Announcement

Collapse

Message to all users:

https://carm.org/forum-rules

Super Member Subscription
https://carm.org/carm-super-members-banner-ad-signup

As most of you are aware, we had a crash to forums and were down for over two days a while back. We did have to do an upgrade to the vbulletin software to fix the forums and that has created changes, VB no longer provide the hybrid or threaded forums. There are some issues/changes to the forums we are not able to fix or change. Also note the link address change, please let friends and posters know of the changed link to the forums. For now this is the only link available, https://forums.carm.org/vb5/ but if clicking on forum on carm.org homepage it will now send you to this link. (edited to add https: now working.

Again, we are working through some of the posting and viewing issues to learn how to post with the changes, you will have to check and test the different features, icons that have changed. You may also want to go to profile settings,since many of the notifications, information in profile, also to update/edit your avatar by clicking on avatar space, pull down arrow next to login for user settings.

Edit to add "How to read forums, to make it easier."
Pull down arrow next to login name upper right select profile, or user settings when page opens to profile,select link in tab that says Account. Then select/choose options, go down to Conversation Detail Options, Select Display mode Posts, NOT Activity, that selection of Posts will make the pages of discussions go to last post on last page rather than out of order that happens if you choose activity threads. Then be sure to go to bottom and select SAVE Changes in your profile options. You can then follow discussions by going through the pages, to the last page having latest responses. Then click on the other links Privacy, Notifications, to select viewing options,the forums get easier if you open all the tabs or links in your profile, user settings and select options. To join Super Member, pull down arrow next to login name, select User Settings and then click on tab/link at top that says Subscriptions.

Thank you for your patience and God Bless.

Diane S
https://carm.org/forum-rules
See more
See less

Does God Ordain Evil? Reference list!

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by beloved57 View Post

    How is man or the devil going to choose evil if they didnt have existence ? Use common sense !
    Tom replies

    They didn't. They chose evil when they did exist

    Do you deny God omniscience ?

    His ability to know the future ?

    are you an open theist ?
    Last edited by TomL; 02-16-19, 11:26 AM.
    Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

    Comment


    • Originally posted by TomL View Post

      Tom replies

      They didn't. They chose evil when they did exist

      Do you deny God omniscience ?

      His ability to know the future ?

      are you an open theist ?
      Ok. If God doesnt give being, nothing is done by man or devil, simple as that. Now did God predetermine to make man and the devil ? Yes or No

      Comment


      • Originally posted by beloved57 View Post

        Ok. If God doesnt give being, nothing is done by man or devil, simple as that. Now did God predetermine to make man and the devil ? Yes or No
        Tom replies

        So because god made man he determines his sinful actions ?

        Is that your argument /

        It does not follow

        further it is contrary to the scriptures as shown many times
        Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Sketo View Post
          Psalm 139:16 - “...in Your book were all written the days that were ordained for me, when as yet there was not one of them.”

          Psalm 135:6 - “Whatever the Lord pleases, He does....”

          Proverbs 16:33 - “The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord.”

          Isaiah 46:10 - “...My purpose will be established, and I will accomplish all My good pleasure.”

          Acts 17:26 - “...[God] determined their [all nations’] appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation.”

          Romans 8:28 - “And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God....”

          Ephesians 1:11 - “...[God] works all things after the counsel of His will.”

          <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

          Genesis 50:20 - “As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result....”

          (If the evil that Joseph’s brothers committed against him was meant by God for good, how can we escape the conclusion that God in some sense ordained it to happen?)

          Exodus 7:3 - “But I will harden Pharoah’s heart that I may multiply my signs and wonders against Egypt.”

          (See also Exodus 4:21 and 14:4, 8, and 17, which also speak of God hardening Pharoah’s heart, as well as the hearts of all the Egyptians. It is true that in some verses Pharoah is said to have hardened his own heart, but that does not negate the fact that God is explicitly said to have done it here. Thus the evil that Pharoah’s hard heart induced him to commit was in some sense ordained by God.)

          Deuteronomy 2:30 - “But Sihon king of Heshbon was not willing for us to pass through his land; for the Lord your God hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate , in order to deliver him into your hand, as he is today.”

          Joshua 11:20 - “For it was of the Lord to harden their [various peoples of the promised land’s] hearts, to meet Israel in battle in order that he might utterly destroy them, that they might receive no mercy.”

          Judges 9:23 - “Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimilech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimilech.”

          Judges 14:4 - “However, his father and mother did not know that it [Samson’s sinful intent to marry a Philistine woman, contrary to the Law] was of the Lord, for He was seeking an occasion against the Philistines.”

          1 Samuel 2:25 - “...But they [Eli’s sons] would not listen to the voice of their father, for the Lord desired to put them to death.”

          1 Samuel 16:14 - “Now the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord terrorized him.”

          (See also 1 Samuel 18:10-11, which gives an example of how this provoked an evil reaction from Saul. Although the fact that God sent the evil spirit does not necessarily prove that Saul’s evil reaction was actually ordained by God, it does show that it was at least in some sense intentionally provoked by God.)

          2 Samuel 12:11 - “Thus says the Lord, ‘Behold, I will raise up evil against you from your own household; I will even take your wives before your eyes and give them to your companion, and he will lie with your wives in broad daylight.’”

          2 Samuel 16:11 - “...Let him [Shimei] alone and let him curse, for the Lord has told him.”

          (Note that Shimei’s cursing of David was indeed a evil act, as he later acknowledged in 2 Samuel 19:20, and yet David said God had in some sense sent him to do it.)

          2 Samuel 24:1 - “Now again the anger of the Lord burned against Israel, and it incited David against them to say, ‘Go, number Israel and Judah.’”

          (Note that the parallel account in 1 Chronicles 21:1 says that Satan was the one who moved David to do this. This apparent discrepancy can be explained by the realization that God was the ultimate cause even though Satan was the means or the immediate cause.)

          1 Kings 12:15 - “So the king [Rehoboam] did not listen to the people; for it was a turn of events from the Lord, that He might establish His word, which the Lord spoke through Ahijah the Shilonite to Jereboam the son of Nebat.”

          1 Kings 22:23 - “Now therefore, behold, the Lord has put a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets ....”

          (See also verses 20-22, and the parallel account in 2 Chronicles 18:18-22, which tell of God sending this deceiving spirit, for the purpose of enticing Ahab to go up to war at Ramoth-Gilead and fall.)

          2 Kings 24:19-20 - “He [Zedekiah] did evil in the sight of the Lord.... For through the anger of the Lord this came about....”

          (See also Jeremiah 52:2-3.)

          2 Chronicles 25:20 - “But Amaziah would not listen, for it was from God, that He might deliver them into the hand of Joash because they had sought the gods of Edom.”

          Job 2:3 - “...you [Satan] incited Me [God] against him [Job] to ruin him without cause.”

          (Note from the first chapter of Job that the ruin inflicted upon him consisted at least partly in evil actions by Satan and various men, notably the Sabeans and Chaldeans. Yet Job accepted all this as from the hand of the Lord in Job 1:21 and 2:10, in keeping with God’s own assessment of it here and in Job 42:11.)

          Job 42:11 - “...they consoled and comforted him for all the adversities that the Lord had brought on him....”

          Psalm 76:10 - “For the wrath of man shall praise You....”

          (Though this does not directly attribute man’s evil wrath to God’s sovereign plan, it does so indirectly by showing that even this is ultimately to His praise.)

          Psalm 105:25 - “He [God] turned their [the Egyptians’] heart to hate His people, to deal craftily with His servants.”

          Proverbs 16:4 - “The Lord has made everything for its own purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil.”

          Isaiah 6:10 - “Render the hearts of this people insensitive, their ears dull, and their eyes dim, otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and return and be healed.”

          (See also John 12:40, where this is paraphrased with an even stronger attribution of the people’s sinful blindness to God Himself.)

          Isaiah 63:17 - “Why, O Lord, do you cause us to stray away from Your ways and harden our heart from fearing You?”

          Jeremiah 6:21 - “Therefore, thus says the Lord, ‘Behold, I am laying stumbling blocks before this people....’”

          Lamentations 3:37-38 - “Who is there who speaks and it comes to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it? Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both good and ill go forth?

          Ezekiel 38:10,16 - “ Thus says the Lord God, ‘It will come about on that day, that thoughts will come into your mind and you will devise an evil plan...and you will come up against My people... I will bring you against My land, so that the nations may know Me when I am sanctified through you before their eyes, O Gog.’”

          Amos 3:6 - “...If a calamity occurs in a city has not the Lord done it?

          (Note that the context of this verse shows it refers to calamity caused by another nation’s attack, not simply a natural disaster or accident—see Amos 3:11.)

          John 15:25 - “But they have done this [hated Jesus and the Father] to fulfill the word that is written in their Law, ‘They hated Me without a cause.’”

          Acts 2:23 - “This Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.”

          Acts 4:27-28 - “For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.

          Romans 9:18 - “So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

          Romans 9:32-33 - “... They stumbled over the stumbling stone, just as it is written, ‘Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense....’”

          Romans 11:8 - “...God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes to see not and ears to hear not, down to this very day.”

          Romans 11:32 - “For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.”

          1 Corinthians 5:5 - “I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh....”

          (This shows an example of the evil work of Satan being ordained by God for a good purpose, namely the destruction of the flesh of the sinning believer.)

          2 Corinthians 12:7 - “...for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me—to keep me from exalting myself!”

          (If Paul’s thorn could be described as a messenger of Satan, it certainly seems reasonable to see Satan’s evil activity behind it. Yet it was ultimately given to Paul by God , so He apparently ordained this harassment of Paul by Satan.)

          2 Thessalonians 2:11 - “For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false.”

          1 Peter 2:8 - “...they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed.

          Revelation 17:17 - “For God has put it in their hearts to execute His purpose by having a common purpose, and by giving their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God will be fulfilled.”
          Like some teach without understanding the Scriptures by teaching that God is exceeding;u duplicitous because He causes people to sin yet warns people not to sin, and then on top of that, holds people accountable for what He causes.

          All the Scriptures above are accurate and true when understood properly. The people in Romans 9:18 are shown mercy because they believed the Scriptures that revealed God's promise of One to come. They indeed were the remnant of Jews (and Gentiles that God prepared aforehand for the coming of the Son. God already knew them because they believed His promise. (SEE Romans 4. People who teach differently do not understand where Paul starts in Romans-----Paul start with GOD WHO PROMISED (see Romans 1 and Romans 4). Paul also teaches about people that believed the Scriptures (Hence God) (Romans 3:1-3. Of course God chooses sinners that turn to Him. All of Scriptures is God's witness to the Son as the only way of salvation.

          To reject Christ is to reject what God says in the Scriptures (breathed by Him). Note, both the disciples and Paul use the Scriptures to persuade. Those that rejected Christ were those that did not pursue by faith----therefore they stumbled over the ROCK that God promised.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by TomL View Post

            Tom replies

            https://forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/th...63#post5827563

            better to just believe god than call other heretics

            Deuteronomy 30:10-19 (KJV)
            10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.
            11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
            12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
            13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
            14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.
            15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
            16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
            17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;
            18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
            19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
            I should make that legalistic, freewill heretics. Deuteronomy is law, not gospel.

            Rom. 3:20 (KJV) Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
            John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by TomL View Post

              Tom replies

              Your problem is twofold (at least)

              First you must prove God actively caused them to crucify Christ rather than just use their evil intension he know of to bring about his redemptive purpose
              You have ignored "DETERMINATIVE COUNSEL", in the passage I quoted (as I expected you would). This is the kind of thing that freewill heretics usually do.
              John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by David1701 View Post

                You have ignored "DETERMINATIVE COUNSEL", in the passage I quoted (as I expected you would). This is the kind of thing that freewill heretics usually do.
                Tom replies

                No I did not ignore it

                There is a world of difference between God redeeming particular evil determinations of evil men and using it for a good purpose and God determining all the evil determinations of evil men
                with no redemptive purpose

                It is absolutely mind blowing

                Say Calvinism is determinism and a Calvinist gets angry and accuses you of misrepresentation

                Say determinism makes God the author of sin and a Calvinist gets angry and again you are accused of misrepresenting Calvinism

                Say God does not determine all the sins of man a Calvinist posts in opposition to prove God does determine all of man's sin

                Is something not wrong with this picture ?

                In any case the bible denies God determines man's sin

                1 John 2:16 (KJV)
                16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

                James 1:12-13 (KJV)
                12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
                13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

                Jeremiah 7:31 (KJV)
                31 And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.

                Jeremiah 7:31 (NIV2011)
                31 They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire—something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind.

                1 Corinthians 10:13 (KJV)
                13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
                Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

                Comment


                • Originally posted by TomL View Post
                  No God is not the source of mans evil deeds. He is a holy God

                  Making God the determiner of sin makes him not holy
                  Indeed it does imply that HE is not holy, ie dedicated to HIMself as righteous...

                  Light cannot create dark. In its essence it destroys darkness.
                  Only when something impedes the light does darkness result.
                  Light cannot impede itself...light cannot create darkness.

                  Light, moral righteousness, cannot create that which is not light, ie, that which is not morally righteous, evil, dark, but only when someone impedes HIS righteousness by a free will decision to go against HIS righteousness and impede it is dark, evil, the result.

                  Those who believe GOD creates evil and evil people have exchanged the truth for a lie: Rom 1:21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified Him as God nor gave thanks to Him, but they became futile in their thinking and darkened in their foolish hearts.

                  I champion GOD’s holiness:
                  - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
                  - Evil is creature-created by their free will.

                  I champion Our Free will:
                  - All were created with a free will able to chose for HIM or against HIM.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by David1701 View Post

                    This is not an invitation to a discussion with this poster; I simply want to prove that his claim that "Making God the determiner of sin makes him not holy." is contrary to Scripture and should be rejected by all who believe the Bible.

                    Acts 2:23 (KJV) Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

                    The freewill heretics love to focus on foreknowledge (which they misrepresent) but they completely ignore the part I've bolded - God's determinate counsel.

                    The people who illegally had Jesus scourged, then crucified (the most wicked actions ever perpetrated by man) did so by the DETERMINATE COUNSEL of God (i.e. his counsel determined that it would happen), which, in turn, means that an interpretation of passive knowledge of what would happen is IMPOSSIBLE for "foreknowledge" here.
                    Agreed, all these things happened by HIS determinate will to achieve HIS ends but their sinfulness, the reason they were so hostile to Christ and YHWH, was NOT DETERMINED by HIM but arose by their free will decision to rebel against HIS call to them to put their faith in HIM pre-earth, pre-conception.

                    You are telling me that HE manipulates sinners to do HIS will to further HIS plan of the redemption of the sinful elect. I know HE does that so I agree with this but I do NOT agree that this means HE created them evil to do these evil deeds. Rather HE uses the sinfulness of those who made themselves evil by their free will decision to be rebellious to HIM to make good out of their desire to do evil.
                    I champion GOD’s holiness:
                    - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
                    - Evil is creature-created by their free will.

                    I champion Our Free will:
                    - All were created with a free will able to chose for HIM or against HIM.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by ttruscott View Post

                      Indeed it does imply that HE is not holy, ie dedicated to HIMself as righteous...

                      Light cannot create dark. In its essence it destroys darkness.
                      Only when something impedes the light does darkness result.
                      Light cannot impede itself...light cannot create darkness.

                      Light, moral righteousness, cannot create that which is not light, ie, that which is not morally righteous, evil, dark, but only when someone impedes HIS righteousness by a free will decision to go against HIS righteousness and impede it is dark, evil, the result.

                      Those who believe GOD creates evil and evil people have exchanged the truth for a lie: Rom 1:21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified Him as God nor gave thanks to Him, but they became futile in their thinking and darkened in their foolish hearts.
                      It really is an affront to God's character to imagine God determines the evil sins of man
                      Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by TomL View Post

                        Tom replies

                        So because god made man he determines his sinful actions ?

                        Is that your argument /

                        It does not follow

                        further it is contrary to the scriptures as shown many times

                        Now did God predetermine to make man and the devil ? Yes or No

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by beloved57 View Post


                          Now did God predetermine to make man and the devil ? Yes or No
                          Tom replies

                          Yes and your argument still is a non sequitur

                          Tom replies

                          So because god made man he determines his sinful actions ?

                          Is that your argument /

                          It does not follow

                          further it is contrary to the scriptures as shown many times
                          Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by TomL View Post

                            Tom replies

                            Yes and your argument still is a non sequitur

                            Tom replies

                            So because god made man he determines his sinful actions ?

                            Is that your argument /

                            It does not follow

                            further it is contrary to the scriptures as shown many times
                            Ok then. God purposed and ordained sin and evil into His World lest you think God didn't already know before He created men and devil they'll be responsible for sinning. Was God unaware of the actions that His creatures would perform after He created them ? Yes or No

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by beloved57 View Post

                              Ok then. God purposed and ordained sin and evil into His World lest you think God didn't already know before He created men and devil they'll be responsible for sinning. Was God unaware of the actions that His creatures would perform after He created them ? Yes or No
                              Knowing of and determining sin are two different things

                              God is holy that is separate from sin

                              You however destroy his holiness making him the author of sin



                              Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by TomL View Post

                                Knowing of and determining sin are two different things

                                God is holy that is separate from sin

                                You however destroy his holiness making him the author of sin


                                Answer the question please

                                . Was God unaware of the actions that His creatures would perform after He created them ? Yes or No

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X