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Repentance, Faith precedes regeneration

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  • Originally posted by SeventhDay View Post

    Spiritual regeneration changes the heart and provides spiritual ears, spiritual understanding and spiritual belief.

    If the old man is not dead then Jesus atonement did not happen!

    No need to be a walking zombie just let the old man go because he is dead!

    God bless you,

    SeventhDay
    tom replies

    The old man dies after one believes

    If one does not believe the old man is still alive
    Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

    Comment


    • Originally posted by TomL View Post

      tom replies

      The old man dies after one believes

      If one does not believe the old man is still alive
      The old man can not believe because he is spiritually dead. God is not interested in the old man but put him out of the way and has no more use for him!

      God bless you,

      Seventhday

      Comment


      • Originally posted by TomL View Post
        Ezekiel 18:30-32 (NASB)
        30 "Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct," declares the Lord GOD. "Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you.
        31 "Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel?

        Repentance which of course requires faith if it is to be Godly repentance precedes the getting of a new heart and a new spirit

        and of course a new heart and a new spirit speaks of regeneration
        I agree with this post, the bible definitely teaches that repentance precedes regeneration (and also faith). The key is found in titus 3:5:

        5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

        To properly understand what is being taught here, it helps to understand what Jesus had to say about washing, and what washes us exactly:

        John 15
        3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

        Its the Word that washes us, and we are born again by the Word (james 1:18, 1 peter 1:23). That is what Jesus is describing in His talk with nicodemus (john 3:3-5). That process comes by us hearing the Word and believing, and Jesus commanded us all to (1) repent and (2) believe the gospel (mark 1:15); the bible teaches no other order. Doing it the way Jesus commanded, brings about the result Jesus spoke:

        John 5
        24Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

        Jesus never taught that anyone must be born again before they can believe or repent, the bible teaches hearing before faith (romans 10:17), repentance before faith (mark 1:15, matt 21:32, acts 20:21, hebrews 6:1), repentance before life (acts 11:18), and repentance before knowing truth (2 tim 2:25). Everything in the epistles and other gospels agree with john 5:24, these man made doctrines do not.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by SeventhDay View Post

          The old man can not believe because he is spiritually dead.
          The Word is life, the life that the Spirit gives (john 6:63). In order to be passed from death to life one hears the Word and believes (john 5:24). The bible does not teach that one is made alive by the Spirit before receiving and believing the Word.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by cadwell View Post

            The Word is life, the life that the Spirit gives (john 6:63). In order to be passed from death to life one hears the Word and believes (john 5:24). The bible does not teach that one is made alive by the Spirit before receiving and believing the Word.
            How do you think a dead man hears the Word?


            Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
            Do you think that it is just possible that God wakes them up?

            How was Lazarus raised from the grave by the Word of God?

            We know that he was raised by how did he hear?

            How would you wake up one that was a sleep?

            Does spiritually quicken mean to make alive?

            Can a dead person believe?

            Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

            Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
            Do you get the connection?

            Notice the connection with this scripture:

            Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
            The carnal or flesh man can not hear but the spiritual man can because he has been quickened out of death whether momentarily or permanently.

            Peter was not converted but he heard from God that Jesus was the Messiah therefore he must have been spiritually quickened but not permanently because Jesus had not died and rose out of the grave and thus not converted.

            Thanks for your input!


            God bless you,

            SeventhDay





            Comment


            • Ezekiel 18 is a wonderfully simple account of the principles of righteousness - according to God. He makes it quite clear that what we do is evidence of our faith - and that disobedience is equated to unbelief. It's all through the writings of the Holy Scripture. It's also in keeping with all His previously spoken and revealed Instructions. The fact is that God - soon after the "fall" of man - said man is capable and responsible to overcome his own sin that sin not be his master. Look at His words to Cain before he killed his brother Abel. Also telling is the first murder was between brothers who were not in accord as to their service towards God.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by TomL View Post

                tom replies

                The old man dies after one believes

                If one does not believe the old man is still alive
                If "born again" Christians are tempted - is it not cause to suspect this may not be so? Or, if the Spirit worked with the Word of God to create the heavens and earth - why doesn't the Spirit cause us to grow and become all God said we should believe and do? Doesn't Ezekiel 17 say this is why He would give His Spirit? that we would do as He instructed "My people"?

                Comment


                • Originally posted by LouisVL View Post
                  Ezekiel 18 is a wonderfully simple account of the principles of righteousness - according to God. He makes it quite clear that what we do is evidence of our faith - and that disobedience is equated to unbelief. It's all through the writings of the Holy Scripture. It's also in keeping with all His previously spoken and revealed Instructions. The fact is that God - soon after the "fall" of man - said man is capable and responsible to overcome his own sin that sin not be his master. Look at His words to Cain before he killed his brother Abel. Also telling is the first murder was between brothers who were not in accord as to their service towards God.
                  How capable is man dealing with his sins and sinning more and more and is completely self destructive apart from the grace of God?

                  However, Christ did not come to deliver the old man dead in trespasses and sins.

                  Christ did not come to change the Law that the soul that sins shall die.

                  Jesus came to get rid of the old man and that is why he died for humanity to eradicate him!

                  The old man dead in trespasses and sins is dead with Christ in his death and forever remains in the grave!

                  It is the new spiritual humanity delivered out of death and spiritually made alive that Jesus cares about and calls to himself and not the old humanity.

                  It is not the old man that is being saved but the new spiritual man which is why we must be born again. God is not reforming the old humanity but he is eliminating the old humanity.

                  Stick with the scriptures and lean what Jesus atonement entails.

                  2Co 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

                  2Co 5:15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

                  2Co 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

                  2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

                  1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

                  1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
                  1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

                  1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

                  1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

                  1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

                  1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

                  1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
                  God bless you,

                  SeventhDay

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by LouisVL View Post

                    If "born again" Christians are tempted - is it not cause to suspect this may not be so? Or, if the Spirit worked with the Word of God to create the heavens and earth - why doesn't the Spirit cause us to grow and become all God said we should believe and do? Doesn't Ezekiel 17 say this is why He would give His Spirit? that we would do as He instructed "My people"?
                    What is your point ?

                    You do not believe the old man dies ?
                    Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by SeventhDay View Post

                      How do you think a dead man hears the Word?
                      With his ears.

                      Do you think that it is just possible that God wakes them up?

                      How was Lazarus raised from the grave by the Word of God?

                      We know that he was raised by how did he hear?
                      It seems as if you would like to jump back and forth between physical and spiritual death, which can confuse the issue. Lazarus wasnt "born again" in the sense its being discussed here, and his death and resurrection wasnt an example of whats being discussed either. The bible makes as much abundantly clear.

                      How would you wake up one that was a sleep?

                      Does spiritually quicken mean to make alive?

                      Can a dead person believe?
                      Yes they can. The dead (those without Christ) hear His Word and believe it, and are made alive in Him (john 5:24-25).

                      Do you get the connection?

                      Notice the connection with this scripture:
                      The connection doesnt actually move the needle on the op, or my post you are replying to. Hearing, repenting, and believing all precede regeneration. You havent actually demonstrated otherwise, and cannot, because the bible teaches it the way its being presented to you.

                      The carnal or flesh man can not hear but the spiritual man can because he has been quickened out of death whether momentarily or permanently.
                      No scripture states this, this is a "connection" you made. God gave the "carnal" man a set of ears just like everyone else. Hearing the Word, and believing and understanding are all not the same thing.

                      Peter was not converted but he heard from God that Jesus was the Messiah therefore he must have been spiritually quickened but not permanently because Jesus had not died and rose out of the grave and thus not converted.
                      No. Peter hearing that the Messiah had come, and seeing Jesus for himself and believing, is the conversion. There was a space in time in which he did not know (or had not heard) this, to when he did and believed it.

                      Matt 13
                      15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

                      Peters own story shows that he heard, saw, understood, believed, and was converted (reborn) before Jesus died and rose.

                      Thanks for your input!


                      God bless you,

                      SeventhDay
                      And you as well.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by cadwell View Post

                        With his ears.



                        It seems as if you would like to jump back and forth between physical and spiritual death, which can confuse the issue. Lazarus wasnt "born again" in the sense its being discussed here, and his death and resurrection wasnt an example of whats being discussed either. The bible makes as much abundantly clear.



                        Yes they can. The dead (those without Christ) hear His Word and believe it, and are made alive in Him (john 5:24-25).



                        The connection doesnt actually move the needle on the op, or my post you are replying to. Hearing, repenting, and believing all precede regeneration. You havent actually demonstrated otherwise, and cannot, because the bible teaches it the way its being presented to you.



                        No scripture states this, this is a "connection" you made. God gave the "carnal" man a set of ears just like everyone else. Hearing the Word, and believing and understanding are all not the same thing.



                        No. Peter hearing that the Messiah had come, and seeing Jesus for himself and believing, is the conversion. There was a space in time in which he did not know (or had not heard) this, to when he did and believed it.

                        Matt 13
                        15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

                        Peters own story shows that he heard, saw, understood, believed, and was converted (reborn) before Jesus died and rose.



                        And you as well.
                        He abuses the idiom dead

                        In such contexts it refers to those separated from God because of rebellion

                        The nearest parallel we have in scripture is the prodigal son

                        Luke 15:14-32 (KJV)
                        14 And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land; and he began to be in want.
                        15 And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.
                        16 And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gave unto him.
                        17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!
                        18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,
                        19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.
                        20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.
                        21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.
                        22 But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:
                        23 And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:
                        24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
                        25 Now his elder son was in the field: and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard musick and dancing.
                        26 And he called one of the servants, and asked what these things meant.
                        27 And he said unto him, Thy brother is come; and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe and sound.
                        28 And he was angry, and would not go in: therefore came his father out, and intreated him.
                        29 And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:
                        30 But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.
                        31 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.
                        32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

                        Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by cadwell View Post

                          With his ears.



                          It seems as if you would like to jump back and forth between physical and spiritual death, which can confuse the issue. Lazarus wasnt "born again" in the sense its being discussed here, and his death and resurrection wasnt an example of whats being discussed either. The bible makes as much abundantly clear.



                          Yes they can. The dead (those without Christ) hear His Word and believe it, and are made alive in Him (john 5:24-25).



                          The connection doesnt actually move the needle on the op, or my post you are replying to. Hearing, repenting, and believing all precede regeneration. You havent actually demonstrated otherwise, and cannot, because the bible teaches it the way its being presented to you.



                          No scripture states this, this is a "connection" you made. God gave the "carnal" man a set of ears just like everyone else. Hearing the Word, and believing and understanding are all not the same thing.



                          No. Peter hearing that the Messiah had come, and seeing Jesus for himself and believing, is the conversion. There was a space in time in which he did not know (or had not heard) this, to when he did and believed it.

                          Matt 13
                          15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

                          Peters own story shows that he heard, saw, understood, believed, and was converted (reborn) before Jesus died and rose.



                          And you as well.
                          I can see your reasoning is different than mine but scriptures show that Peter was converted after Jesus death and resurrection.

                          We will have to let the Spirit judge this matter so let us wait on him.

                          God bless you,

                          SeventhDay

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by SeventhDay View Post

                            I can see your reasoning is different than mine but scriptures show that Peter was converted after Jesus death and resurrection.

                            We will have to let the Spirit judge this matter so let us wait on him.

                            God bless you,

                            SeventhDay

                            Peters conversion is off topic as far as I can tell, since you mentioned it without actually explaining what point you were trying to make in bringing it up. So it appears that you chose not to deal with the subject at hand, changed the subject, and decided to bow out because we cannot agree on the changed subject. Thats some serious zig-zagging right there lol. What does his conversion have to do with whether a person must be born again before they can believe? You said one cannot believe unless they are made alive, are you saying peter didnt believe (and thus was dead) until after the resurrection? Is that what Jesus told him?

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by cadwell View Post


                              Peters conversion is off topic as far as I can tell, since you mentioned it without actually explaining what point you were trying to make in bringing it up. So it appears that you chose not to deal with the subject at hand, changed the subject, and decided to bow out because we cannot agree on the changed subject. Thats some serious zig-zagging right there lol. What does his conversion have to do with whether a person must be born again before they can believe? You said one cannot believe unless they are made alive, are you saying peter didnt believe (and thus was dead) until after the resurrection? Is that what Jesus told him?
                              He just does not want to believe the scriptures

                              Acts 2:38 (KJV)
                              38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

                              Ezekiel 18:30-31 (KJV)
                              30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
                              31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
                              Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by TomL View Post

                                He just does not want to believe the scriptures

                                Acts 2:38 (KJV)
                                38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

                                Ezekiel 18:30-31 (KJV)
                                30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
                                31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
                                That ezekiel 18 verse is similar to what peter told the crowd in acts 3:19 (repent, and be converted that you sins may be blotted out). No amount of diversion or scripture twisting can change the fact that the bible teaches repentance and faith before regeneration. That issue hasnt been directly addressed so far by anyone who believes it happens the other way.

                                Comment

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