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Does God Ordain Evil? Reference list!

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  • Originally posted by beloved57 View Post

    Answer the question please

    . Was God unaware of the actions that His creatures would perform after He created them ? Yes or No
    Tom replies

    I believe I already told you yes

    but


    Knowing of and determining sin are two different things

    God is holy that is separate from sin

    Your theology however destroys his holiness making him the author of sin

    It makes God both criminal and cop , arsonist and fireman
    Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

    Comment


    • Originally posted by TomL View Post

      Tom replies

      I believe I already told you yes

      but


      Knowing of and determining sin are two different things

      God is holy that is separate from sin

      Your theology however destroys his holiness making him the author of sin

      It makes God both criminal and cop , arsonist and fireman
      If you say yes, then you blaspheme God because you dont believe He knew the actions of His creatures before He created them. You dont believe God is Omniscience !

      Comment


      • Originally posted by ttruscott View Post

        Agreed, all these things happened by HIS determinate will to achieve HIS ends [B]but [/B]their sinfulness, the reason they were so hostile to Christ and YHWH, was NOT DETERMINED by HIM but arose by their free will decision to rebel against HIS call to them to put their faith in HIM pre-earth, pre-conception.
        The part I've underlined is unscriptural nonsense! There is precisely zero biblical support for this anti-Christian fantasy.

        You are telling me that HE manipulates sinners to do HIS will to further HIS plan of the redemption of the sinful elect.
        I said NOTHING about manipulation, as I've told you before.

        I know HE does that so I agree with this but I do NOT agree that this means HE created them evil to do these evil deeds. Rather HE uses the sinfulness of those who made themselves evil by their free will decision to be rebellious to HIM to make good out of their desire to do evil.
        Ever since Adam fell, we are all born evil. This is why everyone who is unregenerate sins habitually.

        Ps. 51:5 (HCSB) Indeed, I was guilty when I was born; I was sinful when my mother conceived me.

        This is King David's confession, whom God, later in David's life, calls "a man after my own heart".
        John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by TomL View Post

          Tom replies

          No I did not ignore it

          There is a world of difference between God redeeming particular evil determinations of evil men and using it for a good purpose and God determining all the evil determinations of evil men
          with no redemptive purpose

          Lurkers should note the twisting involved in the above sentence. Here is what Scripture says.

          Acts 2:23 (KJV) Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

          Acts 4:27,28 (KJV)
          27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
          28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

          ---The Bible (not the other poster's claims) says that Herod, Pontius Pilate, the Gentiles and people of Israel did what God had previously determined to be done; but the other poster says that God "redeemed" the evil determinations of people.

          It's obvious that these are very different. God's people will believe the Bible, not that other poster.
          John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by beloved57 View Post

            If you say yes, then you blaspheme God because you dont believe He knew the actions of His creatures before He created them. You dont believe God is Omniscience !
            Tom replies

            hello

            I affirmed his does know the action of his creatures before he created them

            your statement is confused
            Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

            Comment


            • tom

              I affirmed his does know the action of his creatures before he created them
              No you didnt, so you problems keeping up with what you are posting. But in any case, since God knows the choices His creatures will make before they exist, evil choices, the question now is could God had He so willed, made His creatures so that they would not choose sinfully ? Or could He have kept them from sinning Yes or No ?

              Comment


              • Originally posted by beloved57 View Post
                tom



                No you didnt, so you problems keeping up with what you are posting. But in any case, since God knows the choices His creatures will make before they exist, evil choices, the question now is could God had He so willed, made His creatures so that they would not choose sinfully ? Or could He have kept them from sinning Yes or No ?
                Tom replies

                You better read again

                previously

                . Was God unaware of the actions that His creatures would perform after He created them ? Yes or No



                Tom replies

                I believe I already told you yes

                but



                Knowing of and determining sin are two different things


                God is holy that is separate from sin


                Your theology however destroys his holiness making him the author of sin

                It makes God both criminal and cop , arsonist and fireman

                Last edited by TomL; 02-17-19, 12:57 PM.
                Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

                Comment


                • Originally posted by TomL View Post
                  It really is an affront to God's character to imagine God determines the evil sins of man
                  IF determines means to "cause to be evil" then yes. If it means to direct the self caused/chosen evil of a person to go in a certain direction, then no. Fair?
                  I champion GOD’s holiness:
                  - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
                  - Evil is creature-created by their free will.

                  I champion Our Free will:
                  - All were created with a free will able to chose for HIM or against HIM.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by beloved57 View Post
                    Now did God predetermine to make man and the devil ? Yes or No
                    Sure - AFTER THEY CHOSE TO BE EVIL by their free will.
                    I champion GOD’s holiness:
                    - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
                    - Evil is creature-created by their free will.

                    I champion Our Free will:
                    - All were created with a free will able to chose for HIM or against HIM.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by beloved57 View Post

                      Ok then. God purposed and ordained sin and evil into His World lest you think God didn't already know before He created men and devil they'll be responsible for sinning.
                      The world is not all of creation. When HE created everyone HIS image in the Spirit word, He did NOT know who would choose to be evil, either eternally evil or temporarily evil as proven by the fact that if HE had known before their creation who would end in hell, HE WOULD NOT HAVE CREATED THEM. Their end in hell proves that HE held HIS omniscience in abeyance or because HE did not create the results of their free will decisions and HE only knows HIS works, Acts 15:18, HE did not know those results before the person created them.

                      IF at the moment of choice everyone created in HIS image had chosen to accept YHWH's claims to be our GOD and HIS Son our savior then the heavenly marriage would have started at that moment and if HE then decided to create a physical universe it would have contained no sin, no death and no suffering. Ever.

                      Since some did rebel against HIS claims etc then this world HE created for these sinners IS full of the consequences of sin, death, evil and suffering and is doomed to destruction.


                      Was God unaware of the actions that His creatures would perform after He created them ? Yes or No
                      YES, HE was unaware! GOD does not create as a work the results of our free will decisions. HE does know the results of the decisions of a sinner whose will is enslaved by the addictive nature of evil so HE knows all the actions of mankind before rebirth.

                      Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. If the results of our free will decisions are not part of HIS works, that is, not a part of HIS creative decrees, then HE does not know them.

                      I remember you pretending that you could not even understand this argument so I write it out again for any other reader who might appreciate it.
                      I champion GOD’s holiness:
                      - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
                      - Evil is creature-created by their free will.

                      I champion Our Free will:
                      - All were created with a free will able to chose for HIM or against HIM.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by ttruscott View Post

                        Sure - AFTER THEY CHOSE TO BE EVIL by their free will.
                        You not making sense.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by ttruscott View Post
                          The world is not all of creation. When HE created everyone HIS image in the Spirit word, He did NOT know who would choose to be evil, either eternally evil or temporarily evil as proven by the fact that if HE had known before their creation who would end in hell, HE WOULD NOT HAVE CREATED THEM. Their end in hell proves that HE held HIS omniscience in abeyance or because HE did not create the results of their free will decisions and HE only knows HIS works, Acts 15:18, HE did not know those results before the person created them.

                          IF at the moment of choice everyone created in HIS image had chosen to accept YHWH's claims to be our GOD and HIS Son our savior then the heavenly marriage would have started at that moment and if HE then decided to create a physical universe it would have contained no sin, no death and no suffering. Ever.

                          Since some did rebel against HIS claims etc then this world HE created for these sinners IS full of the consequences of sin, death, evil and suffering and is doomed to destruction.


                          YES, HE was unaware! GOD does not create as a work the results of our free will decisions. HE does know the results of the decisions of a sinner whose will is enslaved by the addictive nature of evil so HE knows all the actions of mankind before rebirth.

                          Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. If the results of our free will decisions are not part of HIS works, that is, not a part of HIS creative decrees, then HE does not know them.

                          I remember you pretending that you could not even understand this argument so I write it out again for any other reader who might appreciate it.
                          You serve a a different god than I do. The God i serve isn't unaware of anything.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by beloved57 View Post
                            If you say yes, then you blaspheme God because you dont believe He knew the actions of His creatures before He created them. You dont believe God is Omniscience !
                            Where does it say in the Bible that the pagan Greek definition that what HE knows is "all that can be known for eternity past to eternity future?" is the truth? Acts 15:18 says HE knows all of HIS works since the beginning of the world, ie, so it puts the end to the pagan definition forever but the Church fathers who idolized the Greeks brought it into the Church and you still are under its sway...

                            BUT YOUR definition blasphemes GOD by having HIM create those HE KNOWS will go to hell ! a doctrine that contains NO love, NO righteousness and NO justice yet you are satisfied with it because you feel you must deny our pre-earth existence. So be it.
                            I champion GOD’s holiness:
                            - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
                            - Evil is creature-created by their free will.

                            I champion Our Free will:
                            - All were created with a free will able to chose for HIM or against HIM.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by TomL View Post

                              Tom replies

                              hello

                              I affirmed his does know the action of his creatures before he created them

                              your statement is confused
                              Look at his question again, Tom, it is backwards to the usual way of asking about HIS omniscience....ie, yes affirms HE does NOT know.
                              I champion GOD’s holiness:
                              - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
                              - Evil is creature-created by their free will.

                              I champion Our Free will:
                              - All were created with a free will able to chose for HIM or against HIM.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by beloved57 View Post
                                You not making sense.
                                Your failure to understand is that you believe our conception / birth on earth is our creation and every time you hear I believe we were created long before our conception on earth you metaphorically put your fingers in your ears, waggle them and claim I make no sense. Bin here before but at least now you are polite about it.
                                I champion GOD’s holiness:
                                - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
                                - Evil is creature-created by their free will.

                                I champion Our Free will:
                                - All were created with a free will able to chose for HIM or against HIM.

                                Comment

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