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  • TomL
    started a topic For whom did Christ die

    For whom did Christ die

    1 Timothy 2:5-6 (KJV)
    5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
    6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

    Hebrews 2:9 (KJV)
    9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

    1 John 2:2 (KJV)
    2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

    2 Peter 2:1 (KJV)
    1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

    Isaiah 53:6-8 (KJV)
    6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
    7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
    8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.


  • TomL
    replied
    Originally posted by Sean Stewart View Post


    Glad you agree and it basically undermines how most people understand Romans 8 and 9. The reason is God made a promise to send the Messiah in the OT, and did so through the prophets who spoke for God. When we get to the New Testament, one of the mysteries that is difficult to understand, is what happened to the people that believed God already. Christ didn't take the public stage until the age of 30 and very few people even knew Him before then. Yet John the Baptist (basically) and OT prophets is preparing the way for Him. So what happened to people that turned to God as sinners under John the Baptist's ministry. Or what about the people that believed the OT Scriptures, breathed by God?

    So there is one thing to note through this mystery---were there Jewish people that truly believed God and the recorded Scriptures (breathed by God) that were destined for saving faith in the Messiah? And further what happen to any people who believed God and the Scriptures out among all the distant lands where Moses was taught since ancient times (Acts 11). Did those distant people that believed what God said through Moses wait for the Messiah? Yet most did not know Messiah had come. What about the followers of John the Baptist out near Ephesus on Paul's third mission trip----did they fail to believe what John the Baptist said in preparing people (by the Holy Spirit) for the coming of the Messiah?

    (WE HAVE FOUND HIM THAT IS WRITTEN ABOUT (Jn 1:45) wrecks all kinds of damage on strict Calvinism. But it does not cause damage to Jesus words "If you believed Moses (who spoke for God) you would believe Me, but if you do not believe His words, how will you believe MY WORDS." (Jn 5:45) Did not Moses write about God's promise of the Messiah to come?
    Which is why most of the Jews were unable to believe Christ. They were not that way ontologically from birth but grew calloused and hardened until it became a moral impossibility

    Leave a comment:


  • Sean Stewart
    replied
    QUOTE]Tom replies

    You are welcome

    Theodicy the question of evil/sin is a big one. I cannot see how a holy, loving just God determines man's sin. Beyond that the bible shows he does not[/QUOTE]

    You have said well and I agree, but it is very difficult to understand the problem of what Paul writes in Romans without understanding that a Remnant of Jews still believed God, and God prepared them for the coming of Christ.. Paul even writes that they were vessels of mercy whom God knew and prepared aforehand.

    To solve the problem study Romans 4 carefully-----Paul starts with God Who Promised (not Christ). So what happened to the Jews that believed the prophets and all that God said through Moses and even through John the Baptist. God's witness to the coming Son is indeed powerful.

    God is faithful through Whom we are called------- So did Paul claim that those that Believed God Who promised were destined for saving faith in Christ. (see Romans 4). Even in Paul's thesis statemen (Romans 1:17)the writes this (The righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith----as it is written, "But the righteous shall live by faith." Question to consider about this. Why is it faith to faith? Second question why does Paul quote about faith in God from the OT? Habakkuk That was written even before Christ came, or anyone knew who specifically the Messiah would be.

    Then we have this in Romans as well-------the advantage of the Jew. (Romans 3:1-3) And further we have this, those that did not pursue by faith stumbled over the Stone that God said in the OT that He would lay in Zion. And Jesus said this to John the Baptist followers when they ask Him, Are you the One or should we look for another? Jesus responded with things that were prophecied about that the Messiah would do, and then Jesus said (Blessed are those that do not stumble over Me."


    So why do we need the Scriptures-----breathed by God---and witness to Jesus as the Messiah. And God wants all people to believe in Him. And God has provided all the evidence (beginning with His promise in Genesis, then His promise to Abraham, and promise to David------that the Messiah was coming.

    Further if we do not put our faith in Christ we call God a liar. Why would God be a liar? Because much of what God said in the OT pointed to the day when Messiah would come.

    Read Romans---starting with God Who promised.

    The whole book shows how God is faithful to people that sinners to God and have a spark of faith in Him. And God has revealed Himself to all men so that all are without excuse. To have faith in Christ is to also believe that God has fulfilled His promise He made from the beginning. As Christ said He came to fulfill the Scriptures.

    Leave a comment:


  • SeventhDay
    replied
    Originally posted by Sean Stewart View Post


    Glad you agree and it basically undermines how most people understand Romans 8 and 9. The reason is God made a promise to send the Messiah in the OT, and did so through the prophets who spoke for God. When we get to the New Testament, one of the mysteries that is difficult to understand, is what happened to the people that believed God already. Christ didn't take the public stage until the age of 30 and very few people even knew Him before then. Yet John the Baptist (basically) and OT prophets is preparing the way for Him. So what happened to people that turned to God as sinners under John the Baptist's ministry. Or what about the people that believed the OT Scriptures, breathed by God?

    So there is one thing to note through this mystery---were there Jewish people that truly believed God and the recorded Scriptures (breathed by God) that were destined for saving faith in the Messiah? And further what happen to any people who believed God and the Scriptures out among all the distant lands where Moses was taught since ancient times (Acts 11). Did those distant people that believed what God said through Moses wait for the Messiah? Yet most did not know Messiah had come. What about the followers of John the Baptist out near Ephesus on Paul's third mission trip----did they fail to believe what John the Baptist said in preparing people (by the Holy Spirit) for the coming of the Messiah?

    (WE HAVE FOUND HIM THAT IS WRITTEN ABOUT (Jn 1:45) wrecks all kinds of damage on strict Calvinism. But it does not cause damage to Jesus words "If you believed Moses (who spoke for God) you would believe Me, but if you do not believe His words, how will you believe MY WORDS." (Jn 5:45) Did not Moses write about God's promise of the Messiah to come?
    Spiritually quickened people believe in the Messiah dead corpses do not!

    God bless you,

    SeventhDay

    Leave a comment:


  • Sean Stewart
    replied
    Tom replies

    Of course believing transpired in the Old Testament. Apparently men were able to respond to God

    Glad you agree and it basically undermines how most people understand Romans 8 and 9. The reason is God made a promise to send the Messiah in the OT, and did so through the prophets who spoke for God. When we get to the New Testament, one of the mysteries that is difficult to understand, is what happened to the people that believed God already. Christ didn't take the public stage until the age of 30 and very few people even knew Him before then. Yet John the Baptist (basically) and OT prophets is preparing the way for Him. So what happened to people that turned to God as sinners under John the Baptist's ministry. Or what about the people that believed the OT Scriptures, breathed by God?

    So there is one thing to note through this mystery---were there Jewish people that truly believed God and the recorded Scriptures (breathed by God) that were destined for saving faith in the Messiah? And further what happen to any people who believed God and the Scriptures out among all the distant lands where Moses was taught since ancient times (Acts 11). Did those distant people that believed what God said through Moses wait for the Messiah? Yet most did not know Messiah had come. What about the followers of John the Baptist out near Ephesus on Paul's third mission trip----did they fail to believe what John the Baptist said in preparing people (by the Holy Spirit) for the coming of the Messiah?

    (WE HAVE FOUND HIM THAT IS WRITTEN ABOUT (Jn 1:45) wrecks all kinds of damage on strict Calvinism. But it does not cause damage to Jesus words "If you believed Moses (who spoke for God) you would believe Me, but if you do not believe His words, how will you believe MY WORDS." (Jn 5:45) Did not Moses write about God's promise of the Messiah to come?

    Leave a comment:


  • SeventhDay
    replied
    Originally posted by e v e View Post

    Eden is Christ’s nature and too, a real place. Real does not mean material.

    We are not anymore here in the flesh material realm to draw from Edens treasures. That is the Fall. That is to bury the talents (in the world).

    But are to give back to Him all His attributes/talents ... and no more use them for this world and Eden to return, not transfer to here but restore His eden. That is the Change.

    eden is not part of this earth or material nature... true.

    and im waiting about what you said the interim.
    Agree!

    Thanks for your input!

    Ron

    Leave a comment:


  • e v e
    replied
    Originally posted by SeventhDay View Post

    Eden figuratively if a place is in our heart where we draw from our treasures but how do they get in our heart?

    God is dealing with peoples hearts through out the scriptures and what does it show about our hearts and which is the wrong ground for the seed of life? There is a tree of life and a tree of the knowledge of the fruit of good and evil that prepares us for the other tree once it has done its work.

    The true Eden is Christ in us and in Christ we are part of a heavenly spiritual kingdom and not a natural and earthly one that perishes just like the old man.

    God bless you,

    SeventhDay
    Eden is Christ’s nature and too, a real place. Real does not mean material.

    We are not anymore here in the flesh material realm to draw from Edens treasures. That is the Fall. That is to bury the talents (in the world).

    But are to give back to Him all His attributes/talents ... and no more use them for this world and Eden to return, not transfer to here but restore His eden. That is the Change.

    eden is not part of this earth or material nature... true.

    and im waiting about what you said the interim.

    Leave a comment:


  • SeventhDay
    replied
    Originally posted by e v e View Post

    I would not call some of that dividing okay but some of what you say is dividing and not good, not His - His word is Him. You dont divide God. And further, there is not one pattern though there is His overall context. Because many constructs are described . Not all are His. And much is literal though not this realm, not simply poetic... the most important context now is that this realm is not the one He created... Eden is southeast of here, and not in this dimension of matter.

    i thought you could say more on the point you made of ďinterim and completing?Ē Thank you love.


    Also do you understand how this (current) earth came to be and why its not the land of genesis? Because there you can see his intent and also context of the prophets.that point letís us read literally and literally his prophets and scripture give a treasure house of information.
    Eden figuratively if a place is in our heart where we draw from our treasures but how do they get in our heart?

    God is dealing with peoples hearts through out the scriptures and what does it show about our hearts and which is the wrong ground for the seed of life? There is a tree of life and a tree of the knowledge of the fruit of good and evil that prepares us for the other tree once it has done its work.

    The true Eden is Christ in us and in Christ we are part of a heavenly spiritual kingdom and not a natural and earthly one that perishes just like the old man.

    God bless you,

    SeventhDay

    Leave a comment:


  • e v e
    replied
    Originally posted by SeventhDay View Post

    It is do do with harmonizing the scriptures like line upon line, precept upon precepts, and here a little and there a little,

    It is to do with understanding God 's overall intentions like starting with the Genesis prologue where God is creating man in his own image and Genesis account where God is calling a people to glorify his name.



    It is about context in relationship to God's intentions and how scriptures in the interim of what God is doing is not necessarily what will happen in the end when God completes his task.

    It is about understanding figurative language including spiritual analogy, proverbs, parables satire, symbolism, taunt, condescension, foreknowledge, prophecy and types and shadows.

    There is much that goes into the dividing of the scriptures including poetic language in the parables, psalms, book of Job, Ecclesiastics, and Song of Solomon. Even the Song of Moses in Deuteronomy chapter 32 is poetic and prophetic and chapter 33 prophetic.

    There is a warp and woof to the scriptures all the way through and one must understand the pattern.

    Ron
    I would not call some of that as dividing okay but some of what you say is dividing and not good, not His - His word is Him. You dont divide God. And further, there is not one pattern though there is His overall context. Because many constructs are described . Not all are His. And much is literal though not this realm, not simply poetic... the most important context now is that this realm is not the one He created... Eden is southeast of here, and not in this dimension of matter.

    i thought you could say more on the point you made of “interim and completing?” I felt something more you can say? Thank you love.


    Also do you understand how this (current) earth came to be and why its not the land of genesis? Because there you can see his intent and also context of the prophets.that point letís us read literally and literally his prophets and scripture give a treasure house of information.
    Last edited by e v e; 03-02-19, 11:11 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • SeventhDay
    replied
    Originally posted by e v e View Post

    Please tell me if you wish... though I think that will make things even worse.
    It is do do with harmonizing the scriptures like line upon line, precept upon precepts, and here a little and there a little,

    It is to do with understanding God 's overall intentions like starting with the Genesis prologue where God is creating man in his own image and Genesis account where God is calling a people to glorify his name.

    Gen 4:26 And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.
    It is about context in relationship to God's intentions and how scriptures in the interim of what God is doing is not necessarily what will happen in the end when God completes his task.

    It is about understanding figurative language including spiritual analogy, proverbs, parables satire, symbolism, taunt, condescension, foreknowledge, prophecy and types and shadows.

    There is much that goes into the dividing of the scriptures including poetic language in the parables, psalms, book of Job, Ecclesiastics, and Song of Solomon. Even the Song of Moses in Deuteronomy chapter 32 is poetic and prophetic and chapter 33 prophetic.

    Also, one must understand the meaning of names and places because they are part of understanding the WARP AND WOOF OF THE SCRIPTURES.

    Even numbers are figurative and so are names and places like Easus, Jacob, Israel, Sodom, Egypt, Jerusalem and Mount Zion.

    Also titles and roles are important and convey a lot of meaning.

    There is a warp and woof to the scriptures all the way through and one must understand the pattern.

    Ron
    Last edited by SeventhDay; 03-02-19, 11:09 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • e v e
    replied
    Originally posted by SeventhDay View Post

    Please explain why you say that? Do you understand how "dividing" is meant?

    Ron
    Please tell me if you wish... though I think that will make things even worse.

    Leave a comment:


  • SeventhDay
    replied
    Originally posted by e v e View Post

    Yes it’s satanic. Dividing the Word is horrible.



    Please explain why you say that? Do you understand how "dividing" is meant?

    Ron

    Leave a comment:


  • e v e
    replied
    Originally posted by SeventhDay View Post

    Do you know what it means to rightly divide the Word of truth? Is that satanic?

    Ron
    Yes itís satanic. Dividing the Word is horrible.




    Leave a comment:


  • SeventhDay
    replied
    Originally posted by e v e View Post
    W

    yes I do understand what you mean . And that harmony concept is satanic.

    Do you know what it means to rightly divide the Word of truth? Is that satanic?

    Ron

    Leave a comment:


  • e v e
    replied
    W
    Originally posted by SeventhDay View Post

    Do you truly understand what harmonizing of the scriptures means and why we must do this?

    Yes, we are dealing with the enemy right between our ears yet for those who God has called through spiritual quickening are new spiritual creations who are learning how to deal with the enemy.

    God bless you,

    SeventhDay
    yes I do understand what you mean . And that harmony concept is satanic.


    Leave a comment:

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