply that God is unjust
                              I would go even further to say it means God isn't sovereign or almighty. He's not really God, he's just a god. Not only is Jesus' work not sufficient to overcome human will but his blood can be rendered of no account or value. "Meh, I chose not to see any value in that grisly death," and so there is no value; it did not save,it did not accomplish it's intended objective and it was the human who got to decide that matter.




                              In recent weeks ops in this board have been posted in which we've learned...
                              Total Depravity (TD) doesn't mean everyone is totally depraved to the point of not being able to do good; it means depravity, the effects of sin are total and as a consequence humanity is individually and collectively incapable of coming to God on his own and that has been the agreed upon view of all the major soteriological models from Augustine to Wesley,with only the Pelagians and Orthodox as dissent.

                              Irresistible Grace (IG) doesn't mean God is forcing anyone to do anything, or that God's grace is incapable of being resisted (it is resisted every second of every minute of every hour of every day), but instead it simply and solely assertsGod's grace is capable of overcoming any resistance it incurs in the process of God saving those He is saving.
                              And now here we have an ability to articulate and clarify the "L" in TULIP's five points: Limited Atonement. It simply and solely means Christ's work is sufficient for all and efficient in the lives of those God is saving. Any other understanding serves as a straw man; it has no bearing on Calvinist soteriology.
                              All verses cited or quoted or in the NAS unless otherwise noted.

                              “if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not win the prize unless he competes according to the rules.” (2 Tim. 2:5)

                              Comment

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