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The False Accusation That “God Causes The Sinful Acts Of Man” Explained!!!

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  • Originally posted by ttruscott View Post

    I use free will to refer to a will that is uncerced by any one or thing or idea or anything at all (such as an enslavement to evil), that FORCES me to chose only one option, restricting me from every option.
    Tom replies

    I would say the will is free if it not coerced or determined by other than self. That would also preclude a determination of his desires by another

    In any case that is what the phrase Liberterian free will refers to

    Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

    Comment


    • Originally posted by TomL View Post

      Read again

      God is not the first cause of the pride of life , the lust of the flesh, the lust of our eyes

      our temptations or the fact some had sacrificed their children in the fire

      1 John 2:16 (KJV)
      16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.



      James 1:13-14 (KJV)
      13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
      14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.



      Jeremiah 7:31 (KJV)
      31 And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.


      Jeremiah 19:5 (KJV)
      5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake
      it neither came it into my mind:

      Jeremiah 32:35 (KJV)
      35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through

      the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

      These are examples of the SECOND cause not the first ... We see God ordaining evil to achieve His good purposes all throughout the scripture, Satan and his demons are tools in the hand of God 1 Kings 22 :23 we see God sending an evil spirit into the mouth of false prophets .. God is God and He is satan's God and the Demons God . Read Job as an example of satan being restrained by God..

      Ps 105:23 Then Israel came to Egypt; Jacob sojourned in the land of Ham.24 And the Lord made his people very fruitful
      and made them stronger than their foes. 25 He turned their hearts to hate his people, to deal craftily with his servants.

      God uses corrupted humanity and fallen angels to achieve His good purposes ...








      Have I now become your enemy because I tell you the truth ? Gal 4:16

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Calsgal View Post


        These are examples of the SECOND cause not the first ... We see God ordaining evil to achieve His good purposes all throughout the scripture, Satan and his demons are tools in the hand of God 1 Kings 22 :23 we see God sending an evil spirit into the mouth of false prophets .. God is God and He is satan's God and the Demons God . Read Job as an example of satan being restrained by God..

        Ps 105:23 Then Israel came to Egypt; Jacob sojourned in the land of Ham.24 And the Lord made his people very fruitful
        and made them stronger than their foes. 25 He turned their hearts to hate his people, to deal craftily with his servants.

        God uses corrupted humanity and fallen angels to achieve His good purposes ...







        Tom replies

        Again it was scripturally denied God is involved in the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, the pride of life

        man's temptations or certain evil acts
        Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Sketo View Post
          They start with the biblical idea that mans will is in bondage to sin. This means that God does not have to exert any energy, at all, in order to ordain that sin come to pass! Therefore God is not the cause of sinful actions in Calvinism.



          Originally posted by ttruscott View Post
          1. GOD creates man in bondage to sin, unable not to sin,
          2. but thereby GOD does not create them as sinners nor is HE responsible for their sin...

          ...the biggest double-think scam in the universe! GOD creates cats with all the attributes of catliness but HE is not the cause of their being cats!
          That’s one way to twist a quote!

          For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners... - Romans 5:19a

          Romans 5:19 says that Adam’s sin was the cause of everyone “made” after him to be sinners.


          But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.- Romans 14:23

          Romans 14:23 says that it does not matter what you do... if what you do does not precede from faith then it is sin!


          among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. - Ephesians 2:3

          Ephesians 2:3 says that mankind are by nature children of wrath... unless... God exerts energy that changes that natural carrying out of those desires!


          This means that God does not have to exert any energy, at all, in order to ordain that “passions of our flesh, and the carrying out these desires of the body and the mind” come to pass! Why? Because man does this “by nature” without any force outside of himself.
          2 Timothy 2:24-26

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Sketo View Post

            I didn’t want to have to explain it again so I pointed to the Original Post in hopes that someone would recognize the premise to every argument. I have found out that no matter what thread is started the baggage between people on this board seems to be brought into every topic. Then it eventually evolves into arguing over premises... and not Bible.

            I believe the over-arching theme to every one of these arguments is weather mans will is free... or not! If this is not addressed before the sub-topic is brought up then it’s just becomes pointless arguing.
            Fair enough. And I should have said Lurking instead of Trolling; I do that all the time...
            New-Protestant Reformation ~ Dec 2009 - ____

            I'm a Christian. An Evangelical, Reformed, Independent Fundamental Baptist; a New Calvinist...

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Calsgal View Post

              If mans will is superior to Gods that make man god.. He just waits and helplessly wants
              How can man's will be superior to GOD's if we make the choice HE created us to make by an ability HE created us to use (our free will) to make the decision HE wanted us make for HIM or against HIM??? To give us a free will is NOT to give us the divine characteristics! However did you come up with that??

              You can reframe free will as creatively as you can but you are saying nothing about the proper definition of free will in your straw-horse renderings.
              I champion GOD’s holiness:
              - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
              - Evil is creature-created by their free will.

              I champion Our Free will:
              - All were created with a free will able to chose for HIM or against HIM.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Sketo View Post






                That’s one way to twist a quote!

                For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners... - Romans 5:19a

                Romans 5:19 says that Adam’s sin was the cause of everyone “made” after him to be sinners.
                Yes; we can have it in the back of our Minds that when God is the First Cause this makes him the Author of Sin; but the Bible says Adam is the Author of Sin. An Arminian can use this verse to show that God is not the Author of Sin through Foreknowledge, and a Calvinist can use it to show that God is not the Author of Sin by Decree. At the end of the day it's what the Bible says...
                Last edited by bruisermiller; 02-11-19, 12:32 PM.
                New-Protestant Reformation ~ Dec 2009 - ____

                I'm a Christian. An Evangelical, Reformed, Independent Fundamental Baptist; a New Calvinist...

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Sketo View Post
                  I believe the over-arching theme to every one of these arguments is weather mans will is free... or not! If this is not addressed before the sub-topic is brought up then it’s just becomes pointless arguing.
                  May I then suggest that 1. every person created in GOD's image is created with a free will but loses it when they sin and become addicted to evil and 2. Only by a free will decision to sin does anyone ever become addicted to evil and 3. Only sinners are conceived and born as men, sown INTO THE WORLD by their respective "Fathers": Matt 13:38-39.

                  I champion GOD’s holiness:
                  - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
                  - Evil is creature-created by their free will.

                  I champion Our Free will:
                  - All were created with a free will able to chose for HIM or against HIM.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by reformedguy View Post

                    Depends on what is meant by the word pleasure Doug.
                    Kinda sounds like Bill Clinton saying it depends on what the meaning of the word "is" is.

                    The fact is God created a world where some are going to die in their sin. Which He has always known. The reprobate serve a pupose. The fall is not some sort of unforeseen consequence of creation. It serves a purpose. Not to beat a dead horse here but your issue is with God's omniscience and the logical implications of the definition of the word.
                    God created a world in which both X and Y are equally possible, and he is capable of dealing with either one in any particular case. Purpose implies intent, if not actual need. The purpose of creation was for relationship with his creation. God existed forever without a need for punitive justice, and there is no necessary need for such to be exhibited. There is only a need, and thus a purpose, if rebellion occurs. Rebellion is not necessary in fact, but only in potential. Adam did not necessarily have to sin, but God knew he would, and planned his response accordingly. For true relationship with humanity to occur, there has to be the actual potential for a non-relationship to occur; refusal or acceptance (in Adam's case, continuance) of relationship. It is God's good pleasure to have a willing relationship with mankind, his creation. His pleasure creates the potential of that which he doesn't want to happen, but not the necessity. That it did happen does not mean that he wanted it to happen, not does the foresight that it would mean his desire was for its necessity.


                    Yet He created a world where that was never going to happen. In my opinion, given the attributes of God, your trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. Take my opinion for what it's worth, nothing. Just explaining how I see it.
                    God's attributes, in my humble opinion, do not mandate the necessity of sin. Otherwise, sin would have always been a reality in eternity past prior to creation's reality. It implies that God cannot exist without the reality of sin's actuality. This is how I see it.


                    Doug


                    Dare to be Gracious

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by TomL View Post

                      Tom replies

                      Again it was scripturally denied God is involved in the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, the pride of life

                      man's temptations or certain evil acts
                      I would just refer you to Holy Spirit leading Christ to the Mountain to be tempted by Satan with the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh and the pride of life.


                      Have I now become your enemy because I tell you the truth ? Gal 4:16

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by TomL View Post

                        Read again

                        God is not the first cause of the pride of life , the lust of the flesh, the lust of our eyes

                        our temptations or the fact some had sacrificed their children in the fire

                        1 John 2:16 (KJV)
                        16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.



                        James 1:13-14 (KJV)
                        13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
                        14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.



                        Jeremiah 7:31 (KJV)
                        31 And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.


                        Jeremiah 19:5 (KJV)
                        5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake
                        it neither came it into my mind:

                        Jeremiah 32:35 (KJV)
                        35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through

                        the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.
                        Do you understand what first cause is?
                        Have I now become your enemy because I tell you the truth ? Gal 4:16

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Calsgal View Post

                          I would just refer you to Holy Spirit leading Christ to the Mountain to be tempted by Satan with the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh and the pride of life.

                          Tom replies

                          And I would refer you to your statement

                          God is the first cause of all things

                          and then scriptures which clearly showed was not the cause of the sins of men listed in the verses previously supplied

                          BTW Satan tempting would not be an example of God being the first cause of mans sin or his temptation
                          Last edited by TomL; 02-11-19, 12:44 PM.
                          Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Calsgal View Post

                            Do you understand what first cause is?
                            Just because of God's Pre Existence he must be the First Cause of Everything. It's like the 'Uncaused First Cause' argument we use with Atheists who ask us who created God, was it Super God?

                            Everything after the 'Uncaused first Cause' is Caused; and is subsequently the Effect of the Cause before it; linked to every Cause before that...
                            Last edited by bruisermiller; 02-11-19, 12:57 PM.
                            New-Protestant Reformation ~ Dec 2009 - ____

                            I'm a Christian. An Evangelical, Reformed, Independent Fundamental Baptist; a New Calvinist...

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by ttruscott View Post

                              How can man's will be superior to GOD's if we make the choice HE created us to make by an ability HE created us to use (our free will) to make the decision HE wanted us make for HIM or against HIM??? To give us a free will is NOT to give us the divine characteristics! However did you come up with that??

                              You can reframe free will as creatively as you can but you are saying nothing about the proper definition of free will in your straw-horse renderings.
                              Does man have "free agency" ...

                              Man will always do as he chooses to do ... but that is not really the question is it ?

                              The real question should be WHY does man choose as he does ?

                              First a mans ability to "choose" is limed by his choices .. those were supplied by God..

                              The place of our birth , our sex, our race, our parents, our IQ, our abilities , our build , the educational choices open to us, were all predetermined by God.. and thereby limit our choices..

                              I may want to wear brown shoes today, but if the only shoes I have are black... I can not choose brown

                              If I have a deadly disease, I can not use free will to make myself well.

                              If I fall from a roof top, I can not stop the fall half way down with free will.

                              So our " free will" is limited by God, and our preferences within that set of choices were determined by God when He created us.

                              The real question should be WHY does man choose as he does ?

                              So the idea of free will is limited by God, and our preferences within that set of choices were determined by God when He created us.

                              If God designed you so carefully for this life, consider how much more He as ordained your eternity . You will always choose what God has wiled for you

                              Man loves to believe he saves himself.. but as scripture tells us Salvation is of the Lord ...

                              The Idea of free will is never taught in the scriptures ... what is taught is that God is sovereign over the affairs of me
                              Have I now become your enemy because I tell you the truth ? Gal 4:16

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by TomL View Post

                                Tom replies

                                And I would refer you to your statement

                                God is the first cause of all things

                                and then scriptures which clearly showed was not the cause of the sins of men listed in the verses previously supplied

                                BTW Satan tempting would not be an example of God being the first cause of mans sin or his temptation
                                If the Holy Spirit led Christ into the Mountains to be tempted I would certainly say He was the first cause of that temptation. God Himself did not tempt Christ but used Satan as His to to accomplish the temptation
                                Have I now become your enemy because I tell you the truth ? Gal 4:16

                                Comment

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