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The False Accusation That “God Causes The Sinful Acts Of Man” Explained!!!

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  • Originally posted by ttruscott View Post
    Please consider:
    HE does not violate HIS nature by HIS choice not to, not by being restricted...
    This is not an attack. Just a thought to discuss.

    Just because sin is an avaliable option to God... is it necessarily considered “a “choice”” if He does not sin?

    The phrase “”God chose not to sin”” just seams awkward, as if he thought about “choosing” it then changed his mind!
    2 Timothy 2:24-26

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Sketo View Post

      I agree. If the definition of the term refers only to oranges it should only be used to describe oranges!

      The term “free will” is like the term “fruits”... if the definition of “fruits” only means oranges!

      “Fruits” does not equal apples, bananas, kiwis, etc... just like...

      “Free will” does not equal the will is free from the nature, heart, mind, or the sinful corruption of these faculties of the person.

      So wouldn’t it clear up the confusion if we stoped saying “fruits” when we specifically mean “oranges”! Why don’t we just simply say “oranges”!

      If the term “free will” does not mean “the will is free” in every connotation it may invoke, then shouldn’t we use a better term that more accurately describes what it means?

      Maybe something like “Free Choice” instead would more accurately capture what is meant by the if/then verses of the Bible!




      This is chaos if terms are aloud to “mean what people want them to mean”!

      The term “orange” can not be allowed to mean “apple”!





      So the will is free from external forces... but... the will is not free from internal forces!

      The term “free choice” would cut out the false connotation that the will is free from internal forces!





      Having the “options” freely available is “Free Choice”... but having options available does not necessarily mean one can choose “contra” nature!

      Satan has options freely available, but this does not mean that he can choose “contra” evil! The same with God he has options freely available, but this does not mean that he can choose “contra” righteous!





      This is irrelevant, to the term “free will”, because we have already established that “It is not what is meant by the term”!



      The term “free will” does not mean that the will is not corrupted by sin... it simply means that whatever option the will has finally settled on, weather corrupted by sin or not, is a choice that is freely available without external force!

      So God, man, and Satan would fit this criteria because the term is not referring to nature’s effect on the will...



      ...because “free will” does not mean “mans will is free”...
      Tom replies

      Some use the term “Contra-causal free will” or Libertarian free will

      Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

      Comment


      • Originally posted by TomL View Post
        Tom replies

        Some use the term “Contra-causal free will” or Libertarian free will
        Even these terms demand an explanation...

        ”contra-causal free will” without clarification still leaves you with the connotation that “nothing causes the will” and we know this is not true. We don’t just “flip-a-coin” to choose.

        Something causes the will!

        ...and...

        “Libertarian free will” again just leaves you with having to explain, and being able to make it mean whatever, the user, wants it to mean.

        I think the word will is causing the problem more than anything! We want to capture the idea that God has given choice and the options to choose from are free from force!

        This is why I suggest “Free Choice”...
        2 Timothy 2:24-26

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Conqueror View Post

          You disagree.
          The snide remarks are telling.


          But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. - Romans 3:21–26

          Righteousness comes by faith
          in the gracious redemption by Christ.

          Calvinist disagree for they think to be 'God's chosen gentiles'.
          They will find out on the last day
          about their false gospel, which doesn't save.


          Originally posted by Calsgal View Post


          LOL, You point your self righteous finger at all Calvinists and declare "you must not be saved".. but call rebuttal to your proof texts "snide"


          For when one says, "I am of Calvin," “I am of Paul,”
          and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not carnal?
          - 1 Cor 3:4

          The laughing and condemnation
          by the self-righteous 'chosen gentiles'
          at others perceived misfortune is proof of that carnality.


          .

          Last edited by Conqueror; 02-14-19, 06:26 PM.
          The 2 end-time prophets will preach a return to the FOUNDATIONAL apostles and prophets to those, who are intoxicated on the Roman harlotry of adding tares to the word of God
          Get rid of the dross in the Roman Canon - Raise My Word to the HIGHEST place

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Conqueror View Post






            For when one says, "I am of Calvin," “I am of Paul,”
            and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not carnal?
            - 1 Cor 3:4

            The laughing and condemnation
            by the self-righteous 'chosen gentiles'
            at others perceived misfortune is proof of that carnality.


            .
            Thats what I thought.. no testimony
            Have I now become your enemy because I tell you the truth ? Gal 4:16

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Sketo View Post

              Even these terms demand an explanation...

              ”contra-causal free will” without clarification still leaves you with the connotation that “nothing causes the will” and we know this is not true. We don’t just “flip-a-coin” to choose.

              Something causes the will!

              ...and...

              “Libertarian free will” again just leaves you with having to explain, and being able to make it mean whatever, the user, wants it to mean.

              I think the word will is causing the problem more than anything! We want to capture the idea that God has given choice and the options to choose from are free from force!

              This is why I suggest “Free Choice”...
              Basically that is what the words mean

              Unless man has a choice between options refrain - not refrain it is hard to see why he is fully responsible and if God caused/determined his choice then how is God not implicated in guilt

              Of course I believe when man sins he does so by his own choice and he could have avoided the sin

              and a holy God is not the cause of all of man's sin
              Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Conqueror View Post

                For when one says, "I am of Calvin," “I am of Paul,”
                and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not carnal?
                - 1 Cor 3:4

                The laughing and condemnation
                by the self-righteous 'chosen gentiles'
                at others perceived misfortune is proof of that carnality.

                Originally posted by Calsgal View Post

                Thats what I thought.. no testimony
                That testimony of being mastered by Calvin is all I need.

                The 2 end-time prophets will preach a return to the FOUNDATIONAL apostles and prophets to those, who are intoxicated on the Roman harlotry of adding tares to the word of God
                Get rid of the dross in the Roman Canon - Raise My Word to the HIGHEST place

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Conqueror View Post




                  That testimony of being mastered by Calvin is all I need.
                  This I hear from man that does not believe God is capable of preserving His word..
                  Have I now become your enemy because I tell you the truth ? Gal 4:16

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Conqueror View Post

                    For when one says, "I am of Calvin," “I am of Paul,”
                    and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not carnal?
                    - 1 Cor 3:4

                    The laughing and condemnation
                    by the self-righteous 'chosen gentiles'
                    at others perceived misfortune is proof of that carnality.
                    Originally posted by Calsgal View Post

                    This I hear from man that does not believe God is capable of preserving His word..
                    God's word is preserved,
                    but that did stop the devil from adding tares (Mat 13:25).

                    Those who worship Calvin's reformed RCism
                    and his Roman Canon are likely not to understand.


                    .



                    The 2 end-time prophets will preach a return to the FOUNDATIONAL apostles and prophets to those, who are intoxicated on the Roman harlotry of adding tares to the word of God
                    Get rid of the dross in the Roman Canon - Raise My Word to the HIGHEST place

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by TomL View Post
                      In my camp as long as the will is not determined externally by another it is free even if the nature is bound by sin. Man has the option of a contra causal response

                      It is not necessary that man sin in any one particular instance
                      Ahhh, the light shines stronger!

                      On the other hand I tend to accept that if our ability to choose is abrogated (constrained, coerced) in the least by any outside influence or by an addiction to sin or any external determination, we do not have free will. I therefore do not allow sinners a free will and am very Calvinistic about saved by grace only from no merit of works at all, even seeking HIM. (Sadly my experience trying to fight GOD off supports this....)

                      Do you posit sinner's free will so they may choose against their nature and answer GOD's call? My answer as you may know is that every elect had our time of free will putting our faith in HIM as GOD and in HIS Son as our saviour before we sinned then we did chose to sin, lost our faith, lost our free will and so were born into this world to be redeemed by HIS gift of grace through faith, just as HE promised when HE elected us!
                      I champion GOD’s holiness:
                      - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
                      - Evil is creature-created by their free will.

                      I champion Our Free will:
                      - All were created with a free will able to chose for HIM or against HIM.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by ttruscott View Post

                        Ahhh, the light shines stronger!

                        On the other hand I tend to accept that if our ability to choose is abrogated (constrained, coerced) in the least by any outside influence or by an addiction to sin or any external determination, we do not have free will. I therefore do not allow sinners a free will and am very Calvinistic about saved by grace only from no merit of works at all, even seeking HIM. (Sadly my experience trying to fight GOD off supports this....)

                        Do you posit sinner's free will so they may choose against their nature and answer GOD's call? My answer as you may know is that every elect had our time of free will putting our faith in HIM as GOD and in HIS Son as our saviour before we sinned then we did chose to sin, lost our faith, lost our free will and so were born into this world to be redeemed by HIS gift of grace through faith, just as HE promised when HE elected us!
                        Tom notes

                        I believe the bible contains examples of people who answered God's call before regeneration

                        Examples Lydia, Cornelius, The Ethiopian Eunuch come to mind

                        I do believe that man needs grace before he can come but such grace already exists.

                        God sent his son, He has given us the gospel and men to preach it. He has sent his holy Spirit to convict

                        I believe election is primarily corporate and to service

                        Some have been elect for a particular redemptive purpose

                        Example the nation of Israel. They were elect to carry God's message to the world

                        Sometimes individual men are elect - chosen to fulfil a particular purpose of god

                        Then there is the church. God has chosen to take out a people for his own name

                        and predestined the church to adoption as sons.

                        individual men come into the church and are comprehended as elect when they come to faith



                        Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by TomL View Post
                          I believe the bible contains examples of people who answered God's call before regeneration

                          Examples Lydia, Cornelius, The Ethiopian Eunuch come to mind
                          ...but GOD's grace may have prepared them to respond in faith, no? Can't deny it...
                          I champion GOD’s holiness:
                          - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
                          - Evil is creature-created by their free will.

                          I champion Our Free will:
                          - All were created with a free will able to chose for HIM or against HIM.

                          Comment



                          • Originally posted by TomL View Post

                            I believe the bible contains examples of people who answered God's call before regeneration

                            Examples Lydia, Cornelius, The Ethiopian Eunuch come to mind
                            Originally posted by ttruscott View Post

                            ...but GOD's grace may have prepared them to respond in faith, no? Can't deny it...
                            Noticed how all those examples come from Luke the Greek
                            and that he cannot provide any witnesses (Luke 1:3).


                            that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
                            (Mt 18:16, Deut. 17:6; 19:15; John 8:17; 2 Cor. 13:1).


                            The 2 end-time prophets will preach a return to the FOUNDATIONAL apostles and prophets to those, who are intoxicated on the Roman harlotry of adding tares to the word of God
                            Get rid of the dross in the Roman Canon - Raise My Word to the HIGHEST place

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by ttruscott View Post

                              ...but GOD's grace may have prepared them to respond in faith, no? Can't deny it...
                              Tom replies

                              Yes grace is always needed
                              Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Conqueror View Post




                                Noticed how all those examples come from Luke the Greek
                                and that he cannot provide any witnesses (Luke 1:3).


                                that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
                                (Mt 18:16, Deut. 17:6; 19:15; John 8:17; 2 Cor. 13:1).

                                Luke 1:2 (KJV)
                                2 Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;


                                Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

                                Comment

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